What Would It Take to De-rail the Global Economy?

Peak Oil. Oil production reaches a peak and starts going in a downward spiral. End of cheap transportation for the foreseeable future. This will occur rather soon unless alternative means of fuel are able to pick up the slack which at this point it won't unless there is a surprise technological revelation or or intense program to find and put this out.
I asked this question in a another thread so I'll ask it here....

The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.--John Maynard Keynes

Narz--maybe you can explain a few things to us novices that peak oil theory is imminent and I emphasize imminent.

Most of the theories I've read say that unrestrained extraction of a finite resouce rises along a bell-shaped curve that peaks when about half the resource is gone. Would you agree with this assessment?

If so does this actually mean externalities like regulations, taxes (complex investment structures), technology, policy considerations (Venezuela production decline and key employees moving to Alberta) and even wars (see Iran/Iraq wars impact of offshore wells) don't impact the level of production and exploration?

The strangest part of the argument to me is how they believe that discovery and depletion is what nature has to offer rather than being influenced by oil prices which then determines the amount of capital available for drilling. It also seems to discount policy considerations whereby governments (see Venezuela again) determines when exploration is allowed, at what economic value and what can be extracted.

I guess as an investor (my own small opinion) would be the drop in exploration reflects sound economic behavior since no one wants to waste money exploring for something that won't be used for decades.

Last, why am I to believe your theorists over the geologists at USGS or the people who have developed an extremely expensive database at Petroconsultants (IHS Energy). Are your people made up of academics that prove their work like this? I've see a lot of graphs but no citations. If they did have proof I'm sure every oil futures trader would want that database and would pay considerably more than websites and books these guys sell.


But is the US government not running both trade and budget deficits? How will taxes be raised enough or expenses be lowered enough to Put the US back into the black?
The US has to become more fiscally conservative on the government side however the trade figures are dubious imo. If you consider affiliate sales in Canada, for instance, our trade surplus is 5x greater than our reported trade deficit. If affliliates are reported it works out to a $1.2 trillion surplus. Only Japan has the edge on both in the US.

I think if there was a trend that would derail global economics it would be protectionist strategies.
 
Manufacturing power is great but what good is it if another producer can do it for cheaper. Or worse yet people lose confidence and stop buying.

But in a global crash other manufacturing centers wont be able to do it cheaper. Its not like Chad or Mongolia is going to fill the gap quickly. Buy the time either got its manufacturing base up the US, EU, China, Russia, AUS, Japan and others will have corrected them selves.
 
So If I were a Creditor and I saw that my debtor only made money for Four years out of 300. I would stop lending and say pony up.

I don't think you know how the treasuries market works. People, like you and I, or even corporations or nations can buy treasuries. They receive semi-annual interest payments, and once the bond, bill, or note matures they receive their money back. It's been like this for a very long time, it won't change anytime soon.
 
I don't think you know how the treasuries market works. People, like you and I, or even corporations or nations can buy treasuries. They receive semi-annual interest payments, and once the bond, bill, or note matures they receive their money back. It's been like this for a very long time, it won't change anytime soon.
OK that's fine, but If T-bills pay 5% for five years doesn't that mean the US gov't must make pull more than that in the long run in order to service their debt?
 
OK that's fine, but If T-bills pay 5% for five years doesn't that mean the US gov't must make pull more than that in the long run in order to service their debt?

Yes, and I see where you are going. I am saying that will won't destroy the American government, the American economy, or the global economy. It is a problem, but right now I think it is at 65% GDP. Japan's is around 130%.
 
OK that's fine, but If T-bills pay 5% for five years doesn't that mean the US gov't must make pull more than that in the long run in order to service their debt?
The US has run over 130% debt to GDP in our past. The benefit the government has is the power to tax and they will. It's still the largest safe and liquid debt market in the world. IE European debt markets are larger however it's fragmented amongst 5 major markets and multiple smaller market.
 
Yes, and I see where you are going. I am saying that will won't destroy the American government, the American economy, or the global economy. It is a problem, but right now I think it is at 65% GDP. Japan's is around 130%.

How can this not be a VERY serious problem? How can we even think that we will repay these debts when rising oil prices are already eroding the wealth of nations? I think one day we will just say to hell with it all. And we will see a very different order of things.
 
The US has run over 130% debt to GDP in our past. The benefit the government has is the power to tax and they will. It's still the largest safe debt market in the world. IE European debt markets are larger however it's fragmented amongst 5 major markets and multiple smaller market.

We all know somebody has to take some pain to finance a debt. Whose Shoulders is this going to fall on?
 
How can this not be a VERY serious problem? How can we even think that we will repay these debts when rising oil prices are already eroding the wealth of nations? I think one day we will just say to hell with it all. And we will see a very different order of things.

Our level of debt has fluctuated throughout history. I think it reached its highs during World War II. At 65% we have nothing to worry about, and that doesn't mean we should just spend, spend, spend.
 
How can this not be a VERY serious problem? How can we even think that we will repay these debts when rising oil prices are already eroding the wealth of nations? I think one day we will just say to hell with it all. And we will see a very different order of things.
Eroding what wealth? Last I looked I think we're on our way to our 5th year of 5% global GDP growth.

Mulholland said:
We all know somebody has to take some pain to finance a debt. Whose Shoulders is this going to fall on?
It's actually pretty cheap finance when you can borrow for 10 and 30 years at 5%. A lot less painful than 13%+% we saw in the late 70's. The fact is the US government needs to face the music on spending and taxpayers on higher taxes.
 
Eroding what wealth? Last I looked I think we're on our way to our 5th year of 5% global GDP growth.


It's actually pretty cheap finance when you can borrow for 10 and 30 years at 5%. A lot less painful than 13%+% we saw in the late 70's. The fact is the US government needs to face the music on spending and taxpayers on higher taxes.

Well rising costs of transportation, food, fuel etc. erode the net savings of any individual. We all know that wages are stagnating for the bulk of the middle class while costs are rising (unless you buy cheap foreign goods). They are also more heavily indebted than ever. The middle class are the ones who demand goods and services and contribute the most in taxes to the government. As their wealth erodes so does that of the economy.


By the way the economy grew at 5% but at what rate did net borrowing increase?
 
An Alien Invasion, a total nuclear war, or an impact by a super comet.
 
Well rising costs of transportation, food, fuel etc. erode the net savings of any individual. We all know that wages are stagnating for the bulk of the middle class while costs are rising (unless you buy cheap foreign goods). They are also more heavily indebted than ever. The middle class are the ones who demand goods and services and contribute the most in taxes to the government. As their wealth erodes so does that of the economy.


By the way the economy grew at 5% but at what rate did net borrowing increase?
I don't understand.
Debt where and how? Is it wrong for a firm to borrow at 6% and write off the interest? Debts are simply a way to finance further growth. Sometimes good (if the product sells) and sometimes bad (if the products doesn't). It ultimately comes down to cash flow.
I'm not sure how buying cheap foreign products is negative for the global economy and in particular middle class people?
 
War. Distrust. This whole consumer victimization by imported products thing that has been in the media.
 
I asked this question in a another thread so I'll ask it here....

The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.--John Maynard Keynes

Narz--maybe you can explain a few things to us novices that peak oil theory is imminent and I emphasize imminent.

Depends what you mean by imminent. I don't know whether it has already begun or it will begin at the latest at around 2030 which is a number produced by geologists on the oil company's bankroll (making their opinion biased) so I wouldn't be able to answer your question. If it has already happened as stated by some experts, we're . .. .. .. . out of luck. If it doesn't start until 2030 we have about another decade to reel from the shock and look into alternative fuels and meet peek oil with a soft thud rather than a crash. At the rate it's going, if peak oil reaches us within the next 10 years, we're in for real bad times ahead. Fact is, peak oil will be reached within the next three decades and there is no doubt about that, I'm hoping that it's in 2030.

Most of the theories I've read say that unrestrained extraction of a finite resouce rises along a bell-shaped curve that peaks when about half the resource is gone. Would you agree with this assessment?

more or less, yes.

[qutoe]If so does this actually mean externalities like regulations, taxes (complex investment structures), technology, policy considerations (Venezuela production decline and key employees moving to Alberta) and even wars (see Iran/Iraq wars impact of offshore wells) don't impact the level of production and exploration?[/quote]

no

The strangest part of the argument to me is how they believe that discovery and depletion is what nature has to offer rather than being influenced by oil prices which then determines the amount of capital available for drilling. It also seems to discount policy considerations whereby governments (see Venezuela again) determines when exploration is allowed, at what economic value and what can be extracted.

Oil companies have in recent years reported record profits yet oil production is beginning stagnate. We reached the peak of new major oil field discoveries 40 years ago and haven't discovered a major oil field in 30 years. Many of the major oil fields being reported today are in fact medium sized oil fields.


"Technology is great, but it can't find what's not there. In the last five years, we consumed 27 billion barrels of oil a year, but the oil industry discovered only three billion barrels a year. So only one barrel was replaced for every nine we used."

- L.B. Magoon, U.S. Geological Survey


I guess as an investor (my own small opinion) would be the drop in exploration reflects sound economic behavior since no one wants to waste money exploring for something that won't be used for decades.

Oil demand is rising faster than the rise of oil production. The reason for the drop of exploration is due to the fact that with todays geographical knowledge of the characteristics of a major oil field, if there was another, we'd have found it by now. As I said, we are draining old oil fields faster than we are discovering new ones.

Last, why am I to believe your theorists over the geologists at USGS or the people who have developed an extremely expensive database at Petroconsultants (IHS Energy). Are your people made up of academics that prove their work like this? I've see a lot of graphs but no citations. If they did have proof I'm sure every oil futures trader would want that database and would pay considerably more than websites and books these guys sell.

Peak oil as defined by M. King Hubbert states that the production peak will occur when half the available oil, give or take a small percentage has been pumped from the ground. Calculating it all requires a bunch of calculus and information on production and estimated reserves, and it works, Hubbert predicted the peak of US oil production 14 years before it happened. It also worked for Canadian oil production, but his prediction for world production was thrown off a few years by production cutbacks during the Arab oil embargo, the Iran Iraq war, and Gulf War II. However with all that complex calculus it's no wonder that many don't understand the theory, how it works, and what it means.

Moving forward a few decades brings us a simplified method from Kenneth S. Deffeyes, a colleague of Hubbert's at Shell Oil way back when. He noted that the oil production curve of a nation and by extension the world is almost the same as the oil discovery curve, it's just offset to the future by a few decades. Find the discovery curve and the peak point on it, then look up data for the production curve, match up the points to find the offset and this allows the peak production year to be predicted. This works out to late 2005.
 
I don't understand.
Debt where and how? Is it wrong for a firm to borrow at 6% and write off the interest? Debts are simply a way to finance further growth. Sometimes good (if the product sells) and sometimes bad (if the products doesn't). It ultimately comes down to cash flow.
I'm not sure how buying cheap foreign products is negative for the global economy and in particular middle class people?

Just to clarify, when we're talking about the foreign debt of a nation is that not simply government debt? It doesn't include private and household debt, does it?

In my opinion, debt and loans in of themselves self are not bad things but massive amounts that cannot possibly be repaid are. I am just very doubtful that we can continue along this current growth curve and I am very skeptical that the current profits will end up in the hands of governments and not in offshore tax havens. As I said before as costs rise due to increased energy costs and normal inflationary pressures people will lose not only the will to buy the means as well.
 
War tends to invigorate economies.
Be careful of the window breaker fallacy. It can be a benefit to countries with little involvement who are receiving minimal destruction, and you can sell arms to the countries involved.

But it can wreck the economies of the main participants.
 
1. One good solid war could knock out the world economy. A few well-placed nuclear weapons would do the trick.

2. Debt is a non-issue. The USA has been in debt for about 300 years, at varying levels. The last time the debt was close to zero was in Andrew Jackson's days (I think that's right...I'll look it up). We have had varying levels of yearly deficit/surplus, but the country has always been in debt.

3. The upper class does pay nearly all of the taxes. Thanks Godwynn for putting up the statistics.

4. Peak oil theory...never underestimate the power of human innovation. Or the innovative effect of high prices.

Integral
 
Depends what you mean by imminent. I don't know whether it has already begun or it will begin at the latest at around 2030 which is a number produced by geologists on the oil company's bankroll (making their opinion biased) so I wouldn't be able to answer your question. If it has already happened as stated by some experts, we're . .. .. .. . out of luck. If it doesn't start until 2030 we have about another decade to reel from the shock and look into alternative fuels and meet peek oil with a soft thud rather than a crash. At the rate it's going, if peak oil reaches us within the next 10 years, we're in for real bad times ahead. Fact is, peak oil will be reached within the next three decades and there is no doubt about that, I'm hoping that it's in 2030.
So you don't really know and can show no proof or citation? More like a guess.
ArmorPierce said:
more or less, yes.
Hmm...the problem I have with this is no country has unrestrained extraction. Everywhere there's a host of regulations and taxes that affect the level of exploration and production. In fact, few countries exhibit production in a classic bell curve
ArmorPierce said:
OK I'll play. Why?
ArmorPierce said:
Oil companies have in recent years reported record profits yet oil production is beginning stagnate. We reached the peak of new major oil field discoveries 40 years ago and haven't discovered a major oil field in 30 years. Many of the major oil fields being reported today are in fact medium sized oil fields.

"Technology is great, but it can't find what's not there. In the last five years, we consumed 27 billion barrels of oil a year, but the oil industry discovered only three billion barrels a year. So only one barrel was replaced for every nine we used."

- L.B. Magoon, U.S. Geological Survey Oil demand is rising faster than the rise of oil production. The reason for the drop of exploration is due to the fact that with todays geographical knowledge of the characteristics of a major oil field, if there was another, we'd have found it by now. As I said, we are draining old oil fields faster than we are discovering new ones
I think this is the biggest error in Peak Oil theories. The argument that the drop in discoveries proves scarcity of a resource is the best example of understanding causality. While it's true discoveries have dropped in the 70's from the previous rate however this was due, in large part, to a drop in exploration in the Middle East. Governments nationalized (a huge number globally) and cut back drilling as demand for their oil fell by half, leaving enormous supplies of unexploited reserves. None of the pessimists show discovery over time by region which would support this. Two recent discoveries in Kazakhstan and Iran purportedly would be equal to 10% of remaining undiscovered oil by Peakers. Statistically this is unklkely. Government decision making is a huge impact. If you don't believe me I suggest you read this piece by Roger Stern on why Iran is having so many problems with their oil complex and can't meet quotas. It's hardly an extraction issue and this dutch disease seems to be catching up to Venezuela quickly.
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/0603903104v1.pdf
ArmorPierce said:
Peak oil as defined by M. King Hubbert states that the production peak will occur when half the available oil, give or take a small percentage has been pumped from the ground. Calculating it all requires a bunch of calculus and information on production and estimated reserves, and it works, Hubbert predicted the peak of US oil production 14 years before it happened. It also worked for Canadian oil production, but his prediction for world production was thrown off a few years by production cutbacks during the Arab oil embargo, the Iran Iraq war, and Gulf War II. However with all that complex calculus it's no wonder that many don't understand the theory, how it works, and what it means.

Moving forward a few decades brings us a simplified method from Kenneth S. Deffeyes, a colleague of Hubbert's at Shell Oil way back when. He noted that the oil production curve of a nation and by extension the world is almost the same as the oil discovery curve, it's just offset to the future by a few decades. Find the discovery curve and the peak point on it, then look up data for the production curve, match up the points to find the offset and this allows the peak production year to be predicted. This works out to late 2005.
Gaussian curves may explain population trends well but haven't been very successful on oil. Hubbert's original prediction was that global oil production would peak in 1995. He was wrong, but proponents of Peak Oil simply moved the date and came up with an explanation. We might continue to have increasing oil production for the next 10 years. If that happens, Peak Oil still won't be refuted. Peak Oilers will simply argue that they were a little off in the date, and that the urgency of doom is even more pressing. Ultimately, innovation hasn't even been discussed and the transportation sector (1/2 of global consumption)is an area where we are rapidly seeing change.

Mulholland said:
Just to clarify, when we're talking about the foreign debt of a nation is that not simply government debt? It doesn't include private and household debt, does it?

In my opinion, debt and loans in of themselves self are not bad things but massive amounts that cannot possibly be repaid are. I am just very doubtful that we can continue along this current growth curve and I am very skeptical that the current profits will end up in the hands of governments and not in offshore tax havens. As I said before as costs rise due to increased energy costs and normal inflationary pressures people will lose not only the will to buy the means as well.
Why can't they be paid?
As far as trends go what you're suggesting sounds like a normal economic cycle to me. Peak to trough and back.
 
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