G-Major 8: January Warlords Gauntlet

Sigh, and another defeat. :( I need help, hints, tips. I can manage to get up to liberalism first, and even managed to go onto a prolonged conquest. Though I suppose my conquering comes to late. But if I start earlier, the maintenance is eating me alive. Any hints about the timing?

I usually finish the oracle between turn 110 and 120 (after 125 its typically finished by an AI first).

But then it gets difficult. Even with marble close by, building the oracle means I'm limited to 2-3 cities at the time I switch to bureaucracy. Without oracle the tech race is lost at that time already. But with only 2-3 cities, the production power is rather low. So when I'm getting started with the keshiks (plus catapults) its usually already to late to use them efficiently.

I sometimes manage to carve a nice empire out of other (weaker) civs, but this cripples my economy, plus those cities usually ain't very well developed. So I'm stuck with my 3 powerhouses, which isn't enough to replace necessary losses from prolonged campaigns.

Oh, I should mention that I'm mostly playing on a great plains map. Pangea holds to much marble and worse, ivory (don't you hate those war elephants?) Anything with ocean supports the financial civs to much anyway.

So help please, I usually let my computer run 500 maps overnight, to get 2 games running each day ... and loosing sooner or later.
 
Hello Moonsinger

Would you please give us some hints:
What type of map to use?
With waht type of units to win? (Mounted or dismounted?)

Br. Bozso

I like the Fractal map. The land mass is usually smaller and the domination limit is around 51%. Note: There is a 30% chance that you have to abandon the game (usually after a 100 turns or so) if you think your continent isn't big enough.

On my first game, I build three cities with barracks and stables and focus on producing mostly Keshiks (some warriors at the beginning and catapults toward the end). There are two type of units promotion in my stack: Keshiks with Flanking II or combat II right from the start. When attacking the city, I use Flanking units first to soften up the defense (they have better chance to withdraw). I reached the domination limit around 650 AD.

On my second game, I aimed for Iron Working and built mostly swordmans (some axemans to help protect my stack and catapults toward the end). Since my capital had 4 Military Intructors, most of my swordmans started out with Raider III and combat I. The bad thing about swordman is that they move very slow. I reached to domination after 860 AD.

On my third game, I used a combination of swords and Keshiks. Keshiks to disrupt enemy resources and to hunt down their settler, and swordmans for attacking enemy city. I think this combination work best. My only problem was that my island wasn't big enough to trigger the domination win. I had to abandon this game because I didn't have the technology to search for the other continent. If I was going to finish this game, it would be long after 1000 AD.
 
Are you using the Oracle-CS slingshot at all, or going straight for the throat?
 
Well, i completed a game, but domination in 1715 probably will be the worst submission.
I know Moosinger is one the best players, but in 650 AD it's easy to face longbows, and keshiks can go to pasture horses and sheeps in this case.

I tried an (for my standards) aggressive start, and i managed to conquer Ghandi with the buddist holy city, but at the cost of a lot of keshiks.
I planned to conquer Asoka too (Ghandi was my western neighbor an Asoka the eastern), but LB comes around, so i had to research cats and elephants, then for knights and maces, took another civ and some city of another one, then i finished with cavalry, rifles and cannons.

I didn't thought to flanking II, should be a good strategy.

My game was a pangea map, medium sea level, and my start was definitely good for resouces and so on, not a dream start, but good.
I has some 6 GG, 5 to build academies, 1 as military instructor in a city with a WA.

If i was a bit more "mongol" probably i could have gained some 100 years, but no more.

I'm posting this to collect some good strategy hint from you guys, thanks in advance.

another question: if i submit my game, and improve my results in a new one, is this last counted in this gauntlet?
 
another question: if i submit my game, and improve my results in a new one, is this last counted in this gauntlet?

Your best two submissions are counted. It doesn't matter if you submit 100 games, only the best two are counted. In other words, submit away! :D
 
another question: if i submit my game, and improve my results in a new one, is this last counted in this gauntlet?
It depends on how you look at it. As Methos said, the best two will count towards the Quattromasters Challenge, but only the best will be listed in the Gauntlet winners list at the update.
 
Are you using the Oracle-CS slingshot at all, or going straight for the throat?

No Oracle slingshot for me. In fact, in all three games, I had never gotten CS.
 
I know Moosinger is one the best players, but in 650 AD it's easy to face longbows, and keshiks can go to pasture horses and sheeps in this case.

I saw some longbows after 850 AD. There were absolutely no longbows around 600 AD or 700 AD.
 
Thanks all for the answers, but i expect more from you (quote from CIV)
I got a suspect: i research Alpha for trade or extort techs, and often i trade it...
probably this is a mistake, AIs can speed their tech trades, ans this way feudalism comes faster and to more AIs.

Yes, i have to completely rethink my approach to a fast domination.
 
I got a suspect: i research Alpha for trade or extort techs, and often i trade it...
probably this is a mistake, AIs can speed their tech trades, ans this way feudalism comes faster and to more AIs.

I do that all the time. I like to research Alphabet and trade for most techs. Of course, for those expensive techs like Code of Laws, Mathematics, Currency, Calendar,..., etc. I force them down to 1 city then demand them to hand over their techs. This would also give my troops time to heal and regroup. Of course, 10 turns later, I eliminate them.

Btw, unless they are down to 1 city and losing their capital, they usually refuse to hand over their techs.
 
I like the Fractal map. The land mass is usually smaller and the domination limit is around 51%. Note: There is a 30% chance that you have to abandon the game (usually after a 100 turns or so) if you think your continent isn't big enough.

On my first game, I build three cities with barracks and stables and focus on producing mostly Keshiks (some warriors at the beginning and catapults toward the end). There are two type of units promotion in my stack: Keshiks with Flanking II or combat II right from the start. When attacking the city, I use Flanking units first to soften up the defense (they have better chance to withdraw). I reached the domination limit around 650 AD.

On my second game, I aimed for Iron Working and built mostly swordmans (some axemans to help protect my stack and catapults toward the end). Since my capital had 4 Military Intructors, most of my swordmans started out with Raider III and combat I. The bad thing about swordman is that they move very slow. I reached to domination after 860 AD.

On my third game, I used a combination of swords and Keshiks. Keshiks to disrupt enemy resources and to hunt down their settler, and swordmans for attacking enemy city. I think this combination work best. My only problem was that my island wasn't big enough to trigger the domination win. I had to abandon this game because I didn't have the technology to search for the other continent. If I was going to finish this game, it would be long after 1000 AD.

Thank you for the explanation. I will try to improve my result too.

Anyway SUPERSLUG do you think of having a a warlords gauntlet next time where you can win by any victory type and you can chose any civ but the highest score wins (so a milking gauntlet)? I think it would really need a different strategy?
 
Anyway SUPERSLUG do you think of having a a warlords gauntlet next time where you can win by any victory type and you can chose any civ but the highest score wins (so a milking gauntlet)? I think it would really need a different strategy?
That might be possible, sure.
 
Haven't there been enough milking with previous Minor (Huge Marathon whatever)?
 
Haven't there been enough milking with previous Minor (Huge Marathon whatever)?
Yeah, I was just thinking we need some FF ones before we hit score again. Although highest score would play considerably faster and different than time score.
 
Finally i finished both minor and major gauntlets, probably with the worst finish date.
Anyway, better submit a bad game than not submit at all.

I never played at quick speed before this minor, so i can be partially justify for have a later finish date with minor than in major.

The good side is that my learning process is progressing, and that for sure i'll avoid the quick speed with a warmogering target from now on.

If i'll have time, i'll try another attempt in the major, for now back to Gotm/Wotm, especially Wotm05 stimulates my curiosity.

Question: can i submit my Gotm/Wotm games for quattromasters?

edit: Thanks Methos, your answer is clear
 
Question: can i submit my Gotm/Wotm games for quattromasters?

No, you can find the answer in the HoF Rules under the Disallowed tab under the Map Generation heading.

It states:

HoF Rules said:
Map Generation
Only random maps may be used that you have generated yourself. You may not share maps with other players. You may only use each map once. GOTM maps are not acceptable.
 
Finally my major gauntlet done. One more game for quattromaster needed and I'm done. The 18th civ, so easy. 1316 is no date to boast with, but it is my first Prince level victory (conquest rushes don't count IMHO).

Interestingly I won this gauntlet with a free rolled map, while all (10 or so) tries using a mapfinder found map ended in disaster.

So I'm sorry superslug, it seems there is a new candidate for worst quattromaster ever now. ^^
 
Can be deleted, my mistake. ^^

PS: guys, go on, submit better games. You can't allow such a bad player as me to rank that high in a major gauntlet. ;)
 
First post :)

I've taken 3 attempts at this g-major to victory, and submitted two. Considering that the second submission should knock the first submission out of the number two spot, I thought I'd share.

I hadn't played a Warlords game on Prince difficulty before this; I'm used to more difficult settings. I also tend to be more Gandhi-like in my approach, preferring to crush my enemies with waves of calvary, infantry, or tanks.

First attempt was on a Pangaea map, with normal settings (barbarians, tribal villages, vassals), except high sealevels.

Discoveries: Archery (tribal village), Animal Husbandry, Horseback Riding, Mining, Agriculture, Bronze Working, Masonry, Iron Working, Fishing, Writing, Alphabet ...

Built two cities initially, because horses were not near my starting city. Built barracks and stables, then began pumping out Keshiks.

First war was with Julius, since he'd built two cities in the suburbs of Karakorum. Plus, I fear Praetorians. Since he had no copper, and hadn't hooked up his iron, he collapsed quickly (745-640 BC).

Next up was the man who stole my face, Qin Shi Huang. Showed him no mercy (520-445 BC).

Then I lost focus, played with the barbarians, and scattered my armies. In the meantime, Stalin attacks Asoka. Since I don't trust Stalin either, I finally reassembled my hordes and invaded. His cities were scattered and intermingled with the English, so it took some time to eliminate him (130 BC-230 AD).

Thus far, I'd eliminated my neighbors to the north, south, and west. To the east was Gandhi and Bismarck. To the west were the English, and the remaining civilizations further west. It was clear that I would need to invade westward to achieve domination, but I didn't want Bismarck sitting on my rear flank. So, I eliminated him (320-410 AD) and Gandhi (455-650 AD). However, during the war on Gandhi, he and Victoria discovered Feudalism. Predictably (and suicidally) Victoria took Gandhi as a vassal, declaring war on me.

The rest of the game followed that pattern:
785 AD: Wang Kon declares war
965 AD: Victoria becomes vassal, Genghis declares war
980 AD: I bring Roosevelt and Asoka in against Genghis
1070 AD: Wang Kon becomes Catherine's vassal (Catherine declares war)
1130 AD: Wang Kon is destroyed
1160 AD: While invading Catherine and Genghis, I hit the domination limit.

Obviously, the focus of my building was military units. Because I am used to needing to maintain financial solvency, I razed a lot of earlier cities - in retrospect, this was pointless. Similarly, I ended up building a lot of courthouses, libraries, and marketplaces.

Reading through the thread, I decided to try Moonsinger's approach with the fractal map. This was surprisingly frustrating. The first attempt resulted in an island that was 8 squares short of 51%. A second attempt turned out slightly better. In an opportunistic gamble, I built the Oracle to discover Construction, and dominated the game with an army of Elephants and Catapults. I'd thought I was doing better, but the end result was an improvement of one turn (1154 AD).

I thought the Fractal map was more troublesome for domination - it didn't have enough interior landmass, and its harder to reach the domination limit with coastal cities. So, I returned to Pangaea. This time, I disabled tribal villages, vassals, and barbarians, and regenerated until I got an interior start.

In contrast to the first attempt, I started off by peacefully acquiring as much land as possible. Initially, I built no military units at all, focusing on settlers and workers (building barracks to grow). This approach would be impossible on a higher difficulty, but on prince, my power stayed close enough to avoid enemy aggression.

After establishing 6 cities (and acquiring 12.5% of the land), I switched over to military production (~600 BC).

Research: Animal Husbandry, Agriculture, Mining, Bronze Working, Masonry, Horseback Riding, Archery

Having a broad productive base sped up the rate of conquest substantially - it takes a while for captured cities to become productive. I chose my targets based on two factors - proximity, and the number of cities on hills.

Asoka: 220-160 BC
Victoria: 130-25 BC
Stalin: 20-125 AD
Qin Shi Huang: 185-365 AD (1 city left), 605-620 AD (destroyed)
Wang Kon: 215-305 AD (1 city left), 500 AD (destroyed)
Gandhi: 380-470 AD (1 city left), 620 AD (destroyed)
Cyrus: 515-590 AD

(I put off destroying Qin Shi Huang and Wang Kon because their last cities were inconveniently placed on the opposite side of Cyrus and Gandhi respectively. I made peace with Gandhi for two techs, and destroyed him exactly 10 turns later.)

Late research: Iron Working, Writing, Alphabet, Construction, Metal Casting, Machinery

After 620, I have enough territory for domination, once some of the revolts end. I had switched to caste system and facism earlier, so artists were available to expand my borders. In 665, I hit the domination limit exactly. In 680, 3 cities left revolt, expanding to radius 2 (thanks to the aforementioned artists), and I control 53.47% of the land, ever so slightly in excess of the required 51%.

Financially, the only thing supporting my empire was conquest - I was losing 160/turn at the end, and only switching all cities over to pure commerce prevents financial collapse (down to -40/turn) before domination.

Build orders for conquered cities were one of two options:
1. Barracks, then axemen (my defensive unit)
2. Barracks, stable, then keshiks

My conquests, limited technology trading, and the lack of native villages meant that I never faced any elephants, catapults, or longbowmen, and very few horse archers. The only real opposition for the Mongol Horde was cities on hills.

Upon victory, I discovered that there was a surprisingly large, unoccupied island in the middle of nowhere, which pushed up the domination limit (566). The prior games had the domination limit around 500, which is 3-4 cities less.

Undoubtedly, a better result would have been possible, but I'm not much of a micromanager. (Time played: 5:51)

Azylic
 
Being #3 for now (don't ask me how) I thought I'd make a writeup for other n00bs like me as well.

After trying to get a good map via mapfinder for over a week, and playing one or two maps a day (getting defeated all the time), I did choose a map that I rolled up manually, and which didn't look like much. Some flood fields, a bit food, and marble close enough that I could grab it with my second town. Turned out to be an almost pangea map (large lambda shaped main continent, two smaller "australias". Thus I had 12 of the 14 opponents "close by", which I usually dislike.

I went straight for alphabet, meanwhile producing additional scouts to check my surroundings. In my experience its fundamental (especially with such a "weak research leader" to get 3, if you stretch it even 4 cities that will serve as your powerhouses.

Well, there wasn't much power in my houses.

Turned out that the next horse was nicely placed to my north ... and that Catherine was quicker to get it. So I had to "stretch it", and build 4 cities.

2200BC Turfan is founded. 1 gold, some hills, and access to the ocean.
1930BC Old Sarai is founded. 3 gold on hills, some more hills, and luckily as it later showed: iron.
1870BC I got alphabet, and thus all fundamental techs.
1600BC New Sarai is founded, to grab copper (didn't know about the iron at that time).
1540BC Catherine founds Judaism. Well, that was to be a shrine for me.
760BC Oracle-CS slingshot
460BC Construction for the catas
400BC Going for MY horses. Catherine learned how CLOSE our relations can be. Swordsmen plus catas are still good enough for the task.
385BC GreatLib completed, finally research isn't taking eternities anymore
160BC Taoism, my second religion is founded.
130BC After 1400 years of war Moscow is finally conquered. Rest in pieces Cathy.
85BC The parthenon speeds up my GP production.
50AD-305AD The americans join the mighty mongol empire despite several heavy military mistakes by the mongolian leader Bastian-Bux
350AD-620AD Stalin takes the dive
530AD Liberalism -> Nationalism
665AD-830AD Bismarcks turn. Still going with medieval units
740AD Gunpowder
845AD-1106AD Victoria, most of the time medieval units, plus some musketmen.
1025AD military tradition -> cavalry

And so on. Till as late as 1200AD the mainstay of my army where "cheap units", only slowly replaced by cavalry and grenadiers (after 1265).

I took down Genghis (except 1 city on the end of the world -> genghis vasall) and Gandhi, and reached domination limit by getting one or two towns from Wang Kon.

The mot important question all of the time was: how to keep my finances clear.

Well, all except my 4-6 mightiest cities where producing wealth. While this isn't enough to get your researching flying, it allowed me to run it at 30% most of the time.

So this is definitely a way to go even for less skilled players:

alphabet (fundamental techs, incl. axe/swordsmen) -> cs-slingshot (bureaucracy) -> great lib (research) -> construction (catas) -> liberalism (nationalism) -> gunpowder (musket men) -> military tradition (cavalry) -> chemistry (grenadiers) -> rifling (riflemen) -> assembly line (infantry)

I didn't reach infantry though as I finished the domination when reaching for rifling. Civil techs where only researched where essential, like alphabet, civil service, literature and liberalism, or to reach the military techs. Everything else was traded.

And again: the center point is your financial managing. Producing wealth with conquered towns is surely one way. Courthouses (I build them to late) will allow for quicker research. Don't try to use all towns for unit production. You'll just get bankrupt.
 
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