Is Philosophical any good for a Specialist Economy

OK, the title may sound crazy, but I am serious.

First some background - I play Monarch/Emperor, so any advice on how valuable Philosophical is to lightbulb techs so you can participate in tech trading on those levels isn't relevant to me - On Monarch / Emperor I can stay in the tech trade game. Similarly any advice about it being impossible to get wonders on the highest levels isn't relevant.

I was thinking about the order in which I rank traits. And I had placed Philosophical up with Financial in the top tier. But I did that based more on anecdotes than experience. My personal experience of Philosophical is that it is anything but a top tier trait.

In fact, I have been more successful running an SE with Industrious and Spiritual leaders than with Philosophical ones. I have probably generated GP as quickly with those leaders and there are other benefits in both traits.

My most successful Philosophical games have been ones where I ran a cottage economy in most cities and just setup the capital as a GP farm. By the time other cities were in the position to start generating great people the capital had set the bar high enough that they hardly could any more.

So how do you play Philo to maximize the trait? I am not certain it actually suits a specialist economy that well.

The traits I have had the most success with a SE are:

- Industrious. On Monarch and Emperor I can pretty much guarantee getting the Pyramids and the Great Library, both of which are huge for a SE. On Monarch I can probably also get Oracle and Parthenon. Build a lot of wonders in a city and my GP production is probably equal to a philo leader due to the free ongoing GPP from wonders. I really capitalize on this building a lot of wonders in one city which grows more and more productive. When the city isn't building wonders it runs specialists - and some of the wonders bring in more specialist slots anyway.

Also industrious helps me get the National Epic up quickly. A capital with good hammers and food becomes a monster with this trait. Combines very well with Org religion and creates a very strong economy. The rest of the empire can run specialists for science from the pyramids when it gets to happy cap, but run cottages otherwise.

- Spiritual. With spiritual I am not reliant on wonders - I will generate GPP from specialists. But I am running caste system and pacifism much more often. Instead of being forced to choose between slavery and caste system I can run both. Running 6 scientists in my capital with caste system will beat the GPP production that a philo leader running two scientists would get me. Not to mention I can switch the cities producing GPP easily, and still whip in critical infrastructure (while running org religion) or prepare for devastating war.

- Aggressive. My most successful SE games have been with Spiritual/Aggressive, Industrious/Aggressive and Creative/Aggressive (probably because I captured the pyramids). Not sure if this particularly lends itself to a SE or it just combines well to reinforce a SE.

So what am I doing wrong? It seems strange to me that the trait that appears to most suit a specialist economy doesn't work for me as well as other traits.

Part of my problem is that an SE needs to play with either caste system or slavery. If I pick caste system then I am condemned to low production and end up rushing up the tech tree but having a weak infrastructure. If I pick slavery then I am limited to a couple of specialists initially and once the threshold for the next GP gets high the GP flow seems to die off. It seems like its set up for an all or nothing rush to get to cavalry quickly with minimal infrastructure and hope you can turn it around with a cav rush.

The other problem I see is that I can't see much point in running specialists without the pyramids or the expectation that they will produce a great person. With industrious, I get the pyramids. With spiritual I can run specialists in production cities for extra research (while still having some cottage cities) and have a few GP farms which can crank out a lot of GPP when I run caste system and pacifism.

Industrious is a GREAT SE trait. Spiritual is also VERY GOOD.

But Philosophical is THE trait imho. You are overstating how dominant your 1 specialist city is in the early game. I routinely will have my capital and an enemy capital running max specialists, and even a 3rd or 4th city running max specialists as well during research phases (mainly for run to liberalism).

The second city will not produce as many as the capital, but it certainly will net you 3+/- extra early GSs, which is a huge boon. The 3rd and 4th cities can generate 2 and 1 respectively before being converted to cottage or production centers as long as you get them running specialists before your 2 main cities have generated too many gps.

The thing about philosophical is that your great people are coming EARLIER!!! That is something that can't be replicated. Parthenon, with an industrious leader is great, and helps a lot, but it is only 1/2 the effect of philosophical and doesn't last the whole game. Philosophical late game is also good for golden ages and GE farming (with Freddy for example).

I run SE with both industrious and philosophical (and like spiritual as a support trait with Ramesses and Gandhi for example). They are both great, but different. Industrious is about nabbing pyramids (get GL in both versions) and using representation to enhance pure beakers while lightbulbing a bit more slowly. Philosophical is all about pure lightbulbing power. Being very early to liberalism is nothing to sneeze at. On monarch/emperor where I also play I lightbulb my way to liberalism with phil leaders routinely ca. 500AD, sometimes earlier. It can be done faster at higher levels. Then keep lightbulbing to cav or grens and go nuts.

You just need more simultaneous gp centers earlier to see the full advantage of the trait. If you run scientists only in one city for awhile early on, it is still good, but not nearly as powerful as if you are pumping GSs out of multiple centers.

Even that one GS that comes out of your 3rd/4th city is great. Who can't put a GS to work early in the game???

Possibly timing is the issue. I tend to want to use the trait ASAP, so I rush writing and whip in a library into the capital. Then I really want the Great Library, so I am rushing through to literature. Often my second city has been chosen for its axe generating potential rather than libraries, and its a long time before my third and fourth cities will get settled, resources developed and grow to size 6 to whip in a library (Creative Philo would be a good combo for this reason). By that time its not unrealistic for my capital which has much better tiles to be aiming at the GL, which I will chop aggressively for. If I have marble or I had stone, its highly likely that I will get the GL before my third and fourth cities have libraries. (If I had stone I would probably get the pyramids and then use the engineer from that to rush the GL).

So cities 3 & 4 have to compete with a capital that has 2x the scientists. But also I will build the National Epic next. Effectively they have to compete with a capital which produces 4 scientists * 300% = 12 scientists, each running only 2 scientists * 200% = 4 scientists. If I get the GL in my capital what then happens is no other city ever produces a great person.

Delaying the library for an early axe rush might do it - but its only a good opportunity on maybe a quarter of the maps I play.

futurehermit said:

The thing about philosophical is that your great people are coming EARLIER!!! That is something that can't be replicated. Parthenon, with an industrious leader is great, and helps a lot, but it is only 1/2 the effect of philosophical and doesn't last the whole game.

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What do you do with the EARLIER great people? By earlier I mean before you have civil service (after that the next three scientists will get used for lightbulbs)? You can use one for Philosophy. One for an academy. But what else? It seems a waste to lightbulb mathematics since you can trade for it. Once you have philosophy, getting the three scientists you need for paper/education is fairly easy whatever leader type. I guess with Philo you might have them already saved, but you still need to do a lot of self researching before you have cavalry. Usually liberalism, gunpowder and MT all need to be researched manually.

Part of my problem is that an SE needs to play with either caste system or slavery. If I pick caste system then I am condemned to low production and end up rushing up the tech tree but having a weak infrastructure.

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Your production is only low if you plan to lightbulb your greate persons away. If you really insist on burning them off, one work around may be to grab Wat, (yeah, a pain if you have no hammers), then turn on all priests. You'll have a strong base of hammers while contributing lots of GP pts. They'll all contrib +3 beakers with Rep, and they are DOMINANT to Great Engineers. Same amount of hammers, but you'll get extra gold.

InvisibleStalke said:

What do you do with the EARLIER great people? By earlier I mean before you have civil service (after that the next three scientists will get used for lightbulbs)? You can use one for Philosophy. One for an academy. But what else? It seems a waste to lightbulb mathematics since you can trade for it. Once you have philosophy, getting the three scientists you need for paper/education is fairly easy whatever leader type. I guess with Philo you might have them already saved, but you still need to do a lot of self researching before you have cavalry. Usually liberalism, gunpowder and MT all need to be researched manually.

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You can set up an Academy in your best research city with the first GS. I've lightbulbed Maths to with one when I got him really early. Yes, I could trade for it, but that usually means giving Alphabet in return, and opening AIs to trade with each other. I guess it just depends on the situation. Also, if you do have enough GSs you can also trade/tech Metal Casting and Compass and have another GS partially lightbulb Liberalism. That's a total of 7 GSs (with the Maths one) pre-Liberalism. I doubt you can do that with a non-Philo leader and still have enough production power...

InvisibleStalke said:

Possibly timing is the issue. I tend to want to use the trait ASAP, so I rush writing and whip in a library into the capital. Then I really want the Great Library, so I am rushing through to literature. Often my second city has been chosen for its axe generating potential rather than libraries, and its a long time before my third and fourth cities will get settled, resources developed and grow to size 6 to whip in a library (Creative Philo would be a good combo for this reason). By that time its not unrealistic for my capital which has much better tiles to be aiming at the GL, which I will chop aggressively for. If I have marble or I had stone, its highly likely that I will get the GL before my third and fourth cities have libraries. (If I had stone I would probably get the pyramids and then use the engineer from that to rush the GL).

So cities 3 & 4 have to compete with a capital that has 2x the scientists. But also I will build the National Epic next. Effectively they have to compete with a capital which produces 4 scientists * 300% = 12 scientists, each running only 2 scientists * 200% = 4 scientists. If I get the GL in my capital what then happens is no other city ever produces a great person.

Delaying the library for an early axe rush might do it - but its only a good opportunity on maybe a quarter of the maps I play.

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You are concentrating too much GPP production in one city, which is why it dominates and seems to supress other cities. Try building wonders in other cities or exploit captured wonders. Use your capital to build the axes and your second city to build a wonder perhaps? Maybe Oracle => Confusionism in second city. Build the Shrine there with the resulting Prophet for more gold and GPPs. I usually cottage up my capital in a Philosophical SE/HE and only build the GL there ready for a mid game Oxford. The capital plus cottages plus Bureaucracy plus Oxford plus Academy = lots of . Later in the game this "distributed approach" comes to the fore when Mercantilism becomes the preferred civic, also Pacificism is better when GPP production is distributed among several cities. Then you'll have several cities benefitting from these powerful civics rather than one mega city - with a greatly increased useful GPP output and hence more GPs.

Plus other GPP production only seems to be useless when really it is useful if you leverage the trait. In fact when you do the maths you can see that even 1 GS produced in the middle game from a little city that has been running 2 scientists from a library for many turns is still a very big bonus. Even if it is competing with a powerful city those 12 GPPs per turn from a little city can eventually produce the goods if you are dedicated.

Let's do some sums. It takes 83 turns for 2 scientists to produce 1000 GPPs, enough for the 10th GP, and that takes 332 food in total. The GS is worth approximately 2000 beakers if you lightbulbed something at that stage of the game. So those little guys will have given you 7.5 beakers every turn for 4 food, and 12 GPPs which would eventually (in the Renaissance perhaps) be worth 24 beakers / turn for an effective total of 31.5 beakers / turn. That seriously outperforms a few extra cottages over that time (assuming you built cottgaes instead of farms in the city). This is the reason why the need for Representation in a Philosophical SE is a complete myth - it would only add another 7.5 beakers/ turn, which is only another 23%. Philosophical on the otherhand added 12 beakers / turn or 38% of the total output.

That 334 food produced 83*7.5 = 622 beakers plus the 2000 from the lightbulb is a very good return and quite independant of what is happening elsewhere. But it does require a long term perspective on GP production. A non Philosophical leader would have to spend twice as long to do that and effectively have to spend 668 food for the 2000 beakers = 3 beakers/food compared with the 6 you would be getting. One way of thinking about Philosophical is that it saves you food used in producing GPs, rather than boosting GP production.

I play on Prince level but marathon speed and huge maps which make things challenging themselves. I use phil leaders to mass produce specialists in my capital, period. I will go for as many reasonable wonders expecially the great library in the capital with the national epic, get as many specialists as I can running and churn out the great people. They are mostly scientists but I always have a plan on what to use others for, profits for shrines or bulbing, engineers for wonders (rarely bulbing something like metal working), artist for agressive culture bombs in conquered (preferably capitals) cities, merchants for gold missions. My great scientists are used for 1) philosophy 2) acadamy in capital, 3) education, 4) academy in next best commercial city (usually one is a cottage spammer). Philosphical leader fo me means I will usually found philosophy and get the holy city, and get to liberalism. The other benefit for a philosophical leader that noone really talks about is fast universities. The AI is slow to education (at least most are) so me beelining to education gets me a 25% boost and +4 culture in alot of cities pretty fast, plus the early construction of Oxford. Fast universities as better than creative's fast libraries since most will whip/chop a library along but does anyone chop/whip a university (AI's don't). At this point I am way ahead in tech pace, trade, and generally will go space (susally) or crush a domination wins using tanks/artillery (which I proudly did as Ghandi against Catherine/Alexander/Julius/Ragnar once). Phil leaders are great MID-GAME and not a real early or late benefit, they reguire a good deal of patience to max their benefits. Are they best for sepcialists ecnomies, yeah, at least for huge maps where AI's tend to overexpand and weaken their teching ability (except for Wang Kon who seams to like compact kingdoms). I do not like to rate traits as they are all useful. I will say it is not always the most fun to play because it takes a while to utilize, I still prefer spiritual the best followed by industrious.

UncleJJ said:

You are concentrating too much GPP production in one city, which is why it dominates and seems to supress other cities. Try building wonders in other cities or exploit captured wonders. Use your capital to build the axes and your second city to build a wonder perhaps? Maybe Oracle => Confusionism in second city. Build the Shrine there with the resulting Prophet for more gold and GPPs. I usually cottage up my capital in a Philosophical SE/HE and only build the GL there ready for a mid game Oxford. The capital plus cottages plus Bureaucracy plus Oxford plus Academy = lots of . Later in the game this "distributed approach" comes to the fore when Mercantilism becomes the preferred civic, also Pacificism is better when GPP production is distributed among several cities. Then you'll have several cities benefitting from these powerful civics rather than one mega city - with a greatly increased useful GPP output and hence more GPs.

Plus other GPP production only seems to be useless when really it is useful if you leverage the trait. In fact when you do the maths you can see that even 1 GS produced in the middle game from a little city that has been running 2 scientists from a library for many turns is still a very big bonus. Even if it is competing with a powerful city those 12 GPPs per turn from a little city can eventually produce the goods if you are dedicated.

Let's do some sums. It takes 83 turns for 2 scientists to produce 1000 GPPs, enough for the 10th GP, and that takes 332 food in total. The GS is worth approximately 2000 beakers if you lightbulbed something at that stage of the game. So those little guys will have given you 7.5 beakers every turn for 4 food, and 12 GPPs which would eventually (in the Renaissance perhaps) be worth 24 beakers / turn for an effective total of 31.5 beakers / turn. That seriously outperforms a few extra cottages over that time (assuming you built cottgaes instead of farms in the city). This is the reason why the need for Representation in a Philosophical SE is a complete myth - it would only add another 7.5 beakers/ turn, which is only another 23%. Philosophical on the otherhand added 12 beakers / turn or 38% of the total output.

That 334 food produced 83*7.5 = 622 beakers plus the 2000 from the lightbulb is a very good return and quite independant of what is happening elsewhere. But it does require a long term perspective on GP production. A non Philosophical leader would have to spend twice as long to do that and effectively have to spend 668 food for the 2000 beakers = 3 beakers/food compared with the 6 you would be getting. One way of thinking about Philosophical is that it saves you food used in producing GPs, rather than boosting GP production.

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Wow, for the record, I had the same problem as Invisible, not doing well with philosophical leaders. This is really helpful!

Thanks!

Breunor

@ Invisible Stalker:

1) I delay libraries until after axerush if at all possible. I aim to build the GL in an enemy capital. I beeline lit after worker techs are done, then axerush, then GL/NE in enemy capital.

2) After war is done, libraries in all cities (should have 4-6 at this point, I aim for 6). Switch to caste sys and pacificism as soon as available. Run max scientists in 2-4 cities (for sure your capital and enemy capital).

Doing it this way you can generate a lot of GSs in both capitals and the odd GS in your 3-4 city. Lightbulb through liberalism, get a renaissance unit, and then stomp your next opponent(s)

Thanks - a lot of good advice here,

Agreed - will make me look at Philosophical a bit differently.

Philosophical is very powerful. Even the fact that you can run 2 scientists early on and get a very, very quick academy in your capital is sweet. Love this with Elizabeth.