Imperial Japan Challenge

I also have some other questions...

A. is it really worth to colonize Siberia?
I see it as a huge effort with limited gain... I would rather prefer to keep some "advanced blocks" there to limit russian expansions, but nothing more.

B. colonization of America?
This is what I would like to do... there are some nice places on the "west coast" that can bring lot of value with minimal military support.
It also open the way to conquer the Aztechs as soon as they spawn.
I think it as cheaper that expanding in Siberia, and keep Japan at the centre of the empire.

C. colonization of south-east Africa?
Some good sites, easy to defend, and can be used (in future) as a second front for Europe/middle-east.

Playing "domination game" in Ryhe is different than in non-mod CIV-IV warlord.
It forces you to plan well ahead thinking about new civs, plague, stability, etc.

It will be interesting to try with other Civs as well...
- China & Mongolia
they share similar tactics as Japan, I see a clear possibility to win with them.

but I see much harder with any other civ.
For example Rome could be a good candidate, but then you have to deal with France, England, Germany that will spawn in the very middle of your " natural" empire.
the main challenge is properly to manage (destroy) those newly born civs and then expand east.

A. is it really worth to colonize Siberia?
I see it as a huge effort with limited gain... I would rather prefer to keep some "advanced blocks" there to limit russian expansions, but nothing more.

Click to expand...

Once you get going, yes. 20+ Workers with a 50% speed bonus will terraform a wasteland into a metropolis of cottages and windmills in a matter of 10 turns.

I was up until 3am last night trying to power through the last 90 turns. I've got 40 left to play and it will likely take me 2-3 hours to finish them. I'll give my revised strategy after someone wins.

The last 90 turns of this game took longer than the first 200+. Although, that wasn't entirely the fault for my delay in posting this. I racked my brain, trying to figure a way that I could claim 20% of the world in 90 turns. Normally, as a player this isn't an issue since you're on par or ahead of the AIs in techs. Since we didn't have the advantage of a superior army, I figured we could win by numbers. But that would be costly, and would not win us the 20% of land we wanted. Heck, it would barely yield us any land since we'd only be able to take down one European civ with the army. Then, it hit me. I'd use a function of this game that I'd never used before.




MWUAHAHAHAHAHA!






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All things must come to an end, and I wasn't about to let Mother Earth stop me in conquering the world. I immediately set my research path to Fission and gleefully awaited the Manhattan project.

Meanwhile, There was still some land that was fairly backwards and un-vassalized. I loaded up my German army and sailed to Mexico. The going was rough, since the distance and the terrain made Aztecs a bear even with Riflemen and Machine Guns. In the end, the fancy headdress was no match for the Army of the Rising Sun. Aztec fell and I immediately declared war on Inca. Inca likewise fell in short order, and we picked up her Australian and SE Asia cities in addition to the western South American cities.

With Inca wrapped up, we tried to pounce on America before it could fill up with Tanks. Both of America's oil resources were close to our borders, so we tried to raize them. Well that turned into a bad idea when 13 Marines+Artillery showed up at my borders. We swapped Tateloco several times before I finally paid through the nose (7k gold) to come to a peaceful resolution. We then decided that we'll be nuking Europe, specifically Germany, our old rival and her vassal Egypt.



With only 21 tuns left, I figured the nuclear holocaust was not going to work out (especially since Germany had completed her SDI project). Still, I had decided to take this path and wanted to follow it through. Plus it was too late to change strategies. I decided to wait until the 4th turn to go. That was enough time to run Modern Armor to Roma. The plus side was that I had 3 cities building ICBMS in only 6 turns, and 5 others with 9 or less. So when 4 turns to go rolled around, it was time for Armageddon.










I missed 2 cities, but I think you get the picture. I nuked 5 of Germany's 8 cities and the only reason I didn't nuke the other 3 was because of close borders. Apparently there's some rule that prevents you from dropping a nuke if the fallout will affect a civ you're not at war with. To hell with that rule I say. We are Japan, masters of the earth!

The turn after Germany was decimated, Egypt hopped ship for America. Which suited me just fine since I had another 10 ICBMs lying around. And this is where America thoroughly pissed me off. In Germany, I had 5 of 8 hit. In America, only 3 of 12 hit. Still, 3 nukes is enough to cripple any nation.








Continued in next post.

I ate up Germany territory as fast as my Modern Armor could go. Without time to pop borders or bring the cities out of unrest, right now we were just playing through what will likely be the endgame of our next attempt. And, a few turns later, We won!



But at the same time, we failed. Oh bother. At least we did a fantastic showing.



Not too shabby. With some more focus throughout the game and some smarter civics, techs and expansion strategies, we can improve this to a Domination win. Now, to brag a bit on the game.

Score


Power


Demographics


Info


Cultural Boundaries









May the glorious Shogunate of Tokugawa reign eternal! This game definitely had alot of firsts for me. It's the first time I didn't go after wonders. This is the most cities I've built and raized in any game. And I also launched my first Nuke. All in all, I was feeling rather cool that I had done so much on Emperor . Then the score history screen came up.





****!

So now that I've played through a Monarch game. I'd like to share my (lengthy) thoughts on achieving this.


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Civics


The worst thing I could have possibly done is switch to Free Speech. At the time, I thought it was fantastic. An extra 2 gold per town (I had 32 of them at the time) and +100% culture to get my borders in Siberia top pop quick. But no, that doesn't help out a military civ. You should stick to Bureaucracy (once you get it) and then Nationhood once you've run through most of Asia.


The next mistake I made was when to flip to Caste System. Yes, you will need to run Caste System, and will for a large portion of the game. However, India has next to no production. It has plenty of opportunity for growth and cottage span, but it can't build at a decent rate even with Ironworks in Delhi. You have to have Slavery until India is built up with Banks, Markets, Libraries, Grocers, well, pretty much everything Mercantilism and earlier.

Here's the quick rundown on what you should do:

Government: Switch to HR the first turn, then Representation for the rest of the game.

Legal: This one is entirely subjective. At some point (usually when I switch from Slavery to Caste System) the benefits of Nationhood exceed those of Bureaucracy. This is usually the case at the discovery of Rifling when conscripts become much more valuable. Switch at your discretion, but never go back once you switch.

Labor: Slavery until India is whipped into shape, then Caste System the rest of the way.

Economy: Mercantilism until State Property.

Religion: None until Free Religion. Your two obvious choices for state religion, Confucianism and Taoism, don't exist outside of your borders. Even if you go with Hinduism or Buddhism, it's unlikely you'll pick up more than 2 other civs with the same religion. Why does this matter? Well, the only way to keep up with the Euros in techs is to trade with them. If we have a state religion besides their own, the negative relation modifier from having different religions will block any tech trading.

Expansion: Conquest, duh.

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Tech Path


Normally, your only reason not to expand is to prevent your economy from crashing. Well, Rhye changed that by putting in some massive tech penalties in for giga-empires. Near the end of the game, every city was adding 700+ beakers to the cost of discovering a tech. In order to stay competitive in research, you must cottage spam and expand in specific waves. But more on that later.

Whitefire's Recommended Tech Path

Sailing
Alphabet
Hunting
Mathematics
Calendar
Code of Laws
Civil Service
Iron Working
Machinery
Currency
Feudalism
Guilds
Banking
Gunpowder
Philosophy
Paper
Education
Liberalism
Nationhood (Free Tech unless Economics still gives the free GM or we traded for Engineering and can pick up Chemistry)
Representation
Democracy
Engineering
Chemistry
Scientific Theory
Communism

And you know what's odd? There are barely any military techs. I know it makes sense to go down the Rifling route, however, thats the same route the AI goes for. Why research the same techs as the AI when you're unlikely to be attacking them for some time?Many of the techs listed above can be traded for. In my game I got Hunting, Iron Working, Currency, Guilds, Feudalism and Machinery in trade. The last 4 were all from trading Civil Service. Beyond the road to Liberalism, there are two choices you have to make. Do you want Representation or Communism first?

In the end, both give roughly the same effect (200+ gold less in maintenance = 200+ beakers). Whichever path you decide to take, the AI probably won't. They're busy beelining to Assembly line, so you can, in theory, trade for those techs. I would recommend you go after Democracy first unless you have a Great Engineer lying around. The SoL is one of three wonders I count as vital to our empire. Losing it would be a major blow.

The rest of the tech path will depend on what you can wrest from the AIs. Sadly, the AI knows the cost of a tech for you, and will make you pay through the nose for anything. I traded Liberalism, Chemistry and Democracy for Rifling in my last game. It hurt, but I was in desperate need of anti-Cavalry units.

If you're expanding fast enough to win the Domination victory, don't expect a tech after 1800AD. I took the Aztecs down to one city and they would rather die than let me know how to make Railroads. Anyway, with that in mind, the next tech section is assuming you traded to Rifling, at least.

Economics
Corporation
Steam Power
Assembly Line
Fascism

Why the beeline to Fascism? Well, the AI generally avoids this one, and assuming we've stayed on track, we should be able to pick up the GG. Plus, Mount Rushmore is the third wonder which I count as vital. Since we're not running Police State, having this around will keep us from having to throw commerce into the cultural slider. Plus, I sold this tech to every civ and ended up with roughly 5k. That let me run at 100% research for quite some time.

The rest is up to you. However, I recommend grabbing Fission fairly soon. The AI definitely has Industrialism and is pressing towards Robotics. Once it nabs those Mech. Inf., any chance of taking cities without nukes is lost. However, the other techs are not to be forgotten.

I personally would do Industrialism next. That gives us Factories and our UB. A major turning point in my economy was when I had cities building wealth after constructing Factory+UB. I actually caught up in techs with all but 3 civs. Flight also has it uses. Airports were key in sending units I had produced in Russia and Siberia to Mexico and Peru. Without airports, my first war with America would have ended in a complete loss of the territory instead of a stalemate. Composites is also useful, since you can field Modern Armor. Those units actualy have a chance to down a Mech. Inf.

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Another path to consider is beelining to Internet. Normally I would take this path, but with the steep penalties on research, building it with a decent amount of time left may be impossible.

Very good!

Loved your game!

I will try a domination ( not with japan though ), and i use the nuke strategy sometimes! ( we are bad people >:] ).

The worst thing is that you won by time... >_< i think that the modern Era is too short, we don't have time to use its units right.

Well, nevertheless, it was a very good game, what abou a "one more turn" to just see what you needed to do to make a domination victory?

Question: How many Great Generals did you got? and what you did to them?

Those Wonderful Wonders

It's easy to get hooked on wonders in regular Vanilla and Warlords games. Unfortunately, in RFC you have to give up the ghost for several wonders unless you really work at them. I'm sure we could nab every wonder with such powerhouses as Beijing and Chonqing, but that would also cost us many units that could be put toward expanding. For that reason, I've written off all of the wonders except three: The Hagia Sophia, The Statue of Liberty and Mount Rushmore.

The HS is crucial in developing your empire. Since we're avoiding serfdom in favor of Slavery, we would normally need a worker corp of 40+ units to develop the vast area of land we're conquering effectively. The HS will save you time and, more importantly, get those cottages up and running ASAP.

Since we're running a kind-of-SE, the SoL is a natural choice. And since we're focusing primarily on Asia, Africa and Europe, any city on the mainland of those continents will receive the bonus. Spiffy.

Mount Rushmore is to keep War Weariness in check. And trust me, this will be a problem. If you're not at war taking land from someone, then you're not playing the game right. War Weariness becomes a huge factor when late-game you're going to war with multiple parties. Even with jails, -50&#37; of 15 is overwhelming unhappiness.

A Synopsis

Stonehenge: Useless. Raize it
Pyramids: Useless. Raize it.
Great Lighthouse: Marginal. Don't keep the city if it's in a poor spot.
Colossus: Marginal. Don't keep the city if it's in a poor spot.
Oracle: Useless. Raize it.
Great Wall: Useless. Raize it.
Leaning Tower: Useless. Raize it.
Temple of Artemis: Useless. Raize it.
Parthenon: Marginal. Don't keep the city if it's in a poor spot.
.
.
.
Are you seeing a pattern? Most of the wonder's effects will be obsolete and/or marginal by the time you take them from Europe. I figure it would be easier to list the ones that you should bother keeping.


The Sistine Chapel: Moderate utility. It definitely helps pop borders to claim land in Siberia/Canada.
The Hagia Sophia: Vital pre-Steam Power. Raize after that tech.
The Statue of Liberty: Vital. Build it.
Mount Rushmore: Vital. Build It.
Pentagon: Extremely useful. Keep whatever city it is in.
Notre Dame: Moderate utility.
Colosseum: Extremely useful.
Forbidden Palace: I would say build it, except it's hella expensive. If you have a GE lying around, go ahead and rush it. Otherwise, I would let it go.

Projects and National Wonders

National Gallery: Don't bother.
Summer Palace: You should have Communism before you have time to build this.
Manhattan Project: Vital. Build It.
SDI: Vital. Build It.
The Internet: Extremely useful, but expensive. Choose wisely.
Wall Street: Vital. Build It.
Apollo Project: Don't Bother
Ironworks: Vital. Build it.
Olympic Park: Best used late-game to rush ICBMs.
Globe Theater, Red Cross, Trading Company, Interpol: Meh. They all have their uses, but I can normally live without them.

Well, nevertheless, it was a very good game, what abou a "one more turn" to just see what you needed to do to make a domination victory?

Question: How many Great Generals did you got? and what you did to them?

Click to expand...

I don't want to waste my time on playing it out. It was taking me 6 minutes to push all of my units around each turn. I'd rather spend my time on a new game. I only got 4 GGs. I made 3 super specialists, one in Kyoto, Beijing and Chonqing. The forth I dropped as a Military Academy in Chonqing. After Industrialism, it was pumping out marines and tanks with 5XP every 2 turns.

Whitefire said:

Colossus: Marginal. Don't keep the city if it's in a poor spot.
(...)
Summer Palace: You should have Communism before you have time to build this.

Click to expand...

Well, here I have different opinion than you. I built the Colossus for myself, and, believe me, it's making Tokyo the world's bank (just check my posts). Combined with some coinky-oriented cities (in my game, Kisi, Hakodate, and another one in the top southern corner of Siam, for the moment) are allowing me to go 40% science without loss, and without Courthouses. When I research Code of Laws, and build courthouses just everywhere, I guess I would be able to go even 60%. Or even better, when the war with uber-Persia in India is over (I'll talk about this on another post, after making some screenshots).

About the Summer Palace, I have already chosen the place for all my capitals, including the Kremlin's one. When my Palace on Delhi is finished, then I'll start the Summer Palace on Nanchang right away. There's no reason to wait further, as it will lag your economy.

C. colonization of south-east Africa?
Some good sites, easy to defend, and can be used (in future) as a second front for Europe/middle-east.

Click to expand...

That's my plan, as long as it remains almost empty in Vanilla RFC. And the message telling that "The egyptian civilization has dissapeared" has encouraged me to do so. I only pray for the Arabs not to be involved on that event... And after entire east of Africa is mine, I might go for the west. I'm taking on consideration go for Australia, also. Everything depends on how the future war with uber-Persia turns out. I have actually played until turn 239 (coming soon the savegame, pictures and comments ), and it seems like Persia is stalling, and I'm catching them in all aspects. But for the moment, I have a bigger problem, called Gengis Khan.

When my Palace on Delhi

Click to expand...

How many turns did that take to construct? Or did you stick to slavery until India was whipped up like I should have done?

Whitefire said:

How many turns did that take to construct? Or did you stick to slavery until India was whipped up like I should have done?

Click to expand...

Obviously, I'll stick to Slavery. But don't think Delhi has so little production. In another game I had it, and took me just 10 turns without whipping. It's just a matter on how you use your citizens and how you work the landscape. Whenever I do, I'll take both screenshots of the surrounding landscape, and the city screen.

Well, here comes the report of the turns 100-151 (Yes, another slip of hand, ). On the last 51 turns we have concentrated on two issues:
-Expand to SE Asia. We raized Pagan and Hanoi, to build a city on the middle. And we built a city on the top south. I know this may be a waste, but allows us access to some resources (bananas, sugar, dyes, shells); and most important: allows us to control the Java channel, what was the main reason to build it, as long as it is the only way to reach Japan from the west, without caravels (and we expect Persia not to have them). This is of most important to build ZOUNDS of War Elephants to stop our new neighbour on the north: Mongolia.
-Build the Elephant Imperial Guard on Beijing with some help of our cities in Honshu). I don't want to be involved on a war of conquest in Asia, but this one is unavoidable. On research, have engineering as soon as posible it's a key not to miss.

Of less importance, but enough to considerate, it's to build libraries and temples to strenghthen our culture. It's also important to expand steadily our two religions, confucianism and taoism.

To end with: take a look to the "Best cities" screen. We have 3 of 5, and Tokyo continues to be ahead! Wow!

I've played a little further, and look what it happened. Meanwhile Plague strikes Persia, Gengis decides it is enough, and declares war on us!! We hope to finish them in time to get Cyrus still on wet pants. However, as you can see on the next thumbnail, the Mongolian Horde is no match for our Imperial Guard.

EDIT: Ooops, the war had already started when I made the the save.

If in the last post, from turn 151 of play (239 of game) we were on nearly a 6&#37;, on just 20 turns we'll be peaking on nearly an 8%.

Drawback? Our economy is stalling!

fearuin said:

Combined with some coinky-oriented cities (in my game, Kisi, Hakodate, and another one in the top southern corner of Siam, for the moment) are allowing me to go 40% science without loss, and without Courthouses. When I research Code of Laws, and build courthouses just everywhere, I guess I would be able to go even 60%.

Click to expand...

I was very optimistic, but things can be more difficult than what we can expect . It was just to settle on India, and start to fight Mongolia, that our losses increased to the point of being a barely 10% science for some turns. However, Code of Laws reached just in time to strenghen our ruined economy. In fact, I'm thinking to move the Palace to Nanchang now. It will take just 10-12 turns, if I remeber well.

The good point was to capture all Mongolian cities, except Turfan and give them peace in exchange of Compass and Horse Riding. They are collapsing, so in a few turns our army fortified in Karakoron will be healed, and they will become barbs (or I'll declare war on them! ).

I suggest for those who incorpore now to build courthouses and markets just everywhere. Forget the culture for a while.

I built the Colossus for myself, and, believe me, it's making Tokyo the world's bank (just check my posts). Combined with some coinky-oriented cities (in my game, Kisi, Hakodate, and another one in the top southern corner of Siam, for the moment) are allowing me to go 40&#37; science without loss, and without Courthouses.

I never got below 30% on science. And I would have held off on expanding into SE Asia for some time yet as well (which probably would let you stay at 50% research). It's nice to claim that territory, but the cost in worker-turns to develop it makes it more of an after-India area to settle.

On research, have engineering as soon as posible it's a key not to miss.

Click to expand...

The AI always researches that. Several spawn with it. Unless you're gonna go for the Hagia Sophia, which Isn't a bad idea, I would hold off on it and trade something like Philosophy or Paper for it.

Yeah, I would haven't gone for SE Asia if I didn't needed those elephants right away. What I wanted to held off was to expand to India, because Persia was more powerful than me, and Mongols were calling at the doors of Beijing. For that reason I went for Engineering also, as well for catching Hagia Sofia, but I missed. And it is in London, so there's no hope to conquer it. However, the good point is that I'm capturing lots of workers (at least 8 from Pagan and Hanoi, 10 from Turfan, 5 from Cochin) so I don't feel in need at this moment. I guess in some later point I will have to switch to Serfdom, but I will delay it as much as possible.

EDIT: about trading Engineering, we only could do it with Russia, as long as Persia and Mongolia won't trade with us.

EDIT: about trading Engineering, we only could do it with Russia, as long as Persia and Mongolia won't trade with us.

Click to expand...

Did you send a Trireme to Europe? The second ship I used for that purpose. Since I was running with no state religion at the time, I didn't have the negative relationship modifiers and was able to secure a bunch of open borders agreements. Those led to pleased status which let me trade on reasonable terms with most Euro nations.

In my write up I go over the uselessness of State Religion. The two obvious choices, Taoism and Confuciansim, are usually limited to cities within your own borders. So the extra benefit of seeing the cities with the religion is negated. It would be better to spread something like Buddhism or Hinduism, which India and Persia have probably adopted. But I still advise against adopting a State Religion until Free Religion.

Organized Religion has it's uses, but the benefits of faster buildings doesn't offset the ability to trade techs. Plus, you're running slavery. You probably won't be able to grow a population large enough for OR to work at it's full capacity. Theocracy should never be used. You have to spread 2 religions ASAP, 4 once you take India and possibly all teh rest when you flood through Persia to Yerushalem. Pacifism is a decent option. We've got several GP farms (Keijo, Tokyo and Huangzhou) However, by the time you get Philosophy, you'll be so close to Free Religion that it's hard to justify the Anarchy. Then again, only running Pacifism until your GP farms start churning out GPs in >12 turns then hopping to Free Religion isn't a bad idea. Especially if you can get 2+ Scientists or Merchants out of it.

Expansion and Siberia

The most difficult aspect to this domination victory is knowing when and how fast to expand. On this huge map, the number of cities required to grab the land is absurd (at least 45 with 60% borders, all lands tiles and no boundary overlap) so effective management of cities is crucial.

Don't be afraid to raize cities. I know it goes against your instincts, but think of it as cultural terraforming rather than mass genocide. The AI tends to place cities close together, especially in Europe. Why have 3 cities claiming the same area that 1 can?

The tech penalties from cities more than justifies raizing them, and many of the wonders they contain. Besides, you shouldn't be overly concerned with producing buildings and units in your newly acquired land. Roads, Rails and Airports are more than enough to transport your army from your Sino-Japanese core to your front lines whether they be in Europe, Africa or even the Americas.

Expansion should never stop. I know there is that period after conquering China where the economy collapses and the Plague threatens, but letting yourself go into builder mode for more than 20 turns will cost you. You should be building War elephants, not only to stop Mongolia but also to invade India. You should be building galleys to transport units into India. You should be building Samurais and Catapults to run through India. etc.

Also, never stop expanding until you hit a wall. After you take down India, roll into Persia. Did Babylon rise again from Persia's instabiliity? Take em down. Turkey's cultural borders pressing in on you? Raise everything but Hat. Arabia still riding those camels? Show em how your Elephants and Samurai roll. After India falls, you should be able to run through the middle east being stopped by Germany/Russia at Constantinople and possibly no one in Africa. It is extremely important that this wave reaches to the Nile and Bosphorus. Those two sites are highly defensible and will help you resist any invaders.

While all of this is going on You should have crushed Mongolia before they were able to gain a foot hold. I know it's cheesy and against the spirit of the mod to play this way, but we want to win! With Mongolia crushed, this leaves Eastern Siberia open for expansion.

And expand you must! Not only are there a couple fantastic city sites, you must grab this land before Russia does. Every city Russia places is another 10 turns added on to the war. And you can't afford such a time expense. I know some people have questioned the validity of expanding into Siberia, so I've included some images of what I built.


Clean


2050AD



As you can see, even I made a few mistakes. Ulan-Ude should have been raized. Every other city is roughly where I would recommend placement. These cities are actually quite powerful with a large worker corp. Most of them have Forests on every tile and in the surrounding area. Chopping them down gives you 400+ production which lets you race through construction of Forges, Factories and Shale Plants. Once these three are constructed, the large number of hills allows for the quick construction of libraries, markets, granaries, etc. And, as you can see below, they are not only great production cities, they're also great cottage-spam spots.

Feruin, Wolfigor, how are your games coming? I'm finishing up a Korean Domination game in TR and a multiplayer TAM game right now. I want to see if you guys have some different strategies before I go for a second attempt.

Could your tips on how to manage siberia be just as equaly affective for russian domination of the area?

I think its pretty obvious that the current requirement for land area for domination is absurd. I'd be in favor of changing it to a flat 33 or 40 percent. Of course it doesn't overly matter to me since its always the first thing I change when I download a new version.