Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Another interesting English PoD is if de Montfort dies early, preventing the summoning of the first Parliament.
Alternate History Thread III
- Thread starter Luckymoose
- Start date
carmen510
Deity
What kind of history novels? (Give me an example)
Harleqin
Hippo Power
Right, I more or less have the background ready for a nes set to start in 1826, one year after the death of Napoleon I of France.
I haven't created a massive timeline with lots of small details because that just makes it easier to make mistakes. I've taken advantage of creative freedom, butterfly effects, penguins, polar bears and hippopotami to come up with the idea below.
For map I'll take the one Panda used and change it to fit (saves me the trouble with adding cities
).
What I'd like from you is just some initial feedback and to gauge interest. Also, my knowledge of Asia is full of holes just as I'm not too knowlegdable on Africa. I'll be thinking about the European colonies there and what might have happened, but I'd like some input from you as to what you believe likely changes/results on those two continents might be.
The NES starts closely to the PoD so it shouldn't be too much. It is also set to start in a time where the world is extremely unstable. Just to make it more fun
PEACE TREATY OF 1816
Following the final French win in the Napoleonic wars in 1815, the small and great powers of Europe met in Frankfurt in the spring of 1816 to discuss the future of Europe.
Having obtained the surrender of his enemies (apart from heavy fighting in Spain), Napoleon invited the royalty of Europe to Frankfurt to discuss the future of Europe. Hoping to prevent the formation of a new coalition, Napoleon had decided to instead try and resolve the many differences between the countries diplomatically rather than force a treaty down on them.
Despite fears of Napoleon that it would be seen as French weakness, he longed for peace and entrusted Fouché with the critical negotiations. Napoleon himself was also in Frankfurt, but left Fouché to handle most of the negotiations whilst he, himself, spent time with the foreign royals rather than their diplomats. Even so all treaties had to be approved by Napoleon which was not always an easy task.
Some agreements were easy to make, others harder. For helping him and being loyal the kingdom of Denmark-Norway were rewarded with the return of their old, lost lands from Sweden. The Poles were rewarded with an expansion of the Duchy of Warsaw, though the nation remained landlocked.
France itself gained recognition of its gains in Catalonia and northern Italy though negotiations with the British over Gibraltar proved tough. In the end the British retained control of the strategic position, but had to pay a heavy price; namely the surrender of Malta to France as well as returning Quebec to French rule. The rest of the Canadian possessions were sold to the growing United States.
In partial compensation to the British the French had to agree to return independence to the Dutch as the British saw French presence there as a threat to them in the longer run. The Confederation of the Rhine remained alive however under French protection. Technically speaking it was not much of a confederation as the various states had a lot of freedom, but they were not able to truly exercise it as it was in actuality a French puppet.
In return for losses to Poland, Russia had their rule of Finland officially recognized.
The Austrian question was another hard one to answer, but eventually they regained their control over Dalmatia whilst the Tyrolian and Venetian question was solved by granting the areas independence and allowing them to be put under joint Frenco/Austrian protection as a guarentee to keep the area free from the dominance of either of the two nations.
Prussia was arguably the nation that was done by the most as they lost large parts of land and were only partially compensated by reciving Swedish Pommerania.
In Italy the rulership over Naples was recognized as belonging to Murat despite protests. Spain was another tricky issue. Joseph Bonaparte had proven extremely unpopular with the Spanish, but he was eventually accepted by the other Great Powers as they secretly hoped that continued conflict in Spain would drain the French. Whilst Spain is still a hotspot, it didnt bleed the French as much as was hoped. Thousands of French troops are in Spain, but whilst they have suffered losses, the constant fighting has also served as a superb training course for the troops.
The situation today, anno domini 1826
EUROPE
In French chaos reigns following the death of Napoleon a year ago. His son, Napoleon II, has been crowned as the new Emperor, but at just 15 years of age he is too young for the responsibility. His mother, Maria Louise of Austria, has been named regent, but despite her statecraft skills, it is proving hard for her. Many suitors are vying for her attention as she is the key to power in France and her son, headstrong like his father, is determined to prove that he is every bit as strong as his father, leading to many disagreements between them. The council is split between loyalty to France, to Marie Louise and those seeking to prove themselves to the young emperor. Unity must be found or everything that Napoleon I fought for might be lost.
In Spain Joseph Bonaparte is practically a prisoner in his palace in Valencia as he has little direct control over policies and need approval from Paris for every decision. Whilst he is nominally in charge of the Spanish troops, he has no influence over the French corps, leading to quite a bit of resentment on his part, despite being told that he is simply being kept out of harms way. Whilst this was hard enough to tolerate when his younger brother was in charge, it has become unbearable for him to have to seek the approval of a woman and a mere boy. The cities are largely under control, but rebel groups and brigands still makes life in the provinces dangerous.
The Spanish empire is still, nominally, a part of Spain, but the fighting in Spain has reduced the hold on the colonies immensely and several rebellions are raging, particularly in the new world. If Spain doesnt get its act together, those possessions could be lost for all time. Mexico has already been lost and more areas are likely to follow.
Portugal has been able to breathe a bit more easily in recent years as Spain has been in flames. Whilst there is little evidence toward it, it is suspected that many of the rebels in Spanish colonies are supported by Portugal who wishes to weaken the Spanish grib enough so that they themselves can take over their domain.
In Naples, Joachim Murat is now in his late 50es and has spent the last year pursuing a foreign policy independent of Paris. Having always resented being little more than a French puppet he has moved with surprising quickness to secure the throne of Naples, not only for himself, but only for his heir, Napoleon Achille Murat. It is not known exactly what is happening, but rumour says that he has met with Metternich. Having been a staunch, if forced, French ally for the last decade, Naples is now moving to gain true independence.
Austria themselves have focused mainly on rebuilding, but have also fought some minor skirmishes with the Ottoman Empire as they have changed their focus to the south and the Balkans aiming to expand southwards after their plans on northern Italy were thwarted.
Prussia, severely weakened, have focused mainly on modernizing the state. The army is small, but extremely well trained and ready for use. With the death of Napoleon Poland has lost its protector and the Prussians now eye an opportunity to regain the lands that were taken from them. Their eyes have also turned west where the Confederation of the Rhine has collapsed and now appears to be easy pickings.
The lands of the former Confederation of the Rhine has split back into many small nations, though some still stick together for mutual protection, knowing that Prussia, Austria and even Denmark-Norway would be eager to take advantage of the situation. Two blocks have appeared along with several small nations. One block is lead by Bavaria who were eager to regain their freedom and the other is led by Hannover. Bavaria is seeking to form a nation strong enough to resist both the Prussians and the Austrians, whereas the Hannovians are looking more toward England due to their strong connections. The other minor states are, currently, undecided.
For Great Britain the death of Napoleon is seen as a most fortunate thing as this will, in their opinion, go a long way towards restoring a balance of power in Europe, something which can only be good for them as itll allow them to focus more on their overseas colonies as well as lessening the threat toward them.
Russia has been very quiet on the European front since their defeat. Little has changed in the nation. Having given up on their western expansion, they have instead turned their eyes east and west. The island of Hokkatka (Hokkaido) has been claimed by them and in North America they have also expanded southwards making contact with the province of California.
Despite this they still keep an eye on Europe. Not only because of the location of St. Petersburg, but also due to fear of Swedish or Polish aggression.
NORTH AMERICA
The young United States are still growing and expanding. More and more settlers are moving into the territory bought from France in 1803 though it is still a dangerous place to live due to the numerous, and sometimes hostile, Indian tribes. As the French regained control of Quebec the US made a deal with Great Britain similar to the one made with France and bought the Canadian territories.
Conflicts are brewing though. The US government is extremely displeased with the Russian settlement in the Oregon territory which is claimed by the US. So far it hasnt come to blows though that is probably only due to the difficulty for the US to fight so far away from their settled areas.
Much closer to the core US area is Florida which they would like to seize. It is still a Spanish colony, but more or less independent at this time. With the province mainly peaceful, it has not been a priority for the Spanish to ship what limited forces they have there when they are more needed in other areas. Whatever happens, it is likely to become a hotspot soon, but it whether it will gain independece, become American or remain Spanish is unknown.
Texas is another area that the US would like to get their hands on, but it is firmly under the control of Mexico and the ruling junta have no intentions of relinquishing it to the Americans. The junta of Mexico consists of Spanish nobles who arrived after Napoleon took over Spain, military officers as well as nobles who have lived in Mexico for decades. At first the province was the new home for the Spanish royal family after Napoleon took over Spain itself. The son of Carlos IV was crowned as Fernando I of Mexico and, simultanously as Fernando VII of Spain.
His reign didnt last long though. Irked at the loss of Spain, out of touch with reality and generally incompetent he was soon deposed by the new and old nobles of Mexico in alliance with the officers of the Spanish army who had escaped the chaos in Europe. Without a direct heir and tired of their ruling house they decided to rule the nation together for the betterment of the people.
Ruled directly from the province, supported by trained Spanish troops and free of obligations to Madrid, the junta has secured a strong grip on Mexico and have actually gained some popularity as life has gotten, if not a lot, then a little better for many.
SOUTH AMERICA
Nominally the continent is still all Spanish with the notable exception of Brazil. Technically however, it is more or less independent. Whilst Spanish forces are still in control of many areas, rebellions and independence movements are active all over the continent. The most famous of these rebel leaders is Simon Bolivar who is fighting for a free South America and is causing the Spanish forces endless grief. Whilst most of the liberated areas have been reconquered, the situation is grim and unsure. The Spanish commanders never have enough troops to maintain control and reinforcements from Europe are scarce. Some commanders have already given up and rebelled with their forces, seeking to carve out empires of their own. The result is that whilst Spain control the coast and several more areas it is more or less a free for all. Colonial rebels against Spanish Rebels against Spanish troops.
As the three groups keep killing each other the population suffers and the area gets closer and closer to pure anarchy. The Portuguese are already suspected of taking advantage of the situation. Should other European powers decide to join in the results could be chaotic.
AFRICA
Only minor changes from OTL
ASIA
Only minor changes from OTL
I haven't created a massive timeline with lots of small details because that just makes it easier to make mistakes. I've taken advantage of creative freedom, butterfly effects, penguins, polar bears and hippopotami to come up with the idea below.
For map I'll take the one Panda used and change it to fit (saves me the trouble with adding cities
).What I'd like from you is just some initial feedback and to gauge interest. Also, my knowledge of Asia is full of holes just as I'm not too knowlegdable on Africa. I'll be thinking about the European colonies there and what might have happened, but I'd like some input from you as to what you believe likely changes/results on those two continents might be.
The NES starts closely to the PoD so it shouldn't be too much. It is also set to start in a time where the world is extremely unstable. Just to make it more fun
PEACE TREATY OF 1816
Following the final French win in the Napoleonic wars in 1815, the small and great powers of Europe met in Frankfurt in the spring of 1816 to discuss the future of Europe.
Having obtained the surrender of his enemies (apart from heavy fighting in Spain), Napoleon invited the royalty of Europe to Frankfurt to discuss the future of Europe. Hoping to prevent the formation of a new coalition, Napoleon had decided to instead try and resolve the many differences between the countries diplomatically rather than force a treaty down on them.
Despite fears of Napoleon that it would be seen as French weakness, he longed for peace and entrusted Fouché with the critical negotiations. Napoleon himself was also in Frankfurt, but left Fouché to handle most of the negotiations whilst he, himself, spent time with the foreign royals rather than their diplomats. Even so all treaties had to be approved by Napoleon which was not always an easy task.
Some agreements were easy to make, others harder. For helping him and being loyal the kingdom of Denmark-Norway were rewarded with the return of their old, lost lands from Sweden. The Poles were rewarded with an expansion of the Duchy of Warsaw, though the nation remained landlocked.
France itself gained recognition of its gains in Catalonia and northern Italy though negotiations with the British over Gibraltar proved tough. In the end the British retained control of the strategic position, but had to pay a heavy price; namely the surrender of Malta to France as well as returning Quebec to French rule. The rest of the Canadian possessions were sold to the growing United States.
In partial compensation to the British the French had to agree to return independence to the Dutch as the British saw French presence there as a threat to them in the longer run. The Confederation of the Rhine remained alive however under French protection. Technically speaking it was not much of a confederation as the various states had a lot of freedom, but they were not able to truly exercise it as it was in actuality a French puppet.
In return for losses to Poland, Russia had their rule of Finland officially recognized.
The Austrian question was another hard one to answer, but eventually they regained their control over Dalmatia whilst the Tyrolian and Venetian question was solved by granting the areas independence and allowing them to be put under joint Frenco/Austrian protection as a guarentee to keep the area free from the dominance of either of the two nations.
Prussia was arguably the nation that was done by the most as they lost large parts of land and were only partially compensated by reciving Swedish Pommerania.
In Italy the rulership over Naples was recognized as belonging to Murat despite protests. Spain was another tricky issue. Joseph Bonaparte had proven extremely unpopular with the Spanish, but he was eventually accepted by the other Great Powers as they secretly hoped that continued conflict in Spain would drain the French. Whilst Spain is still a hotspot, it didnt bleed the French as much as was hoped. Thousands of French troops are in Spain, but whilst they have suffered losses, the constant fighting has also served as a superb training course for the troops.
The situation today, anno domini 1826
EUROPE
In French chaos reigns following the death of Napoleon a year ago. His son, Napoleon II, has been crowned as the new Emperor, but at just 15 years of age he is too young for the responsibility. His mother, Maria Louise of Austria, has been named regent, but despite her statecraft skills, it is proving hard for her. Many suitors are vying for her attention as she is the key to power in France and her son, headstrong like his father, is determined to prove that he is every bit as strong as his father, leading to many disagreements between them. The council is split between loyalty to France, to Marie Louise and those seeking to prove themselves to the young emperor. Unity must be found or everything that Napoleon I fought for might be lost.
In Spain Joseph Bonaparte is practically a prisoner in his palace in Valencia as he has little direct control over policies and need approval from Paris for every decision. Whilst he is nominally in charge of the Spanish troops, he has no influence over the French corps, leading to quite a bit of resentment on his part, despite being told that he is simply being kept out of harms way. Whilst this was hard enough to tolerate when his younger brother was in charge, it has become unbearable for him to have to seek the approval of a woman and a mere boy. The cities are largely under control, but rebel groups and brigands still makes life in the provinces dangerous.
The Spanish empire is still, nominally, a part of Spain, but the fighting in Spain has reduced the hold on the colonies immensely and several rebellions are raging, particularly in the new world. If Spain doesnt get its act together, those possessions could be lost for all time. Mexico has already been lost and more areas are likely to follow.
Portugal has been able to breathe a bit more easily in recent years as Spain has been in flames. Whilst there is little evidence toward it, it is suspected that many of the rebels in Spanish colonies are supported by Portugal who wishes to weaken the Spanish grib enough so that they themselves can take over their domain.
In Naples, Joachim Murat is now in his late 50es and has spent the last year pursuing a foreign policy independent of Paris. Having always resented being little more than a French puppet he has moved with surprising quickness to secure the throne of Naples, not only for himself, but only for his heir, Napoleon Achille Murat. It is not known exactly what is happening, but rumour says that he has met with Metternich. Having been a staunch, if forced, French ally for the last decade, Naples is now moving to gain true independence.
Austria themselves have focused mainly on rebuilding, but have also fought some minor skirmishes with the Ottoman Empire as they have changed their focus to the south and the Balkans aiming to expand southwards after their plans on northern Italy were thwarted.
Prussia, severely weakened, have focused mainly on modernizing the state. The army is small, but extremely well trained and ready for use. With the death of Napoleon Poland has lost its protector and the Prussians now eye an opportunity to regain the lands that were taken from them. Their eyes have also turned west where the Confederation of the Rhine has collapsed and now appears to be easy pickings.
The lands of the former Confederation of the Rhine has split back into many small nations, though some still stick together for mutual protection, knowing that Prussia, Austria and even Denmark-Norway would be eager to take advantage of the situation. Two blocks have appeared along with several small nations. One block is lead by Bavaria who were eager to regain their freedom and the other is led by Hannover. Bavaria is seeking to form a nation strong enough to resist both the Prussians and the Austrians, whereas the Hannovians are looking more toward England due to their strong connections. The other minor states are, currently, undecided.
For Great Britain the death of Napoleon is seen as a most fortunate thing as this will, in their opinion, go a long way towards restoring a balance of power in Europe, something which can only be good for them as itll allow them to focus more on their overseas colonies as well as lessening the threat toward them.
Russia has been very quiet on the European front since their defeat. Little has changed in the nation. Having given up on their western expansion, they have instead turned their eyes east and west. The island of Hokkatka (Hokkaido) has been claimed by them and in North America they have also expanded southwards making contact with the province of California.
Despite this they still keep an eye on Europe. Not only because of the location of St. Petersburg, but also due to fear of Swedish or Polish aggression.
NORTH AMERICA
The young United States are still growing and expanding. More and more settlers are moving into the territory bought from France in 1803 though it is still a dangerous place to live due to the numerous, and sometimes hostile, Indian tribes. As the French regained control of Quebec the US made a deal with Great Britain similar to the one made with France and bought the Canadian territories.
Conflicts are brewing though. The US government is extremely displeased with the Russian settlement in the Oregon territory which is claimed by the US. So far it hasnt come to blows though that is probably only due to the difficulty for the US to fight so far away from their settled areas.
Much closer to the core US area is Florida which they would like to seize. It is still a Spanish colony, but more or less independent at this time. With the province mainly peaceful, it has not been a priority for the Spanish to ship what limited forces they have there when they are more needed in other areas. Whatever happens, it is likely to become a hotspot soon, but it whether it will gain independece, become American or remain Spanish is unknown.
Texas is another area that the US would like to get their hands on, but it is firmly under the control of Mexico and the ruling junta have no intentions of relinquishing it to the Americans. The junta of Mexico consists of Spanish nobles who arrived after Napoleon took over Spain, military officers as well as nobles who have lived in Mexico for decades. At first the province was the new home for the Spanish royal family after Napoleon took over Spain itself. The son of Carlos IV was crowned as Fernando I of Mexico and, simultanously as Fernando VII of Spain.
His reign didnt last long though. Irked at the loss of Spain, out of touch with reality and generally incompetent he was soon deposed by the new and old nobles of Mexico in alliance with the officers of the Spanish army who had escaped the chaos in Europe. Without a direct heir and tired of their ruling house they decided to rule the nation together for the betterment of the people.
Ruled directly from the province, supported by trained Spanish troops and free of obligations to Madrid, the junta has secured a strong grip on Mexico and have actually gained some popularity as life has gotten, if not a lot, then a little better for many.
SOUTH AMERICA
Nominally the continent is still all Spanish with the notable exception of Brazil. Technically however, it is more or less independent. Whilst Spanish forces are still in control of many areas, rebellions and independence movements are active all over the continent. The most famous of these rebel leaders is Simon Bolivar who is fighting for a free South America and is causing the Spanish forces endless grief. Whilst most of the liberated areas have been reconquered, the situation is grim and unsure. The Spanish commanders never have enough troops to maintain control and reinforcements from Europe are scarce. Some commanders have already given up and rebelled with their forces, seeking to carve out empires of their own. The result is that whilst Spain control the coast and several more areas it is more or less a free for all. Colonial rebels against Spanish Rebels against Spanish troops.
As the three groups keep killing each other the population suffers and the area gets closer and closer to pure anarchy. The Portuguese are already suspected of taking advantage of the situation. Should other European powers decide to join in the results could be chaotic.
AFRICA
Only minor changes from OTL
ASIA
Only minor changes from OTL
Swissempire
Poet Jester
Does anyone have a World Map of 1848 or 1850, somewhere around there?
Also, IYHO, what would it take for an Ottoman Revitalization in or around 1848-1850?
Also, IYHO, what would it take for an Ottoman Revitalization in or around 1848-1850?
Disenfrancised
Beep Beep
Interesting, some points
The British Canadians, with their emergent nationality after thee war of 1812 would never willing submit to a sale of their lands to the United states, and would likly be up in arms and actively resist. Ditto the british public allowing the sale of Upper Canada.
@Swiss; a loss of the outer parts of the empire and a new sense of turkish unity perhaps?
The British Canadians, with their emergent nationality after thee war of 1812 would never willing submit to a sale of their lands to the United states, and would likly be up in arms and actively resist. Ditto the british public allowing the sale of Upper Canada.
@Swiss; a loss of the outer parts of the empire and a new sense of turkish unity perhaps?
silver 2039
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Messages
- 16,208
French victory in Napoleinic Wars would result in British defeat in India at the hands of Mysore. I imagine the situation in India would be quite similar to Luck NES with the Kinngdom of Mysore defeating the British with French aid.
Sucessful implementation and completion of Tanzimat refroms with French and British assistance.
das
Regeneration In Process
I doubt that enough time had passed; some would resist, but it won't be enough.
Mysore. Really. Look, Britain didn't even lose Gibraltar; it only lost Canada, and it was never particularily keen on keeping that after losing America. I suppose that the French might try and rile up something, but it won't be enough. Either way, Mysore after 1799 is irrelevant, and even prior to that it was weakened too much. It was mostly crippled by the Second Anglo-Mysorean War, IMHO.
Earlier (at the beginning of the Tanzimat) or later (in the Young Ottoman - don't confuse with Young Turk - period, not necessarily associated with the organisation itself) is more likely.
Harleqin
Hippo Power
carmen510
Deity
Very interesting piece. Much easier for me to understand! 
(What, the early 1700s and mid to late 1800s is one of my worst areas.)
(What, the early 1700s and mid to late 1800s is one of my worst areas.)
Symphony D.
Deity
Insert noise somewhere between that of Velociraptor and Xenomorph here.
Harleqin
Hippo Power
Quebec is a French colony, though depending on events in Europe I'd say it has a decent chance of independence.
I'll will work on the map today (touch wood) and then start on stats. Best case scenario is that I'll be able to launch in a week or so.
I'll will work on the map today (touch wood) and then start on stats. Best case scenario is that I'll be able to launch in a week or so.
das
Regeneration In Process
I think he was talking about the Anglo-Canadians in American-bought territory.
Technically it won't be difficult at all, they already did it before the Seven Years War. But now American and possibly Russian competition would make it unprofitable in the long run, and without Quebec the integrity of the colonies will be severely impaired, so they will probably fall into American hands anyway. Hudson's Bay Company is going to be trully outraged, though.
das
Regeneration In Process
WHAT NWC? It will lose everything as well!
silver 2039
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Messages
- 16,208
Perhaps but the British will be weakened after their defeat, and furthermore the French will have a far easier time sending aid to Mysore since they are no longer at war with the British. Also Mysore was only crippled after the Third Anglo Mysore War it won the Second. Furthermore had the battle of Srirangapatana been won in the Fourth Anglo Mysore war the British would have lost a great deal of influence and power in South India and would never play anything more than a periphary role as their Hyderabdai, and Maratha allies would have lost faith in them. A Mysore-Hyderbad alliance is not out of the question as Mysore was orignally allied with Hyderbabd against the British in the First Anglo-Mysore War.
das
Regeneration In Process
In what way? Their influence in Europe will be weakened, yes; their presence in the Mediterranean, yes; maybe even their economy and naval power, yes! But incidentally after being thrown out of the Central Mediterranean and North America they will free up lots of assets that would otherwise have been used there to hold, expand and develop their South American, African and Indian holdings and interests.
But would they want to? Because sending aid in any significant amount will not only result in British attention, but might - if it actually is enough to have a visible effect - prompt a declaration of war. I rather doubt that the French want that.
Irrelevant. After 1799, it was a British "princely state". And the Second War was a draw, although admittedly it could be considered a Mysorean victory when compared with how other colonial wars usually go.
Not really. Tibbu Tip was holed up in his capital; the British would've brought in more troops, restored the situation and crushed him for good, it would only have taken more time.
Some allies.
And Hyderabad was the first to voluntarily support the British, if I recall; back in 1798. Unless the British were to suffer some serious catastrophe I can't really see that changing.
Tippu's father had far better chances, IMHO, both due to being more competent overall and due to the British not being as entrenched back then; regardless, after 1799 a serious Mysorean revival was probably out of question. Probably the same for the Mughals. Rajputs and Marathas are too busy fighting each other. The only serious organised force is the Sikhs, but they are busy fighting Hindus and Muslims, and were more-or-less on friendly terms with the British.
alex994
Hail Divine Emperor!
Sometimes I'm grateful China was never conquered in name by the Europeans and yet sometimes I regret that didn't happen... Victoria, Empress of China! 
