Cultural Deity before 1000AD is possible

To give a brief description per request of my Inca Marathon Small Inland Sea 1316AD game.

Settled with corn and 2 golds, found in the fat cross wheat also; other tiles - mostly wooded grassland, good for chop-rushing and cottaging.
Built 4 quechuas before growing, stole 2 workers from Fred and 2 from Bismarkm captured Bismark's 2 cities (my 2nd and 3rd cultural cities later - food, river, dyes so that you so not need cottages. Then captured 2 Fred's cities, 1 with gold, 1 with production, stone, marble and later it became my GP farm (no more than 6 artists though - really short on food).
This all drew down my economy - my closest neighbour was Musa, therefore I had to push another way and was stretched - despite war spoils from cities. Knowing that I went from start Mining-Hindu-Wheel-Pottery for cottages, then Masonry and Phood for Oracle (very important IMO for such a short-tech game), then Writing-Alphabet and picked CoL with Oracle. I also built Parthenon, though not in my cultural city of which I regretted later, though it provided additional GA points to my GP farm. Other wonders failed usually several turns before completion, and I wasted many forests on it. Finally I completed Sistine and NotreDam for GA points and high culture. Of the others I think Pyramids are the priority, especially for Spiritual.

After Alphabet I traded for all early techs, BW, IW, Maths, Mono, Monarchy, Currency, went for Literature for NE and Music for free GA. Then it was CS, Philo and Theology with GP (I ran mixed scientist-prophet points in my Oracle city to lightbulb either Theo or Philo), Paper, Edu, Lib-sm - Nat-sm, PPress, full stop. Unfortunately, Taj race was also lost. Warlords provide heavy gains from trade in cash, especially after wonder-building. From trade I got later also all lower branch up to Economics., although if I wasn't so greedy, I could've pulled out with Constitution and maybe Corporation.

I had effectively 5 religions (4 founded and Buddhism spread), at finish I was also covered with Judaism from Asoka. Cathedrals 5-5-3. Pop-rushed religious buildings in my cultural cities early so they would double their output fast. Pop-rushed then to 2-3 pop and built extra farms to grow back. Didn't manage to grow all cottages possible, but with religious buildings and theatres and terraces and libs and monuments gained 1070-960-560 in my cities. One more GA (coming from 1 more food resource, for example) would've sped it up by 13 turns to 1290AD.

Civics: revolted to Slavery + OR for temple/missionary pop-rush through the empire.
Next revolt: Bureau + HRule for higher output from capital
Last revolt: Castes+Pacifism+Free Trade for finish run when almost all was pop-rushed.

What could be done better:
- getting cities closer
- getting more wonders
- revolting to state religion earlier to exploit OR.
- not missing Pyramids to speed up research with Repr and finishing builds with US
- loads of other stuff like starting major pop-rush earlier
 
:lol: I was just fooling around on an immortal culture attempt. Was going pretty well, had gifted techs to all so they were happy with me. Then Hatty of all people DOW's on me. I was +6 (+3 for civics, +4 for trade, -1 for trade with enemy). Even after we were at war, she showed as "pleased" with me. Never seen her backstab before.
 
To give a brief description per request of my Inca Marathon Small Inland Sea 1316AD game.
Thank you very much.:goodjob: Quite a different strategy!
Saving so many turns of settler and worker building let your capital free for a fantastic raw culture output. I would like to build the Parthenon in my peaceful culture games, but I keep choosing no-marble starts and also I am scared of delaying my settling, land runs out fast in Deity.
Thanks again, very enlightning.
 
One good thing about posting intermediate data from my games is that I can now read my post as if they were someone else's and criticize them. I have found a fundamental mistake related to Hermitage.

My theory was “the capital is much better, let’s use the Hermitage in the second cottage city so that it levels out and then let’s use all bombs in the GPfarm. Sound alright, doesn’t it? But it is based on the ignorance of the total number of GA in a game.

I have had 15GP every game. Let’s say that I will beat the record (something like 1250AD) and then I will have less time for GP generation. Let’s say 14 then. 2 of them GS, 12 bombs are left. The GPfarm only needs 7. So I have 5 left for evening up both cottage cities.

With the exception of the “bad-second-city-game”, I have always used at least 2 bombs in the capital. All cities have reached legendary in the same turn. What would have happened if I had magically transported my Hermitage to the capital. Say I go 100% culture at 1AD. Say I have taken Nationalism for free and it takes 10 turns to build Hermitage. Then I have 40 turns left to use it.

Raw culture in my cities was something like 100-60-40 in 1AD and 150-100-60 in 1300AD. So the mean lost culture by taking Herm. out of the second city is 80cpt. The mean won culture in the capital is 130cpt. Instead of reaching legendary at the same time, there will be a difference of 40*(130+80)=8400c between the cities. Ok, now by not bombing 2 GA in the capital but in the second city I can even out as much as 2680*4= 10000+c.

Conclusion: Hermitage in capital is better.
How many turns better? The Hermitage is giving 130cpt instead of 80cpt for 40 turns, I would have won a total of 2000c. So I would have saved almost 2 turns simply by building the Hermitage in the capital.
 
My results in Major14 are always around 1350AD. I am following the rules I stated in this thread. I haven’t had a lot of luck in those games, it’s true, but luck alone wouldn’t take me to a sub 1000AD finish. What can I do to improve?
Here are some ideas that I am considering:

1.- Hermitage in capital, (refer to previous post).

2.- I am building a single library in my games, the one in the capital. It is being built quite late. If my capital is giving 60% of my total research output, producing the capital 7 turns early would save me a whole turn of civ-wise research.
Why am I building the Library so late? Well, the capital has to grow a bit at the beginning, but then warriors are needed for exploration. Then Settlers and Workers are needed. Then I build the granary and while doing so I grow to my happiness limit. Then I don’t start building the library because I don’t want to grow any more, so I built additional settlers and workers, which are needed anyway… you get the idea.

What about building additional warriors for happiness in HR? I never do that, because it feels like wasting 10 good hammers. But they could pay off quickly, by working a 2-1-0 tile, for example. Or even better, by working and additional cottage. Maybe I would keep building one warrior after another and growing the capital well beyond the initial happiness limit, that wouldn’t help the library, but it would help research anyway.
I have to try it (someday).

What about building the library before the granary? Sounds counter-intuitive, but it could work. When do I really need the granary? At 1AD, when I have researched liberalism and move the slider to 100% culture. It is not so useful before that.
I have to try it (someday).

3.- More GP. The GPfarm is the critical factor in the games. The perfect cultural game will probably found the GPfarm as the second city in a 4 food resources site (with a couple of hills too). But that requires a lot of tries, till you find such a good second spot.

What about making your capital the GPfarm? The advantage is that you can choose your capital site before you start playing. So you just leave MapFinder running one night and then you have the perfect GPfarm capital at hand.
There are disadvantages, though. The 8 commerce from the palace are inefficient in the GPFarm, since I am not going to build cathedrals in the GPfarm, they won’t get multiplied. The main problem is research and Bureaucracy. If your capital is running artist, it is not getting beakers nor hammers, so Bureaucracy is inefficiently used.
I don’t think I’ll try this one anytime soon.

4.- Use a third GS for Liberalism, by refraining on trading for Machinery, as suggested by ParadigmShifter.

5.- Forget about peaceful methods and give old Quechuas a run.

6.- Vanilla Saladin is good alternating between slavery and CS. He also has good chances for an early religion and for Parthenon.

7.- No more ideas at this time… keep on thinking.
 
5.- Forget about peaceful methods and give old Quechuas a run
Yeees, cometo the dark side... Actually, I'm thinking of trying it out - only not Inland Sea, the distances there are too great for Quick.

As for #6, Salad starts with Wheel and Myst - you'll have to research both Agri and Mining to occupate your worker before Religious techs.
 
I always build Hermitage in the capitol.

I always build a library before a granary in the capitol

Here's an idea you forgot which I think is wise: Use only 1 GS or even ZERO.
Philo takes me about 3-4 turns to research late, right before Liberalism. I've even been able to trade for it for free! Being able to start Free Speech 3-4 turns sooner is not worth it. Especially when you're talking about turn 85 (give or take). Your cities aren't doing much culture/turn at that time. An extra GA would be best. I'll try to get a good run with zero GS's.
 
I always build Hermitage in the capitol.

I always build a library before a granary in the capitol.

Hey, why didn't you tell me before! :p


Here's an idea you forgot which I think is wise: Use only 1 GS or even ZERO.
Philo takes me about 3-4 turns to research late, right before Liberalism. I've even been able to trade for it for free! Being able to start Free Speech 3-4 turns sooner is not worth it. Especially when you're talking about turn 85 (give or take). Your cities aren't doing much culture/turn at that time. An extra GA would be best. I'll try to get a good run with zero GS's.

Ummmm. We are (will soon be) 80 turns researching and 50 accumulating culture. Shouldn't the emphasis be put on the long researching phase?

In fact I am tending to try to lightbulb 3 or 4 GS. No GS at all means:
-More turns researching.
-Not revolting to Pacifism when you discover Civil Service.
-The AI can win the Liberalism race.
-Delaying your trading for Music.
-Growing faster because you don0t have to assign early scientists.
-More GA to be bombed.
-(At least) one early bomb to take territory.
-The possibility to lightbulb Music for free.

Hmmm, more advantages than disadvantages in a list I was going to use to show you were mistaken :crazyeye:

Please, give it a shot and tell us which year you discovered Liberalism. I think that will be the main disadvantage.
 
The Lib race is tougher. But...

- Pacifism that early is wasted. I dont' want a state religion that early and I don't run specialists then, it's time to build and grow. I like Org Rel for building missionaries without monasteries. You don't even need a state rel for that.

- I get first to music (another free GA, and I get to start cathedrals early). Liberalism around 300 AD. My goal is 90 turns sci/40 turns culture

- staying in Bureaucracy longer is good for building most cathedrals/Herm in the capitol.

- Biggest disadvantage I see is I don't found Taoism.

I haven't had much time (or luck) yet with a decent map. I also have a couple vacations in August, so I hope I can get one good one in.
 
Yeees, cometo the dark side... Actually, I'm thinking of trying it out - only not Inland Sea, the distances there are too great for Quick.

jesusin, don't bother trying Inca without Warlords. They get Industrial which is way better than Aggressive for cultural.
 
jesusin, don't bother trying Inca without Warlords. They get Industrial which is way better than Aggressive for cultural.


Hey don't forget that also granary gives +2 culture and is very early up. Which means it will double very early too. Why every ability of incas seem to work for different victories so well.

-Dracandross
 
The Lib race is tougher. But...

- Pacifism that early is wasted. I dont' want a state religion that early and I don't run specialists then, it's time to build and grow. I like Org Rel for building missionaries without monasteries. You don't even need a state rel for that.

- I get first to music (another free GA, and I get to start cathedrals early). Liberalism around 300 AD. My goal is 90 turns sci/40 turns culture

- staying in Bureaucracy longer is good for building most cathedrals/Herm in the capitol.

- Biggest disadvantage I see is I don't found Taoism.

I haven't had much time (or luck) yet with a decent map. I also have a couple vacations in August, so I hope I can get one good one in.

I don't see how you can get Music,CS, Liberalism without Lighbulbing and without being beaten to Lberalism. What is your research rate? I think I am doing 150bpt after I revolt to Bureaucracy and 200bpt when I get Liberalism.
 
Hey don't forget that also granary gives +2 culture and is very early up. Which means it will double very early too. Why every ability of incas seem to work for different victories so well.

-Dracandross

:eek: Granary gives culture !?! I didn't realize there were so many differences with Warlords...and 99% of them turn out to be advantages. I thought maybe vanilla had the edge on this one because of the way "building culture" supposedly does not get multipliers in Warlords...but 2 from a granary is better.
 
Granary only gives culture for Incans (Terrace, unique building).

You really don't want to hear about some of the other UBs then. Forum (Rome), replaces market, +25% GPP gained!

Odeon (Greece), replaces Colosseum, +2 happy instead of +1, can turn 2 citizens into artist.

Those are the ones that are good for culture games anyway, I figure.

EDIT: Forgot the pavillion (China), replaces theatre, +25% culture!!!
 
I don't see how you can get Music,CS, Liberalism without Lighbulbing and without being beaten to Lberalism. What is your research rate? I think I am doing 150bpt after I revolt to Bureaucracy and 200bpt when I get Liberalism.

You must go Bureau late if you get 150bpt. I'm getting about 80bpt at 790BC when I switch. I get alphabet as early as 2380 BC. The trick to beating them to music is to not trade alpha. If you get alpha early enough, you can trade writing, etc. for early techs. Then trade CoL since you're letting them get Philo.
 
I thought maybe vanilla had the edge on this one because of the way "building culture" supposedly does not get multipliers in Warlords
Well, it gets "hammer" multipliers (which you won't get except Forge and maybe Bureau, though) and it is no longer halved.
 
I don't see how you can get Music,CS, Liberalism without Lighbulbing and without being beaten to Lberalism. What is your research rate? I think I am doing 150bpt after I revolt to Bureaucracy and 200bpt when I get Liberalism.

You must go Bureau late if you get 150bpt. I'm getting about 80bpt at 790BC when I switch. I get alphabet as early as 2380 BC. The trick to beating them to music is to not trade alpha. If you get alpha early enough, you can trade writing, etc. for early techs. Then trade CoL since you're letting them get Philo.

My numbers were given from the top of my head and they were quite inacurate. I have checked the 1355AD game and I was doing 80bpt at 650BC after I revolted to Bureau and 160bpt when I got Liberalism.

Not trading Alpha explains a lot of things. I trade or gift Alpha as soon as I can. 2 or 3 turns after I have discovered it (pre 2000BC too) they all have gotten it from me.

Both Lexad and you seem to be playing against the AI. You are running a race aginst them and try to delay them in order to get all that you want (Music, Liber) before them. Lexad takes all the he wants... he is just bloodthirsty ;) , he envies their cities. I try to play this games with the help of the AI. I try to be towed by them. So I make everything I can (but trading CS or Philo) to help them: low waters and minimum number of AI so they are big and wealthy, early gifted Alphabet so that they research faster, etc... I then can choose PP from Liberalism because several of them have already got Nationalism and I can trade for it, faster Literature in trades, etc.

The advantage of my approach is faster research overall, including my civ. The disadvantage is I renounce to the Music GA, I fail to found religions, I get beaten to TajMahal... That's why we are getting similar victory dates when our approaches are so different.

This is a wonderful game, isn't it?
 
Well, I leave enough AI to tow me onwards and trade for most techs I need. As I usually get unlucky with spreading of foreign religions, I prefer to found Confu and Tao myself, but except for Philo I trade for all non-Liber techs.
 
Doesn't trading philosophy just mean that the AI gets liberalism even quicker? I do trade it if a few of the AI have it though, I may as well get something out of it. I've still not managed to beat anyone to liberalism (on quick speed, mind).

Barbie said "Math is hard". I say "Deity is harder".
 
AI have low research priority for Paper - don't trade it away and you'll increase your chances.
 
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