G-Major 9: February Vanilla/Warlords Combo

@uwsublime: I agree our conversation should have moved off of the Minor gauntlet thread. If anyone wants to catch up, go there. We were discussing OCC for this Diety gauntlet...

I always build the Globe Theater. It's solves the emacipation problem AND even better, you can now trade away all your happiness resources for health or money.

(Going on vacation for a few days...not sure I'll have internet access)

WT: I have tried a couple more deity OCCs since that last post in the other thread. I have since managed a 1520AD win, which could have probably been more like 1450 with a couple very minor changes. Yes, I noticed that very pleasant side effect of the globe a few turns after I built it when I was looking at my resource advisor... That is a *great* bonus allowing you to add health. I haven't been able to get a city over size 12 in the OCC setup on deity yet, and it would have been more like size 9 or 10 w/o that bonus. The biggest downfall of OCC is lack of resources.

So, in the game I won, I didn't even attempt oracle... I wanted to get liberalism, but chose not to lightbulb education due to nobody else having paper yet... Next thing I know, I look up and someone has education... They must have saved their own GS. Ended up missing liberalism by about 10 turns. So, then I'm cruising along... I'm the only one with astronomy and I have a GS in the bank with another one on the way in a few turns... I research Sci Method and trade astronomy away for Printing Press planning to bulb half of Physics with my 2 GScis and get the bonus GSci from that... Anyway, I goofed again, I traded away for chemistry in the meantime which pushed my bulbs into biology... I'll remember not to do that next time.

Now that I've got a little experience in this setup, I think I can go sub 1400AD. I have no idea how you are getting games in the low 1100s on OCC... Are you somehow managing both Oracle and Liberalism? How many GScis are you generating during a game? I was pushing over 400 beakers with a mostly cottage economy so only ran 1-2 scientists the majority of the game... Also had no pyramids so representation didn't come until late. I think I popped only 3 GScis and an artist. Maybe its the game speed that is pushing the time back? What is your best time so far that qualifies for this gauntlet? I notice your best on the HoF is 1112 AD for epic speed, but that's on a Duel map... Seems to me Duel would be slower due to less trading, but faster due to easier Oracle/Lib and faster tech rate on smaller maps...

1376AD, very far from current tables. Musa, I didn't try to get Oracle or Liberalism first. 2GP, early GS for Academy, GE for UN, almost 100% probability but Oxford affected a bit. Bad trading from the start (the Oracle builder chose Alphabet) and only 3 resources made for a bad game. Shouldn't have moved my settler away from the river on the first turn. Also a lot of little mistakes, like nor hiring 2 sci asap. I was able to catch up and not be left behind, but I wasn't able to trade for Print so I had to research it myself before SciMe. That hurt!
Beeline to Alphabet, then to CS, then to Astronomy. Lost the race to Physics and got 3rd to MM, but the GE was there to help. I forgot to rushbuy that same turn, wich meant UN 1 turn late, which meant victory 4 turns late. The voting was very easy, everybody run US, my opponent was Hatty, the only one who didn't have US as a favourite and didn't run it. Everybody voted for me.

The true reason to write this post is to share a little trick I hadn't used before. Money is falling from the sky, you don't know what to do with it if you play OCC. Ok, lower your research rate for second, trade 12gpt for that sorely needed health resource and go back to 100%. Stone for Oxford is worth 15gpt.

WastinTime said:

The liberalism race is a tough one. You really have to hold back trading CS and paper. Certainly don't trade Education until you are a few turns away from completing Liberalism.

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Hi. I can't seem to be able to win the Liberalism race, not in this gauntlet, not in cultural Deity games either, even when using a GS for Philo and other for Educ.

When 2 AI have gotten CS (or Paper) I know they are going to trade among them, so I trade it to all other AIs that very same turn. Shouldn't I be doing that?

I lost Lib by 6 turns in my last goaround... Then I lost physics by 10 turns. Getting very frustrating. I think I'm skipping Lib next try.

OK, so I finally got a win. Played with Liz against the usual suspects of Asoka, Ghandi, Fred, Washington, Roosevelt and Mansa Musa. I used pangaea with high sea level and tropical climate so that the jungles would slow down the AI. Not sure if this is a good map setup or not but it seemed to work ok...

Finished in 1556 which ain't gonna trouble the top of the table I don't think. Its my first Deity win though so I'm pretty happy!

I didn't win the race to liberalism, nor physics but I did get to MM second by just a turn or two and then had the cash and the GE waiting to finish the UN. Still, I didn't win the first vote and had to wait until the 'you've wisely chosen your civics' bonus grew.

I might give it another go to improve my time. I'd like to try it with a different map and opponents other than Asoka and Ghandi who always seem to be the ones who I am racing with for liberalism, physics and MM. I noticed Jesusin used Hatty, any other suggestions anyone?

One last thing, I am trying this using warlords (I can't find my ordinary CIV4 CD!). Is anyone else trying this using warlords or is everyone else doing this in Vanilla?

uwsublime said:

I haven't been able to get a city over size 12 in the OCC setup on deity yet, and it would have been more like size 9 or 10 w/o that bonus. The biggest downfall of OCC is lack of resources.

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Have you considered Victoria? Expansive isn't usually so great, but on OCC...

uwsublime said:

Are you somehow managing both Oracle and Liberalism? How many GScis are you generating during a game? I was pushing over 400 beakers with a mostly cottage economy so only ran 1-2 scientists the majority of the game... Also had no pyramids so representation didn't come until late. I think I popped only 3 GScis and an artist. Maybe its the game speed that is pushing the time back? What is your best time so far that qualifies for this gauntlet? I notice your best on the HoF is 1112 AD for epic speed, but that's on a Duel map... Seems to me Duel would be slower due to less trading, but faster due to easier Oracle/Lib and faster tech rate on smaller maps...

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I don't build the oracle or pyramids. You can do the oracle with a financial leader and get CS. However some of the time you miss it and then if you do get it you have the problem of getting a GP instead of GE. It also delays your Academy, so I quit trying for it.

I've played mostly Vicky, Mansa, not really much focus on Philo. I'm not sure I pop more than 1 GS after the academy and the GE. I was thinking of going to Philo this gauntlet since I think Mansa is no good on Epic speed.

I've got that 1304 AD high score on Epic with Victoria and that was Huge size, so I have to believe that sub-1200 will happen. Huge has much slower tech and no advantages except maybe no one crowds your space.

Duel size is a completely different monster. You can only have 2 opponents so there's no way to win the vote without conquest (using OCC)

jesusin said:

Hi. I can't seem to be able to win the Liberalism race, not in this gauntlet, not in cultural Deity games either, even when using a GS for Philo and other for Educ.

When 2 AI have gotten CS (or Paper) I know they are going to trade among them, so I trade it to all other AIs that very same turn. Shouldn't I be doing that?

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I also trade those after a couple others get it. You need to get some value out of those techs at some point. I don't have a whole lot of trouble getting liberalism without even using GS lightbulbing. I find that with no Pyramids and with Bureaucracy, you need to focus on cottages and growing, not running science specialists. Or, maybe your map setup allows the AI to tech faster?

Planitia said:

Finished in 1556 which ain't gonna trouble the top of the table I don't think. Its my first Deity win though so I'm pretty happy!

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grats!!!

i tried it a little bit last night. but when Mansa called up for a diplomatic chat and said "here we think you might find this useful" and gave me bronzeworking for free i thought "oooooookay i'm behind" and that diety does indeed remain beyond my grasp for now. was awfully nice of him tho, bless his heart.

Being behind is the way things are in Deity. Key is to know where you want to be. A beeline means you pass up on most of the regular techs, which creates a chance you'll be one of the first at MM. Building the UN the turn you research it means you'll beat the AI to it. If you succeeded in keeping them happy and they are still busy with the expensive spaceship parts mean you have a chance of winning. In a Deity level game you only can get really in front is by continuous warring.

Mind you, this is III only knowledge for me at this time. I've only beaten Deity in IV in quecha runs ATM.

KMadCandy said:

grats!!!

i tried it a little bit last night. but when Mansa called up for a diplomatic chat and said "here we think you might find this useful" and gave me bronzeworking for free i thought "oooooookay i'm behind" and that diety does indeed remain beyond my grasp for now. was awfully nice of him tho, bless his heart.

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haha, I just tried too and I got given about 5 techs by different leaders. I knew it was over when, while researching physics on my way to MM I was given it by another civ.

Drool said:

haha, I just tried too and I got given about 5 techs by different leaders. I knew it was over when, while researching physics on my way to MM I was given it by another civ.

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hahahaha! i knew that they'd give me techs if they considered me pathetic enough ... errrr i mean if they were feeling generous and i was way far behind. but i am definitely not used to being THAT behind THAT early and was completely in over my (crazy) head.

and the trading, OMG! they'll like only trade you something worth like 1/3rd of what you're trading them. i'm used to doing a lot trading to backfill techs i skipped. the minor made me re-think how to play without that strategy, since they were too slow (even with me donating the prereqs to them). this one is 180 degrees from that!

deadline's a long time away, i'll probably try it again before then, especially if i can learn more from the thread here.

Ok so I got another win! This time it was 1352AD (much more respectable) but I only just squeezed it by 1 vote. So, Drool, KMadCandy and all you others fighting to beat Diety for the first time, don't give up! If I can do it you can do it!

I used the inland sea map this time and booted out Asoka and Ghandi and got in Wang Kon and Churchill. I think this was probably only half and half a good idea. Wang was sound, but Churchill was pretty recalcitrant when it came to voting - he kept abstaining and his favourite civic was impossible to get him to change to to pick up extra points that way! Maybe Hatty would be better?

I followed the cottage plan this time rather than specialists but I still used Liz as I wanted to get the first GS and GE really quickly. I got the GS asap after the library for the academy then held off running anything until i had the forge for the GE. After that i think i only got 1 GS and I GA that I used to finish off MM. By the end my city was churning out >700 science per turn though!

I missed Liberalism and Physics but because there was no Asoka/Ghandi, the Ai didnt seem that interested in radio or MM...

One tip that might help win the vote. You can build up 'appreciate years you supplied us with resources' points by trading away happy and health resources even when you need them, as long as you get the same type of resource back. For example trade away your only gold but get back a gem. You don't get a net bonus (except when you manage to exchange something like a sheep for a corn when you have a granary) but if you can keep this up over the whole game it could give you +2 for each leader you trade with. Sorry if that seems obvious, it didn't to me!

Another tip is to not shut off the research after you build the UN. Go for another tech - i did medicine next - if you feel the vote might not go your way. That way you can use the tech as bribes or even to allow the 2nd place person to grow quicker and become number 1 if that will help. That's what happened in my game ad it was the key to getting the win!

Hope this helps and good luck!

Planitia said:

One tip that might help win the vote. You can build up 'appreciate years you supplied us with resources' points by trading away happy and health resources even when you need them, as long as you get the same type of resource back. For example trade away your only gold but get back a gem. You don't get a net bonus (except when you manage to exchange something like a sheep for a corn when you have a granary) but if you can keep this up over the whole game it could give you +2 for each leader you trade with. Sorry if that seems obvious, it didn't to me!

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it seems obvious now that you typed it, but it had never crossed my mind. thank you!

ps i can't believe you killed the indians! i have visions in my head of us all getting along all game, like in the minor. if i have to like, actually help eliminate a civ, on diety? man oh man.

Great tips Planitia! Congrats on your win.

WastinTime said:

I also trade those after a couple others get it. You need to get some value out of those techs at some point. I don't have a whole lot of trouble getting liberalism without even using GS lightbulbing. I find that with no Pyramids and with Bureaucracy, you need to focus on cottages and growing, not running science specialists. Or, maybe your map setup allows the AI to tech faster?

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Thank you.

You are right, as usual. I think that you can only research as fast as the fastest AI. So I believe that the fastest finish will be the one that helps 'poor Deity AI' the most. So I chose low waters and the best researchers as opponents (except Musa, I can't control tech trades when he is in the game).

Since getting Astronomy for free after researching Liberalism is only 40% cheaper than directly researching Astronomy, I am inclined to think that we shouldn't even try to get Liberalism first... I don't know...

Ouch... Just tried again... 1252AD - Ghandi has built the United Nations... They smoked me.

Just noticed that Wasting is using just minimum numbers of opponents on each map. I thought using more makes them grow slower and helps you but seems im wrong. Does using more AIs make them get stuff you want to hold, like paper and edu until lib, faster? At least its easy to pick 9 AIs for standard. Or helps to get oracle, at least in my games i couldnt even dream of getting oracle pre COL to get slingshot.

BTW got again brilliant start, gems, gold & 5 floods, +1 one food outside fat but gettable. I had 6 citizens in no time working (premonarch of course), shields & beakers were coming outta like hell and all seemed well then Roos came on me. Dang!

-Dracandross

KMadCandy said:

it seems obvious now that you typed it, but it had never crossed my mind. thank you!

ps i can't believe you killed the indians! i have visions in my head of us all getting along all game, like in the minor. if i have to like, actually help eliminate a civ, on diety? man oh man.

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If you read what he wrote again, I'm pretty sure he didn't kill the indians, he just replaced them with other Civs (Wang and Churchill)

Drool said:

If you read what he wrote again, I'm pretty sure he didn't kill the indians, he just replaced them with other Civs (Wang and Churchill)

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ooooooooooooh! i misread "got in Wang Kon and Churchill" as got in with them, got on their good side by slaughtering poor asoka and gandhi. but i'm sure you're right now that i give it a second look. thanks!