ALC Game #9: Incas/Huayna Capac

Well done so far in tech trading and expansion. I applaud your decision to pass on a cultural victory. I think it is too early to decide between domination and space race at this time. After you have your caravels and have circumnavigated the world first [that could be important], you will be in a much better position to determine if domination is possible.

Meanwhile, I would fully settle everything on your current island,build infrastructure like mad, keep the army to a minimum with just a quick reaction force should Alex come calling. After you make contact with the other AI's and tech trade as much as possible, I suggest you convert to your preferred religion for the building and happiness bonuses. On you island you don't need to worry immediately about offending a particular AI with your religious views.

In the mid-term befriend Hattie, build an invasion force of maceman and cats on her land and take out Alex keeping only his best cities. Build the FP in one of the first cities you take from him to keep down costs. After Alex is gone and some R & R, it will be time to take down Hattie. With both islands you will be well positioned to either go for the moon or mount a climactic invasion with grenadiers/tanks to earn an impressive domination victory with your agg/fin Incans.
 
I would like to see a diplomatic victory- has there been one in the ALC? The isolation factor makes this a challenge in some ways but since diplo requires some warmongering, whereas domination will require all out invasions, it seems like a realistic possibility.
 
You dont realy need navy/military to keep the AI out of your land...
 
Tyrant Roger said:
Well done so far in tech trading and expansion. I applaud your decision to pass on a cultural victory. I think it is too early to decide between domination and space race at this time. After you have your caravels and have circumnavigated the world first [that could be important], you will be in a much better position to determine if domination is possible.

.....SNIP

I think Tyrant Roger has pretty much stated my position. Another vote against Cultural for me. Go with a late expansion onto Alexander/Hattie island after a good buildup phase. Befriend the other AIs and then decide for Space Race if there are no other peacemongers around or if Mali/India etc. show up, go for domination!

In any case, keep it up!
 
I'd vote domination.

This is a game, and we all agree that it can be won now. So winning isn't the thing, having fun is.

So go domination, and I'd be thrilled to see a semi-modern combat involving multiple continents and invasions. Mabye we can even hope to see a carrier in action...?

If going for domintation, would it make sense to kill Alex when macemen kicks in, and staying friendly with Hath while his former land is converted to the holy incan cause? To keep a trading partner and stuff. Hath could even be "saved" till after you did some warring on some other distant continent mabye? Or is it best to kill and lay waste before moving on.

Don't have much experience in continents myself.
 
Just in case anyone wants to know, if a conquest and domination victory happen on the same turn, you get the conquest movie. I was trying to vassalize the entire planet and only had Tokugawa(from the other continent) left. Imediately after razing Kyoto(which I normally would have kept but the game was over), I was lucky enough to check the victory screen and saw that I had 67% land and 72% population(a city had just come out of revolt). Luckily, burning his second city made old Toki a bit more accepting to his defeat, and I got a Conquest, Yay! The victory screen still said that I had 5 rivals remaining, however. I had to kill Bismark, it was just too early to keep a rubbish vassal.

EDIT: Also, I think that its best to kill your neighbours before the other neighbourhood meets them. It just avoids all of that diplomatic mess...
 
Less confident of my warmaking skills than you folks, I'd certainly keep a cultural victory in my back pocket. You absolutely do NOT need 3 cottage farm cities for a cultural win - I've won culture but never had that.

I regards to specifics - I'd pop the big Mo for theology. A shrine is killer good if you have a widely-spread religion and some $ multipliers - but you have neither, and won't for a while. Right now a shrine is barely more useful than just settling the guy - and that's certainly not a good use! It's not that hard to get another prophet - throw some priests into the mix of a GP city and he'll show up eventually. Theology though a) keeps a culture win in your pocket b) keeps another religion from the AI c) gives you theology, a most handy civic if Alex makes up with his Buddha Buddy and needs another target for his random rampages and d) gives you another happiness boost. You'll get c) eventually anyway but if the AI beats you to theo you'll probably never see the others.

b) doesn't seem like much but when your caravels set out in a few centuries you might actually run into an atheist out there. Always handy when you've got a religion collection!

I'd also recommend you get your coastal cities down toot sweet. Hattie's going to be looking to expand as soon as one of her cities can crank out a settler, and that probably won't be long. You will have a major headache in many ways if she drops one in on you (misplaced city from an ally with cultural grabbing resources and stopping your ninth city - ick!)
 
Do keep in mind that if we don't go for a cultural win, it's good for the AI to have as many religions as possible, so as to encourage religious differences. This is why I'm hesitating to use Moses for Theology.

Alternatively, I could wait until Christianity is founded and then pop him for Theology. That seems kind of perverse, though.

At any rate, if and when I use a GP for a shrine, the Hindu one makes the most sense, as the capital will make a better commerce city (and home for Wall Street) than my other holy city, Tiwanaku.
 
> it's good for the AI to have as many religions as possible, so as to
> encourage religious differences. This is why I'm hesitating to use Moses
> for Theology.

Ooh, Machiavellian. :cool:
 
Heres my view on things. You should take over hattys continent before anyone else finds you. This way, you can keep good relations with new civs JUST in case they like hatty and the other guy.

This would also help you expand and get more land, which in the long run would help in both the space race and diplomatic victory. If by some oddball of a chance you are going for a cultural victory, settle down quick and start cranking out those great artists, but this probably isn't a good game to go for a cultural victory.

I would definitally consider abusing your aggressive trait early and send a force over to the other civ first, having hatty help you out in the war, and then going after hatty. From there I would set out to find the rest of the world, possibly trading a world map from hatty right before you finish her off (if possible).

Hopefully you'll remain unknown from the rest of the world while you do this. Get as many techs as possible out of those civs before going to war though.

Also, I would switch to Hattys religion to butter her up right before you go after the other civ. This way, she's much more inclined to help. After she says she'll help, switch back to your other religion for full effect of your civics.

You'll be a shoe in for a space race victory this way as long as you find some people shortly after winning over the other continent and keep up in techs while you develop your science cities.
 
Realistically, Cultural would be much harder than SPace Race with Tiwanaku's position. It would be tricky to keep it in the "back pocket" without being highly restrictive on what Tiwanaku can build. Not worth it for a back-up victory method.

Your continent looks large enough to churn out plenty of research. I think that even if you are against Mali, you'd be able to out-tech him. Particularly if you tech trade with Hatty. So for me, Space Race looks good.

I'm worried that Domination or Conquest would be difficult. With the ocean, you could be restricted to two victims until Astronomy. Could be getting late, particularly if you're against a decent techer like Mail or India.
 
Technocactus said:
Realistically, Cultural would be much harder than SPace Race with Tiwanaku's position. It would be tricky to keep it in the "back pocket" without being highly restrictive on what Tiwanaku can build. Not worth it for a back-up victory method.

Your continent looks large enough to churn out plenty of research. I think that even if you are against Mali, you'd be able to out-tech him. Particularly if you tech trade with Hatty. So for me, Space Race looks good.

I'm worried that Domination or Conquest would be difficult. With the ocean, you could be restricted to two victims until Astronomy. Could be getting late, particularly if you're against a decent techer like Mail or India.

couldn't agree more!
You now have to choose (and Sisiutil just did!) either going for cultural or not.
Backpocket thing is doable in some situations but not here. And domination is doable, but would require invading 2 continents (at least :crazyeye: ), including one you know nothing about.
Having said no cultural, i would try to tech hard and fast towards space while building enough good cities to prepare for the race.
In this condition, you may build barracks for the sole purpose of staying "high" in power. You still don't use the aggressive trait, but your start is on an island... not an ideal one for being aggressive.
 
Don't look like Alex or Hatty have a religion of their own atm (judging from screenshots).If you're going for hindu shrine is it worth considering building some missionaries to convert Alex; if for instance Alex was Hindu and Hatty was Judaic then you'd have your religious conflict in the north and makesome money out of it in the process.
Objective of occupying south island seems solid; if the ocean tiles are in your borders then in the event of war borders get closed automatically so no risk of invasion before astronomy.
 
pigswill said:
Don't look like Alex or Hatty have a religion of their own atm (judging from screenshots).If you're going for hindu shrine is it worth considering building some missionaries to convert Alex; if for instance Alex was Hindu and Hatty was Judaic then you'd have your religious conflict in the north and makesome money out of it in the process.
Objective of occupying south island seems solid; if the ocean tiles are in your borders then in the event of war borders get closed automatically so no risk of invasion before astronomy.
Looking at the religous advisor we can see that Buddhism was founded by Alex in Athens and that it has 21% of world pop compared with our Hinduism having 9%. Also Confucianism has been founded on the other continent and has 20%. The religious alignments are already becoming settled.
 
UncleJJ said:
Looking at the religous advisor we can see that Buddhism was founded by Alex in Athens and that it has 21% of world pop compared with our Hinduism having 9%. Also Confucianism has been founded on the other continent and has 20%. The religious alignments are already becoming settled.

Right, all the more reason to leave theology and go for the shrine.
You don't need another religion, since you don't go for cultural.
You don't need theocracy since you don't go to war now.
The shrine is a bit weak now, but you won't get so many prophets after the GL. You can try sending out missionaries to hatty for a while...
Since she didn't found buddhism, she won't stick to it very hard + she's spiritual so she may switch as soon as it is beneficial.
 
Does Hatty have the pre-requisites for Theology or Philosophy? If so, it might be worth holding back on trades of those so that she doesn't found a religion herself. Not only do you want to avoid founding another religion, you also want them founded on the hidden continent to stir things up there.

I would definitely try to puch Hinduism onto Hatty, sooner rather than later. I would also build the Hindu shrine. It may not seem much gold per turn but it's still early and you'll be taking that income for the rest of the game. If you want to be really efficient, and limit the number of turns you're building missionaries, focus you missionaries on the cities you're likely to keep after conquest.
 
Pogel said:
If you want to be really efficient, and limit the number of turns you're building missionaries, focus you missionaries on the cities you're likely to keep after conquest.

and don't send missionaries to cities without religion, it will spread all alone
 
Consider diplomatic victory. All it's about is managing relations with the other continent. If there are two powers that you can get a shared civic diplomatic bonus with (eg. two that like Representation or one that likes State Property and another that likes US), you'd a good chance at it. Of course that's assuming you haven't racked up more than a few negatives with them and that you have enough population on your own by conquering most or all of the nearby continent.
 
Round 6: to 1000 AD

A very interesting round--much revealed, and some important decisions to make, of course!

I started by using Moses, my Great Prophet:

ALC9_1000AD_01.jpg


Yep, I decided on the Hindu shrine. As I mentioned in a previous post, it will help finance expansion; remember that as my new cities become Hindu, they'll add to its revenue, and once they're done I can spread it to others for more gold. I also hoped that the shrine might help spread the religion automatically, which it did--a little bit. Hey, it saved me one missionary.

And as everyone suggested, I proceeded with the expansion, building three cities. The first one claimed the rice and the fish on the west coast, hence its non-Incan but infinitely easier to remember name:

ALC9_1000AD_02.jpg


The next one won't be a terrific city, but it fills in a gap in the map and keeps my neighbours from settling there:

ALC9_1000AD_03.jpg


And the last one will be a decent little fishing village way to the south:

ALC9_1000AD_04.jpg


That's all I managed for this round. My economy took a substantial hit from that, so I took the rest of the round to recover. Going by the Pogel's dotmap, I can fit in three more cities--a central one 1E of the copper, one on the south coast 1S of the cows, and a third one on the west coast 1N of the desert hill. If anyone has any better ideas, let me know! (And in case you were wondering, Hinduism spread on its own to Sushi; the other cities needed help.)

Tiwanaku also completed a wonder that will help those coastal cities pay for themselves:

ALC9_1000AD_05.jpg


As for Alexander and Hatty, they made peace, then went to war again, and look at what Alexander did:

ALC9_1000AD_06.jpg


In a way this wasn't such a bad thing. It removed the Egyptian cultural pressure, for starters; my borders quickly claimed that crucial ocean tile 2S 1W of Elephantine. And though my relations with Alexander were rocky, I managed to keep trade going and our borders open. It probably helped that I did no more tech trading with Hatty. I fear the writing is on the wall for our girl with the big hat, and by the time I can get north to do any rasslin' it'll be with Alexander.

To help out with the economy, I prioritized Civil Service, and once I had it, switched civics:

ALC9_1000AD_07.jpg


Of course, I can also build Macemen now! I think that either Ironville South or Golden Horse will make good military cities, though both need a lot of farms--GH in particular desperately needs chain farms, as does Lonely Mountain. IS has a lighthouse, but without a good food source, it will take several farms and several citizens before it can work any of the hills to its east.

I also, several turns before this, finished Optics and whipped out three Caravels. Yeah, I'm taking no chances. One went west from Tiwanaku along the Equator; one went west from Ironville, hugging the southern latitudes; and one went east from Khazak. The last one was in fact the first to make contact with the other continent and all of its civs on the last turn in the round:

ALC9_1000AD_08.jpg


So who else am I facing? Well, with so many of 'em, it's easier just to show you the diplomatic screen:

ALC9_1000AD_09.jpg


I should also add that Napoleon and Washington just made peace, and it seems obvious that poor ol' George came out of that as the one worse off. Napoleon is, in my experience, one of the worst neighbours to have--worse than Monty, even, because he's potentially dangerous throughout the whole game, and is quite willing to wipe out another civ.

Now the really important screen, however, is this one, with the tech standings:

ALC9_1000AD_10.jpg


I'm actually doing quite well in this regard. I have a number of techs I can trade to get almost everything on display here. Here's a list of the techs I have over and above each of the civs on the other continent:

  • Frederick and Washington don't have Civil Service, Alphabet, Compass, and Machinery.
  • Napoleon doesn't have Literature, Civil Service, and Optics.
  • Cyrus doesn't have Civil Service.

So Cyrus seems to be the biggest tech fiend. It's encouraging to see that he's the lone Christian, though he doesn't have the holy city. It looks like either Napoleon or Washington may have founded Christianity--they're the only ones with Theology, after all--but they're both Confucian, which Frederick founded. Interesting.

To conclude, here are a couple of screen shots of my half of the world:

ALC9_1000AD_11.jpg


ALC9_1000AD_12.jpg


Now on to the decision-making.

Well, the first thing I have to do is decide who I'm going to tech trade with, and what I'll offer and what I'll get. I almost have Currency so I won't be trading for that, but there a lot of other juicy offerings available across the pond. However, as soon as I start trading, I'm bound to tick somebody off.

I'd rather not tech trade with Alex or Hatty anymore, since I want every advantage when I come to take them out, so let's not consider them. I have very little to offer Cyrus and don't want to help him either, so let's rule him out. Frederick is tops in score despite lagging behind Cyrus technically--obviously he has a bigger empire--and I'm reluctant to help him out as well. That leaves the two dancing partners, Napoleon or Washington.

Even though Washington is the low man on the totem pole, he has the most techs to offer, so I'm very tempted to trade with him and let Naploeon whine about it all he wants. But it may be a good idea in the long run to stay on Napoleon's good side. If Washington is as badly off as he seems to be, Napoleon is bound to wipe him out before long. If I'm friendly with Nappy, he might even loosen up and trade Theology to me.

So what do you think of this plan: trade for every tech I can get from Napoleon, get Open Borders with him, Cyrus, and Frederick, and let Washington twist in the wind?

And what about the bigger picture? Time's passing by and I'm nowhere near ready to invade Alexander. Ironville South has been producing units, so I'm in a better defensive position, but not one to attack. An Astronomy slingshot from Liberalism is looking like a must; after Currency I should probably start the Liberalism bee-line with Philosophy (unless Frederick gets friendlier).
 
What victory are you looking for?

If it's space race or domination, you don't need to care much about good relations when trading other than trying to keep friendly relations with a good techer. Nappy isn't a good techer.
I'd go for trade with everyone except nappy and cyrus.
You could trade alphabet (litterature afterwards) and compass with frederick and washington, for a start. Even out the techs before letting anything "new" out. Machinery can offer a good trade too.
Trading CS isn't a good thing (bureaucracy is a really strong civic!), if you have a choice.

SO :
- I would trade alphabet + compass (+money if needed : he has currency ;) ) for theology from GW, alphabet + compass for calendar (needed for astronomy!) with frederick
- trade with hatty to help her as much as possible vs alex. It's pointless to try to keep alex "pleased" : he is already cautious, and even if you manage to please him, he'll attack anyway asap.
 
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