Alternate History Thread III

that thing in Germany

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The House of Leiningen is proud to present to you the Holy Roman Empire. It has nearly disintegrated in the 13th century, but after the 14th the aforementioned House begun building a strong powerbase for itself, rallying the German princes in a religious war with Avignon Catholic France later in that century and in the 15th century. Prestige from that war, plus a system of dynastic marriages and adroit manipulation of the German feudal houses had allowed the House of Leiningen to eventually build the Holy Roman Empire. After the events of the late 17th/early 18th century (the Great Mediterranean War), the Holy Roman Empire had firmly assumed the position of Europe's leading power and the hegemon of Central Europe. Thus started the Pax Germannica, which lasted until the 1870s-1880s (Age of Nationalism, drawn-out wars, succession crisis, ethnic uprisings and the Italian Revolution had hit the Empire during that period; right now it has recovered in some regards, but is yet to reclaim its hegemonic position).

strongly Roman-Catholic Australia?

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It was a traditionally pious colony from the start (an English Catholic religious order played a large part in its foundation). When the Fifty Years War destroyed the British empire and devastated its homelands, it obviously caused a cultural crisis of identity as well in the Kingdom of Arcadia's early days. That and a tradition of religious dissent culminated in the separation of the Anglican Church from the Roman Catholic one, in Arcadia and the Plate; the Australians, however, being already in ideological contention with Arcadia (disagreements on the "legacy of the British", diverging paths of political evolution, as well as more real disputes over African and South American colonies), grew even more loyal to Rome thanks to the element of spite.

There are other reasons as well.

Informationsayswhat?

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That was mostly part of the intellectual flowering associated with "Pax Germannica". It includes stuff like the theory of relativity.

I suppose I'll revive the tradition of asking for potential recommendations too.

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Kingdom of Arcadia. Duh.

Its a more central posotion to their new Empire, and its easier to administer from Delhi. Evey subcontinent spanning Empire in India had their capital and Delhi at one point or another. Also Pune is too close to foregin territory and vulenrable to attack.

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a) All of your arguments are more or less dubious (how is Delhi central, for one thing?);
b) The Peshwa does not agree with you;
c) If anybody ever does a NES based in this setting, you could probably take the Maratha Confederacy and then move the capital to Delhi if you want to.

the most advanced countries are on the 1840s-1850s Britain level, though it isn't really as linear as that

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It includes stuff like the theory of relativity.

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Does not compute , theoretical physics required advanced experimental methodolgy (namely the experiments raising questions that need theory answers). For example without 1880s+ aluminium chemistry you can't make half-silvered mirrors, wouldn't be able to do the Michelson–Morley experiment accurately, thus would have no need to create a theory of special relativity to solve the results.

I could go on but I won't .

As to your new timeline das it looks pretty cool, though I of course have minor technical quibbles

1) The conquest of Kongo - unlikly that they would go to the bother, until the late nineteenth century technology (specifically tropical medicine, and railroads to get round the Livingstone Falls) to make it anything like worth while - although the river is easily naviable upstream from Kinshasa, you can't get from Kinshasa to the coast, thus all transport must be done by expensive human labour (since the animals die). This is one of the reasons the portuguese left Kongo independent OTL - it wouldn't have been profitable to take over, and they were open to missionaries, so why bother?

2)The americans seem to be doing very well despite a smaller relative population (~ 2:8 rather than 4:10) and the size of militias they can raise.

theoretical physics required advanced experimental methodolgy (namely the experiments raising questions that need theory answers). For example without 1880s+ aluminium chemistry you can't make half-silvered mirrors, wouldn't be able to do the Michelson–Morley experiment accurately, thus would have no need to create a theory of special relativity to solve the results.

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So reasonably one could presume that said experimental methodology is also ahead of the general tech. level.

1) The conquest of Kongo - unlikly that they would go to the bother, until the late nineteenth century technology (specifically tropical medicine, and railroads to get round the Livingstone Falls) to make it anything like worth while - although the river is easily naviable upstream from Kinshasa, you can't get from Kinshasa to the coast, thus all transport must be done by expensive human labour (since the animals die). This is one of the reasons the portuguese left Kongo independent OTL - it wouldn't have been profitable to take over, and they were open to missionaries, so why bother?

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This is, indeed, ONE of the reasons. However, the Portuguese DID try to take over in OTL, and the reason they stopped was their empire's general decline combined with fearsome Kongolese resistance. Here, Portugal/Brazil is reinvigorated, and eager to reassert its colonial empire in Africa. Finishing what they started and avenging past humiliating defeats sounds like a logical step (compare with Italy and Ethiopia). As for missionaries, the ecclesiastical clashes between Portuguese bishops and the Kongolese monarchy were a major point of contention in OTL, so that hardly made the relations any better.

2)The americans seem to be doing very well despite a smaller relative population (~ 2:8 rather than 4:10) and the size of militias they can raise.

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They do have a much larger population than in OTL, and the Spanish example for guerrila campaigns in a civilised nation, and some other advantages, but luck (especially if we class a few genial commanders under luck) indeed was the decisive factor thus far, especially the lucky break provided by the rebellions on the British Isles. Which gives us a particularily interesting situation at the beginning of the hypothetical NES.

das said:

So reasonably one could presume that said experimental methodology is also ahead of the general tech. level.

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Since the methodolgy is based off and linked with general industrial and commercial development (and vice versa) . Aluminum production has other applications you know .

And as for kongo, they win, find it far too expensive in men and money, and suffer another decline . Also reaching further up the congo at this stage is really unfeasible.

Since the methodolgy is based off and linked with general industrial and commercial development (and vice versa) . Aluminum production has other applications you know

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Many applications for aluminium existed already in the 1850s. Anyhow, I don't think its strictly impossible to reach the Theory of Relativity without the level of development you propose. It is unlikely, yes, but stranger breakthroughs had happened.

And as for kongo, they win, find it far too expensive in men and money, and suffer another decline .

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Possibly.

das said:

Many applications for aluminium existed already in the 1850s. Anyhow, I don't think its strictly impossible to reach the Theory of Relativity without the level of development you propose. It is unlikely, yes, but stranger breakthroughs had happened.

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Debateable, until experimental equipment (and the general technical knowledge base necessary to utilise) acheives the accuracy needed to reveal problems with classical mechanics, physicists will stick with the old model as it explains and predicts the facts. There are many, many things that could have been developed with earlier tool, IMHO relativity is realy really not one of them . Indeed if some fluke circumstance had thrown it up, it would have been ignored as mathematical masturbation (much like string theory is today) with no bearing on observable phenomena, and would only have been developed properly when experimental equipment improved, and you get the same result.

I'm not just saying that because I dislike NESes (or more accurately NESers) with nukes .

das said:

Kingdom of Arcadia. Duh.

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I despise colonial empires, and generally dislike pretending to be British. Not that there's anything wrong with being British, but it runs mostly counter to my nature.

Disenfrancised said:

I'm not just saying that because I dislike NESes (or more accurately NESers) with nukes .

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Now, now, you still need fission, relativity just helps you greatly when you get there.

Disenfrancised does have a point in that Relativity was mostly accepted because large gaps were appearing in Newtonian physics that nobody could explain, like the aether theory. Without getting to that point there's no need to accept it (or even look for it) and even if you were able to do so, the technology required to really verify it would need to be around the level of what it was OTL, which makes it very curious for everything else to lag behind.

The next installment is here. PoD is in blue and changes in green. Comments, questions, criticisms are all both welcomed and invited. Hopefully this will not get totally drowned out by the unavoidable enthusiasm surrounding das' latest little ditty. As for particularly requested input, I would like some comments on possible outlets for the Ottomans and future developments in Spain. I have some ideas for both, but I have somewhat stagnated on them. Additionally, any thoughts on Sweden, Denmark, and Norway would be appreciated (I feel like I am missing something important regarding them...).

1428 –
1.) Hussite Lollardy begins to gain popularity in Hungary, particularly among the German-speaking communities of northern Hungary.
2.) Albert III von Bayern-München, heir to the Bohemian and Bavarian crowns, marries Teodóra Kotromanić, a Hungarian princess and sister of King Borić I the Infant Kotromanić.
3.) The Most Serene Republic of Italy invades Bologna in a five pronged attack, moving against Bologna itself with two armies and against their formerly Milanese holdings north of the Po with three armies, two from the west and one from the east.
4.) Siege of Bologna begins.
5.) Northern Bolognese territory conquered, Italian troops redirected south to aid in the siege of Bologna.
6.) Remaining Cypriot forces retreat into the south and of the island, appealing to Western Christendom for aide, which they do not receive.
7.) Under orders of a fearful Khan, the Muscovites invade the much-too-powerful Commonwealth of Lithuania-Novgorod.
1429 –
1.) The anticlimactic Battle of Paphos is fought between Ottoman and Cypriot forces near the ruins of what was once the center of the Aphrodite cult. The Cypriots, too hungry, demoralized, and generally worn out to resist too heartily, are slaughtered by the Ottomans and Orthodox Cypriot peasants in a matter of an hour or less.
2.) With Italian troops focused on the arena south of the Po, Savoy advantageously invades Italy, taking territory up to and past Milan itself as well as much of Liguria, falling short of Genoa, however.
3.) Aragon lands an invasion flight on Corsica, intent to take the territory as its own while Italy is involved with more important matters.
4.) Vytautas repulses the Muscovite offensive with a series of battles in the hinterlands. He proceeds to lead his troops in an offensive into Muscovite lands.
5.) The Battle of Vladimir is spectacularly won by Vytautas, whose forces suffered minimal casualties while inflicting devastating ones. This hands over the symbolic city and the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir to the Commonwealth.
1430 –
1.) Rinaldo degli Albizzi of Florence rallies Italian troops under his command, leading them to a swift series of victories, destroying the Savoisienne army and securing Milan and the associated territory north of the Po.
2.) Rinaldo continues on, leading his troops into a direct offensive against Savoy.
3.) Bolognese and Italian officials sign the Treaty of Modena, incorporating Bologna into the Most Serene Republic of Italy.
4.) The last resistance in Corsica is decimated by the Aragonese.
5.) The Ottoman expansion redirects itself east ward with an invasion of Trebizond.
6.) A second army of Commonwealth forces, consisting mainly of Novgorodians, join up with those under Vytautas, giving him enough men storm the city. In the ensuing celebratory feast that night Vytautas’ dies of a heart attack. Žygimantas I Kęstutaitis, Vytautas’ favored brother, assumes command of the troops and de facto governance of the Commonwealth.
1431 – 1433 –
1.) The Ligurian War continues with Italian and Savoisienne forces clashing along the Savoy-Italy border and Italian and Aragonese fleets staring each other down, trying to outmaneuver one another but never actually engaging in combat.
2.) Lithuanian-Novgorodian troops finish the conquest of Muscovite and allied lands, bringing the remaining independent Russian states (except Yaroslavl and Ryazan) under the Commonwealth’s control.
1434 –
1.) Chambéry is laid under siege after the Italian victory at the Battle of Thonon-les-Bains, forcing the Savoisiennes to the discussion table. The subsequent Treaty of Thonon-les-Bains incorporates Savoy into the Most Serene Republic of Italy.
2.) Hafsid Ifriqiya launches a surprise attack against the Aragonese in support of Italy. The two fleets face off in the naval Battle of Sant’Antioco Island off the southern tip of Sardinia, which is easily won by the fresh and well prepared Ifriqiyans.
3.) In the Battle of San Fiorenzo Bay a combined Italian-Hafsid fleet defeats an Aragonese fleet, securing dominance over the Ligurian Sea and the islands of Corsica and Sardina.
4.) Žygimantas I Kęstutaitis is crowned Grand Duke of Lithuania in Vilnius. Soon there after he is confirmed as Knyaz of Novgorod.
5.) Kujava Kotromanić née Radenović, former regent and de facto ruler of Hungary in the stead of Borić I the Infant Kotromanić, sends Borić the Infant to lead Hungarian forces in an invasion of the remnant holdings of the Teutonic Order.
6.) Gil Eanes, in the service of Portugal, rounds Cape Bojador. The Portuguese enter the African slave market.
1435 –
1.) Italy sends two fleets to retake Corsica and conquer Sardinia.
2.) Italian forces defeat the Aragonese invasion forces in the Battle of San Martino di Lota in central Corsica. In securing the highlands and the eastern coast the Italians are able to drive the Aragonese into relatively defenseless positions and thus to control the island.
3.) The Battle of Mount Ortobene in northern Sardinia drives the Aragonese away from the coast and into the interior.
4.) The Aragonese are forced to retreat into west-central Sardinia where the Italians catch them some ways outside the town of Bosa. The ensuing Battle on the Temo is won by the Italians, who were superior in training, technology, and experience coming straight out of the great battlefields of Northern Italy.
5.) The last of the Aragonese in Sardinia are cornered by the Italians in the southeast of the island. The Battle of Ilbono results in a decisive Italian victory.
6.) In the naval theatre the climactic Battle of Es Migjorn Gran is fought off the southwest coast of Minorca. The mass of the Aragonese fleet is pitted against that of the Hafsids, mercenary Barbary pirates, and a moderately sized contingent of Italian supporters. Both the Aragonese and Hafsids suffer tremendous losses. In the end, the Italians tip the balance and the day goes to the Italians-Hafsids givin them complete naval supremacy in the Western Mediterranean.
7.) Hungarian forces, far outnumbering their opponents, defeat the Teutonic Knights in the Battle of Neuteich. They go on to secure remaining Teutonic territory and to lay siege to Königsberg.
8.) Metropolitan St. Pimen moves the Metropolia of Moscow to Yaroslavl.
1436 –
1.) The Treaty of Vila-real (Villareal) is signed by the Aragonese, Italians, and Ifriqiya. Aragon agrees to hand over Sardinia to Italy and the Balearics to the Hafsids.
2.) The still large Italian fleet launches a sneak attack on their (former) allies, the Hafsid Ifriqiyans. The Battle of La Savina Beach, fought off the coast of Formentera at the southern extremity of the Balearics, results in a definitive Italian victory and the destruction of the Hafsid navy.
3.) Barbary pirates, under hire of the Italians, destroy the harbors of Bizerte, Nabeul, Sousse, Sfax, and Halq al Wadi (La Goulette) and the ships docked there in.
4.) A small Italian force lands in the Balearics, raising the Italian standard over Majorca.
5.) Königsberg falls to the Hungarian forces. The Teutonic Order is no longer extent as a political force.
1437 –
1.) Italian forces establish beachheads in Bizerte and Nabeul.
2.) Forces under Rinaldo degli Albizzi move out from Nabeul to lay siege to Tunis, where the superior Italian troops manage to hold out against valiant Hafsid attempts to break the siege.
3.) A separate army under the command of Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta, the “Wolf of Rimini”, marches on Halq al Wadi from Bizerte taking the city easily.
4.) Malatesta’s troops join in the siege of Tunis.
1438 –
1.) A large Hafsid army, consisting of a mix of Ifriqiyan troops and Berber mercenaries, attacks the back of the Italian besieging forces. The Battle of the Bab el Bahr is fought long and hard beneath the looming shadow of the famed arch. Italy’s superior leadership, greater troop experience, and top-of-the-line weaponry finally win the day due to crafty in-battle diplomacy on the part of the Wolf of Rimini, who manages to persuade the Berber mercenaries to turn their backs on the Ifriqiyans in exchange for chests upon chests of gold florins.
2.) With the fall of Tunis the Hafsid governance collapses and resistance becomes minimal with Italian troops seizing the remaining territory with relative ease.
3.) The Wolf of Rimini, appointed governor of the new Piccola Sicilia, or Little Sicily, territory formed of Ifriqiya, establishes government functions in Halq al Wadi and renames the city La Goletta. Colonizers, mainly from Maltesta’s home lands in Romagna, soon begin to trickle into Piccola Sicilia, in particular the highly Italian La Goletta.

Additionally, any thoughts on Sweden, Denmark, and Norway would be appreciated

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The Kalmar Union had a major commercial and naval conflict with the Hanseatic League in OTL in this time period; that's likely to still happen.

1.) Hussite Lollardy begins to gain popularity in Hungary, particularly among the German-speaking communities of northern Hungary.

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Hussite Lollardy being still essentially Czech, I really don't see that working; if anything Hussite leaders have traditionally singled out the Germans as their enemies, and the German colonists, beign generally quite staunch in their faith, are unlikely to be more receptive to Hus in Hungary than they were in Bohemia.

The Most Serene Republic of Italy

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Name change? A rather ambitious one, too (and anachronistic - Italy was very regional back then, Machiavelli aside). Didn't the Holy Roman Emperor hold the Italian royal title? That would cause problems...

7.) Under orders of a fearful Khan, the Muscovites invade the much-too-powerful Commonwealth of Lithuania-Novgorod.

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There are some problems with this event.

1) There is no real precedent for the Khan ordering an invasion - all he did was collect tribute and appoint princes.
2) Why would the Khan be really "fearful" of the Commonwealth? It is fairly far away, and the Golden Horde Khans have generally tended to underestimate the gravity of their geopolitical position. They had a good reason, too, because the internal situation really was more serious, with constant civil wars and such. Even if a Khan were to be terribly concerned with the western events, the most logical thing to do for him would be to take a huge army and attack Kiev - that is what they had done with "threatening" Moscow, after all, and they have beat Lithuanians before. Maybe he could invite the Muscovites along for the ride, but, agian, there is no precedent and they would be largely useless.
3) Why would the Muscovites follow the Khan's orders? They never did begin doing that again after Dmitry II's reign.

4.) Vytautas repulses the Muscovite offensive with a series of battles in the hinterlands. He proceeds to lead his troops in an offensive into Muscovite lands.
5.) The Battle of Vladimir is spectacularly won by Vytautas, whose forces suffered minimal casualties while inflicting devastating ones. This hands over the symbolic city and the title of Grand Prince of Vladimir to the Commonwealth.

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The geography of this campaign makes little sense. Why would he attack Vladimir before attacking Moscow? The Lithuanians always attacked Moscow in OTL, because it still was rather more important and because it was generally easier to attack (its closer, with all the advantages that entails, and there are less obstacles in the way).

A second army of Commonwealth forces, consisting mainly of Novgorodians, join up with those under Vytautas, giving him enough men storm the city

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Storm what city?

2.) Lithuanian-Novgorodian troops finish the conquest of Muscovite and allied lands, bringing the remaining independent Russian states (except Yaroslavl and Ryazan) under the Commonwealth’s control.

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That implies that Tver is a Muscovite ally.

The campaign in general seems a bit too easy and too fast. 15th century wars were rarely either of that, in general.

IMHO things in general are getting a bit unnaturally fast, here. The pace is somewhat unrealistic, so perhaps that needs to be dealt with. Aside from that the timeline is fine, though I still have doubts over the durability of the Polish-Hungarian union. These things were just made to break up.

das said:

The Kalmar Union had a major commercial and naval conflict with the Hanseatic League in OTL in this time period; that's likely to still happen.

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Knew I was missing something. Thanks!

Hussite Lollardy being still essentially Czech, I really don't see that working; if anything Hussite leaders have traditionally singled out the Germans as their enemies, and the German colonists, beign generally quite staunch in their faith, are unlikely to be more receptive to Hus in Hungary than they were in Bohemia.

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If you remember, in TTL Bohemia and Bavaria are united under a single monarchy with Hussite Lollardy being popular throughout the Bavarian lands. The Hussites in TTL are far less anti-German than in OTL due to different politics among the leadership.

Name change? A rather ambitious one, too (and anachronistic - Italy was very regional back then, Machiavelli aside). Didn't the Holy Roman Emperor hold the Italian royal title? That would cause problems...

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Italy was, indeed, very regional, but the idea and symbol of Italy was very much present in the culture. I would highly doubt that the Florentines would discard such a powerful propoganda tool. Also, do note that the "Most Serene Republic of Italy" is hardly a centralised state. It is a sort of confederation with each major city having significant autonomy all of them held together mainly by Florentine force and the general prosperity and power that the union has brought to the Italians (they have secured the Western Med and Tunisia after all). The Holy Roman Emperor did hold the title King of the Romans, but I am not aware of him holding any title "King of Italy" or the such.

There are some problems with this event.

1) There is no real precedent for the Khan ordering an invasion - all he did was collect tribute and appoint princes.
2) Why would the Khan be really "fearful" of the Commonwealth? It is fairly far away, and the Golden Horde Khans have generally tended to underestimate the gravity of their geopolitical position. They had a good reason, too, because the internal situation really was more serious, with constant civil wars and such. Even if a Khan were to be terribly concerned with the western events, the most logical thing to do for him would be to take a huge army and attack Kiev - that is what they had done with "threatening" Moscow, after all, and they have beat Lithuanians before. Maybe he could invite the Muscovites along for the ride, but, agian, there is no precedent and they would be largely useless.
3) Why would the Muscovites follow the Khan's orders? They never did begin doing that again after Dmitry II's reign.

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1.) From what I understood the Khan at this point was very fond of using Moscow to prevent the rise of other states. Perhaps "order" is too strong a word, maybe "highly suggest" is more appropriate?
2.) Lithuania-Novgorod is hardly far away from the Khan's power base and much more of a threat than you realise. By this point in OTL Vytautas had successfully conquered his way through numerous Slavic principalities to form an empire stretching from the Baltic to the Black Sea. In TTL Vytautas has an even greater power base and more of an Eastern focus. I did not think it was necessary to outline each individual state that Vytautas conquered, as it follows a path very similar to OTL and could be assumed. Add this to the large Russian power base already held by the Novgorodians, the scarily effective and militant leadership of Vytautas, and the fact that all of this territory falls within the de jure realm of the Golden Horde, and you have a very serious threat.

The geography of this campaign makes little sense. Why would he attack Vladimir before attacking Moscow? The Lithuanians always attacked Moscow in OTL, because it still was rather more important and because it was generally easier to attack (its closer, with all the advantages that entails, and there are less obstacles in the way).

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I'm afraid my knowledge of Russian geography was not up to par. Will fix and change to a direct attack on Moscow, or would there be another city more appropriate?

Storm what city?

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Moscow. I changed a lot of points in this part and forgot to rewrite this particular point to clarify that it was Moscow. Will fix.

That implies that Tver is a Muscovite ally.

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Forgot to mention them. Will fix.

The campaign in general seems a bit too easy and too fast. 15th century wars were rarely either of that, in general.

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You are entirely ignoring the campaigns of Vytautas, which in OTL created a very large empire from the Baltic to the Black. Given the much greater power base of Lithuania-Novgorod in TTL than of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in OTL I do not see the war as being too fast at all.

IMHO things in general are getting a bit unnaturally fast, here. The pace is somewhat unrealistic, so perhaps that needs to be dealt with.

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Besides Russia, is their anything else that seems to fast? I admit the Italian wars are somewhat fast, but I did not think they were too fast. Things should be slowing down in the next installation a bit as the Italian frenzy calms down and Vytautas dies.

Aside from that the timeline is fine, though I still have doubts over the durability of the Polish-Hungarian union. These things were just made to break up.

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Well, not when you consider just how powerful Hungary itself is. I recently did a rough draft of Europe up to this point based on the map NK did for me, and Hungary comes out more powerful than I expected. Louis and Tvrtko the Great achieved much more than one might think in just reading the TL.

Some PoDs that would be much better if experts worked on it.

Muslim Moors defeat French at battle of Tours/Poitiers (732 AD)

Franco-Bavarian army defeats Marlborough and Saxony in the battle of Blenheim (1704)

Germany wins the Somme (1916)

Stalingrad was captured by the Germans (1942)

Japan wins Battle of Midway (1942)

The first one has been done to death, the third one has been done to death, the fourth one has been done to death, and the fifth one has been done to death. The Alt Hist threads here have seen dozens of TLs and every one of that sort of obvious PoD, so please, try something a little more unique.

If you remember, in TTL Bohemia and Bavaria are united under a single monarchy with Hussite Lollardy being popular throughout the Bavarian lands. The Hussites in TTL are far less anti-German than in OTL due to different politics among the leadership.

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Hmm, no, strangely enough I don't remember that at all. I suppose that would change things, yes (though the Germans in Hungary were Saxons, not Bavarians, and the latter were the least German of those that remained Germans; perhaps this would eventually lead to Bavarian culture splitting away from the German one as well, like the Swiss one did?).

The Holy Roman Emperor did hold the title King of the Romans, but I am not aware of him holding any title "King of Italy" or the such.

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All the Emperors held that title, actually - until Napoleon took it for himself.

1.) From what I understood the Khan at this point was very fond of using Moscow to prevent the rise of other states. Perhaps "order" is too strong a word, maybe "highly suggest" is more appropriate?

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Actually, he simply propped it up in its natural struggles with its neighbours, and perhaps set it on that course by granting the title of the grand prince to the Muscovite prince. There isn't much he could do unless Muscovy itself gets into trouble. Which it is bound to, ofcourse.

2.) Lithuania-Novgorod is hardly far away from the Khan's power base

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It was hardly far away in OTL; the Khan perceived it to be far away, however, and reasonably so because the steppe formed a nice barrier.

and much more of a threat than you realise.

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The Khan and I.

By this point in OTL Vytautas had successfully conquered his way through numerous Slavic principalities to form an empire stretching from the Baltic to the Black Sea. In TTL Vytautas has an even greater power base and more of an Eastern focus.

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Actually it seems more like a northern focus, because for the last few years he was campaigned in the Baltic region and intriguing in Novgorod - so his threat is perceived to be lesser.

Add this to the large Russian power base already held by the Novgorodians,

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Whom the Mongols tended to ignore.

the scarily effective and militant leadership of Vytautas,

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Whom the Mongols have already beaten up once. "Teutons-schmeutons, he still is no match for us".

and the fact that all of this territory falls within the de jure realm of the Golden Horde, and you have a very serious threat.

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Same existed in OTL, and Kiev is for many reasons more significant than Novgorod as far as the Mongols were concerned.

I'm afraid my knowledge of Russian geography was not up to par. Will fix and change to a direct attack on Moscow, or would there be another city more appropriate?

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Moscow would make the most sense; for some reason it was the favoured target of everybody that was at war with Muscovy in this time period in OTL (i.e. Novgorod, Ryazan, Golden Horde, Lithuania...). So that would still work.

You are entirely ignoring the campaigns of Vytautas, which in OTL created a very large empire from the Baltic to the Black.

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But these did take more time than that.

Given the much greater power base of Lithuania-Novgorod in TTL than of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in OTL I do not see the war as being too fast at all.

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Part of the charm or of the annoyance of contemporary warfare was that it was very time-consuming. Sieges made it difficult and time-consuming for even the greatest empires to advance; just look at all the trouble Mehmed II went through to take what was just one city, albeit highly significant, expertly (but still obsoletely) fortified and strategically-positioned - and even then he had a somehow implausible amount of luck on his side.

Besides Russia, is their anything else that seems to fast? I admit the Italian wars are somewhat fast, but I did not think they were too fast. Things should be slowing down in the next installation a bit as the Italian frenzy calms down and Vytautas dies.

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The Italian wars are mostly okay; some of the French events earlier in the timeline were a bit too fast, but I suppose it wasn't outside of the realm of possibility.

Well, not when you consider just how powerful Hungary itself is.

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Gah. What does Hungary's power have to do with anything, here? It is irrelevant unless it is used to subdue Poland's dissenting elements by force, and that is likely to cause a local civil war at the least. Unless such a radical course is taken, Hungary's fortunes in Poland depend entirely on intrigue and what they can offer to the szlachta - as opposed ot the intrigue and the promise of the other competitors for the Polish throne, which to some extent will include just about every major royal house in Europe, because Poland, for all of its troubles, is large, powerful and at the same time comparatively easy to seize - an unique opportunity to alter the balance of power epically.

The first one has been done to death, the third one has been done to death, the fourth one has been done to death, and the fifth one has been done to death.

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The second one has been done to fatal injury too, by now.

Somewhat implausible but interesting scenario:

1.) During the early 1980s, ideally late 1980 itself, a rather large asteroid is detected as being on a very high probability collision course with Earth by both the US and USSR. Time is short.
2.) Both superpowers talk to other about it since it's rather a threat to both, and to the other nuclear powers.
3.) A joint agency is set up to do something about it. Ultimately it becomes clear that the only means capable of deflecting it is multiple salvos of nuclear warheads by all nations with such a capability (since stupid stuff like Armageddon and Deep Impact has never made much sense when you could launch thousands of warheads to save yourself instead of just one or two, either knocking it off course or successively vaporizing the chunks from the last salvo)
4.) The sort of timing and plans necessary to do such a thing are drawn up and initiated. It ultimately takes virtually the entire strategic stockpile of both countries, but it works in deflecting the asteroid.
5.) Humanity celebrates, having come perilously close to extinction.
6.) Opportunists, realizing the superpowers are now limited to air-delivered or tactical nuclear weapons (vast as those stockpiles are) begin to mobilize to fight their own little wars of revenge and conquest.
7.) Hardliners on both sides begin thinking the same way, particularly in the Kremlin, where it appears the West is pulling ahead under new, dynamic leadership (and new technological initiatives, such as a much more seriously taken SDI--this time also built to defend Earth). It appears that now the potential exists for a purely conventional war so long as nobody squeezes the nuclear trigger first, and if that's the case...
8.) NATO positions along the Fulda Gap start falling silent one by one. The world goes to war.

Wait...all the worlds nuclear stockpile in space? Won't that rain down some incredible radiation doses on the Earth? Or is it miniscule compared to the Sun's gamma rays....

Unless a warhead goes off somewhere within the confines of the of the magnetic field it's lost to the void and completely inconsequential, because it's never getting back to Earth.

The main assumption is that the majority of strategic launch systems have the fuel and delta-v to make escape velocity, which some of them at least wouldn't. I do believe that the superpowers would launch everything they had that could however if it became necessary to do so to survive, however, as you can always build more nukes. You can't really build a new planet.

How bout a POD were the world randomly configures itself to a desirable shape for a NES?

How bout a POD were the world randomly configures itself to a desirable shape for a NES?

Click to expand...

Ooh I have one of those:



I have absolutley no explantion for it just that I thought it would be fun.