SE Economy Without Pyramid (i.e. Representation), Is It Feasible?

mutax2003

Rider of China, 4-3-3
Joined
Oct 26, 2005
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What do you guys think of running a specialist economy without the pyramid (i.e. representation)? Is it feasible for higher levels, such as monarch or emperor level? Also, in your food rich cities, is it better to:

(1) build or slave granary first, or library first?

(2) Assign two scientists when you reach the happiness limit or right away?

(3) Let the city governor handle citizen allocation?

On an alternate note, what should you do to ensure maximum city and cottage growth under a cottage economy?

Mutax2003
 
If your philosophical, I think you can get by without the pyramids because it's all about the great people. If you've got a couple of cities with an abundance of food and philosophical trait, it can be made to work.

As to your points:

1) This is going to depend on level difficulty. On prince and above, I'd say the library is more important. Due to the lower early happiness levels plus whipping infrastructure, your cities will grow back to their happiness level on an even keel without the granary, at least in the early game.

2) You still want your cities to grow, so don't stagnate the city just to get your specialists. Having an unhappy citizen or two is ok because you'll be whipping them away for infrastructure.

3) At your own risk. I don't let the city governor do anything for me.

Regarding the alternate note, if a city is below the happiness level, I try to keep the growth in cottage cities at higher than +2 food/turn while working as many cottages as possible. A grassland farm or two can help with this to increase the growth rate plus they're nice to have available in the event you want to whip in a cottage city. I guess some folks here would never say whip in a cottage city but when your hammers are <5/turn, it takes too long for my liking to build infrastructure. But that's just me.
 
Try the Philosophy Slingshot going through Codes of Law, Without the Priamids Stragety you generally fund your research by lightbulbing Greatpeople.
 
yes it can be done and i'm starting to change my mind about going for the pyramids thanks to acidsatyr :D
 
lol!
The day will come when people will realize that SE is not inferior to CE, rather superior!
Why people want to do something thats less powerfull?
 
in response 2 ur first question - yes. simple as that. build librarys asap and assign 1-2 scientists when grown 2 happiness cap. most of research will come from lightbulbing so representation is not as important as u might think
 
in response 2 ur first question - yes. simple as that. build librarys asap and assign 1-2 scientists when grown 2 happiness cap. most of research will come from lightbulbing so representation is not as important as u might think

You are absolutely right, Representation's bonus is greatly exaggerated by some people.

Consider the amount of effort and the benefits from the first 5 GS that are made in the game.

The first GS costs 100 GPP, the second 200 and so on. The first 5 will cost a total of 1500 GPP. If all these 1500 GPPs are from ordinary scientists run from several libraries then it will cost 500 scientist turns and hence 1000 food to get all 5 GS.

Assuming each GS is worth 1500 beakers, whether used as an academy, settled or lightbulbed, we get the following benefits

Beakers from 500 scientist turns = 1500 x 1.25 = 1875 with library bonus
Beakers from 5 GS = 7500
Total = 9375 beakers

That is an effective rate of return of 9.3 beakers per food spent on a specialist. Of course that food can come from a grassland farm and hence you can argue that the farm gives 9.3 beakers per turn over this period, beating the research produced by cottages and hamlets etc by an enormous margin.

A Philosophical leader will get an even better rate of return since he needs to only spend 250 scientist turns and 500 food to get the 5 GS. He therefore gets less beakers from the scientists, only 937. So in total he'll have 937 + 7500 = 8437 from 500 food. That is an astounding rate of 16.9 beakers per food over this period.

Adding Representation for the whole period would give another 1875 beakers (in the non Philosophical case) which is about a 20&#37; increase in total beakers and not the 100% increase that some people assume. This explains why taking the Pyramids gambit can actually slow early research down rather than speed it up. Getting more cities working scientists earlier gives a much faster return at this critical time.
 
^^Definitely true and nice stats to back the argument up. Actually it's even better, you get the techs (especially philosophy) fast so you can trade them away for other techs and good money. Essentially you get around 70&#37; of the techs between alphabet and education for free (with heavy trading). Typically i find myself researching cheap but valuable techs like literature, Drama , Col, Construction and the not so cheap civil service myself, the rest i get in return for philosophy.

Pyramids come in handy before alphabet (also for the happiness bonus), when researching civil service and after education.
 
the problem is in the heavy trading involved.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a convincted whore, planning my trades in advance.

But at some points in the game, you won't have good trading opportunities.
In every single game I had a point where I could only trade to 1 or 2 AIs, and at some points, they have nothing to offer.

It's mostly true at prince and monarch level (below, it's probably worse but I didn't play those levels for a while). At emperor, I wasn't able to get good value for CoL and philosophy, and ended up being very backward after a while (was first there and founded those confucianism and taoism, but just didn't get good techs for those).

My point is it's probably a better high level strat, but not so good at lower levels.
 
Yes no good tech trading partners make this strat more difficult.I don't see it that often but it's problematic if this happens. You probably have to go to war and beeline for optics in this case or do something smart with religion to get them pleased. Then again if you're rather isolated with uncooperative neighbours on emperor 2.08 you're in for a very difficult game anyway. I've won a few times on emperor (still losing most of them) but never in a situation as bleak as this, have to become a better and more war loving player for that i think.

As for getting bad value for Philosophy, i usually research Drama and literature fast, the combination of phil+drama will get something out of them.
Techs that i get this way are also traded of course. I can usually keep approximate tech parity until liberalism in this way.
 
The day will come when people will realize that SE is not inferior to CE, rather superior!
Why people want to do something thats less powerfull?

Is an SE always more powerful? How about in the case of the Financial civs? What if you have no trading partners? And what if your games tend to last until the later eras? Is an SE always more powerful at that stage?
 
Of course it is, look at what financial civ does for you. It forces you to lock all your cities in a low food output state. It stops you from abusing all those wonderful civics like Nationalism and slavery - you need to look a the production as well. How many times did you drafted multiple units from a single heavily cottaged city?
It effectively stops you from using culture slider. Its either culture or you research.
I never, ever build cottages pre Civil Service, if i ever build them. And by that time financial is a waste of trait.

Past republic/biology it is more powerful and flexible than heavily cottage based economy. Personal and other games, as well as theory had proven this many times.

But it is little harder to play it. Cottages you plant and forget about them.
 
LOL! I really don't care how people choose to play their games, I am just telling the facts! You play whatever you feel is best.

BTW, I used to treat financial as the best next thing after the slice of bread! Then i realized there is far superior way to play this game
 
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