SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

LowtherCastle · Jul 31, 2007

Alex is just to the W of the SW end of the of the big landmass. You can see it in the culture save BP provided.

Here's a nw dot map with some ideas.

klarius · Jul 31, 2007

Ok correct my out of the head MM calculations while at work :rolleyes:

.
150-(37+30+45)=38 = 6 turns, which means immediately after chop is accounted for we can pop.
But the alternative is to wait another probably 3 turns until fishing is one turn from completion giving then 35 hammers overflow into the wb.
Agriculture shows 8 turns, but only barely (changing pigs to river goes down to 7). And probably the game does anyway not value the barbs correctly.

Big Pig · Jul 31, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
Here's a nw dot map with some ideas.

How about putting Coppertown 1S of the copper? - it is then a port and gets all the dyes in the fat cross EDIT: and (unlike the other 2 options) it can chop and work the hill (EDIT2: but of course, has no food tiles

)

EDIT: Also I'm not sure about putting gold city E rather than SE of the gold - it wastes a 30h chop, has a lot of overlap with clam city and is not a great production city anyway, whereas SE will be a decent commerce city

LowtherCastle · Jul 31, 2007

klarius said:
150-(37+30+45)=38 = 6 turns, which means immediately after chop is accounted for we can pop.
But the alternative is to wait another probably 3 turns until fishing is one turn from completion giving then 35 hammers overflow into the wb.
Agriculture shows 8 turns, but only barely (changing pigs to river goes down to 7). And probably the game does anyway not value the barbs correctly.

Okay, without going into a zillion variations, I think this is our best option, unless we build wkr2 b4 settler.

This is my confirmation of your calcs:

T0 wkr mv to forest
T1 wkr starts chop
T5 chop done; settler has 102
T8 Agri done, wkr farms bananas, settler has 123; REVOLT to slavery (if earlier, wkr waits another turn to start farm)
T11(12) Fishing done (not sure about here), settler has 137(144)
Two turns later wb done, arrives at clams on same turn as city settled.

Big Pig · Jul 31, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
Okay, without going into a zillion variations, I think this is our best option, unless we build wkr2 b4 settler.

This is my confirmation of your calcs:

T0 wkr mv to forest

T1 wkr starts chop

T5 chop done; settler has 102

T8 Agri done, wkr farms bananas, settler has 123; REVOLT to slavery (if earlier, wkr waits another turn to start farm)

T11(12) Fishing done (not sure about here), settler has 137(144)

Two turns later wb done, arrives at clams on same turn as city settled.

Sounds good to me

PS. Why isn't wkr already on forest?

LowtherCastle · Jul 31, 2007

Big Pig said:
How about putting Coppertown 1S of the copper? - it is then a port and gets ~~all~~ both of the dyes in the fat cross so does E of copper. EDIT: and (unlike the ~~other 2~~ NW options) it can chop and work the hill (EDIT2: but of course, has no food tiles )

EDIT: Also I'm not sure about putting gold city E rather than SE of the gold - it wastes a 30h chop, has a lot of overlap with clam city and is not a great production city anyway, whereas SE will be a decent commerce city

Yes, I also considered the S of copper site for the port. (Speaking of which WTH? why haven't we defogged those sea tiles S of dyes!?!?!?!??!? Luckily the scout is right around there now, so I can hop over and do that. P.s. I didn't mv the wkr because I didn't need to yet...))

The S site has only 1 chop b4 fc. But it's good if we want it for galleys to Sal. Very slow growth but that's probably not a problem since we won't have IW for an eternity anyway. The E site earns an extra coin (or two) working the river grass tile(s). EDIT: The S site has a 11 :hammers:

post-IW cap, the E site 14 :hammers:

(because of food limitations).

On Gold City, I disagree that it's not a good prod site, in fact it's our best, alongside Copper City, at 8 :hammers:

/t at pop3, and has additional :hammers:

potential w/o IW. There's no overlap with Clams City if Clams are for commerce. Finally, GC SE is not a Drojf and that's a 2 1/2-turn delay for galleys going to The Continent (if there's a bridge). Btw, I like both cities sharing the stone. They can trade off when building lh or whatever.

Gold City and Clams can be good commerce centers. Maybe that's the best idea for us. But then the question is, where are we going to produce our pre-IW military units?

Big Pig · Jul 31, 2007

klarius said:
But on the other side we can try the peace thing, hoping to get a religion (does peace really help ?).

At peace, once one of us has Sailing (assuming we can get to Alex without Astro or a culture bridge) we should get :traderoute:

with Alex, which increases our chances of religion spreading to us. (Actually, this is also quite a neat way of seeing if we need a culture bridge or not to reach Alex)

Erkon · Jul 31, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
Okay, without going into a zillion variations, I think this is our best option, unless we build wkr2 b4 settler.

This is my confirmation of your calcs:

T0 wkr mv to forest

T1 wkr starts chop

T5 chop done; settler has 102

T8 Agri done, wkr farms bananas, settler has 123; REVOLT to slavery (if earlier, wkr waits another turn to start farm)

T11(12) Fishing done (not sure about here), settler has 137(144)

Two turns later wb done, arrives at clams on same turn as city settled.

Sounds good

Erkon · Jul 31, 2007

Big Pig said:
At peace, once one of us has Sailing (assuming we can get to Alex without Astro or a culture bridge) we should get with Alex, which increases our chances of religion spreading to us. (Actually, this is also quite a neat way of seeing if we need a culture bridge or not to reach Alex)

Will we really get trade if there are fogged coast? I thought there was a requirement that there must be open and revealed coast (not blocked by barbs in a normal game).

Erkon · Jul 31, 2007

We have connection to the south (to Saladin), to the NE (the island) and NE of rice. So we need a WB to explore NE since that will reveal if we need astronomy.

LowtherCastle · Jul 31, 2007

I forgot to check how soon our borders expand again, but I suppose on T76 so that will be a while. Still I think we should use the 1st wb for Clams City, right?

Erkon · Jul 31, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
...
On Gold City, I disagree that it's not a good prod site, in fact it's our best, alongside Copper City, at 8/t at pop3, and has additional potential w/o IW. There's no overlap with Clams City if Clams are for commerce. Finally, GC SE is not a Drojf and that's a 2 1/2-turn delay for galleys going to The Continent (if there's a bridge). Btw, I like both cities sharing the stone. They can trade off when building lh or whatever.

Gold City and Clams can be good commerce centers. Maybe that's the best idea for us. But then the question is, where are we going to produce our pre-IW military units?

Sure, it's a good production site, but that is not what we need. We need commerce so that we can tech to construction/calender/currency/literature asap. We don't need pre-IW military units, apart from galleys, do we? You know how much I hate to disagree with you, LC, but the clam/stone city is a Drojf, and that is enough I think. We're probably not see that much traffic as I first feared.

EDIT: ok, you're right, gold city could be a good production city 1E of gold...

Erkon · Jul 31, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
I forgot to check how soon our borders expand again, but I suppose on T76 so that will be a while. Still I think we should use the 1st wb for Clams City, right?

Sure, it's not worth a detour, but perhaps we should build another WB while we grow?

One more thing, the clam/stone city we're talking about is located 1N of stone, yes? If so, I don't see any reason not to play a few turns, since I think we have reached a consensus, have we not?

Erkon · Jul 31, 2007

Murky said:
Alex can make for a good war ally against the other civs. We should consider doing a peace deal.

If Alex has a small island, he will probably declare on one of the AI, which is good IF we can join him, but bad if it results in a military build up making it harder for us in case Alex fails to do any damage (the AI is awful at sea invasions...)

Still, he would be a good trade partner for our cities.

So, yes, I think we should DoP him at once.

LowtherCastle · Jul 31, 2007

To me the only reason to settle Gold City SE is to have rice in the ghetto. How much population do you want in these cities...?

We're not going for space again, are we?

Erkon · Jul 31, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
Alex is just to the W of the SW end of the of the big landmass. You can see it in the culture save BP provided.

Here's a nw dot map with some ideas.

What about a city 1S of western dye? FC will contain rice, banana, 4 grass/hills and one plains/hills. At size 7 => 17 :hammers:

And CopperCity 1NE of copper will at size 5 have 13 :hammers:

klarius · Jul 31, 2007

I don't think Alex will declare soon. He's not Monty

.
I think he will rather settle some cities on the big continent after he has sailing. Then build-up and look for a target.

LowtherCastle · Jul 31, 2007

Erkon said:
One more thing, the clam/stone city we're talking about is located 1N of stone, yes? If so, I don't see any reason not to play a few turns, since I think we have reached a consensus, have we not?

Okay, if there are no objections or concerns, I'll go ahead and finish my turnset which will bring us to the revolt to slavery, I think. So I'll finish the Revolt so we have a fresh screen-full of data to absorb.

That means Agri, settler(most).

I'll be playing about 2 am GMT

Note, that if Alex can't build a 2nd city, then barbs won't appear till Qin or we settle another, right?

Erkon · Jul 31, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
To me the only reason to settle Gold City SE is to have rice in the ghetto. How much population do you want in these cities...?

We're not going for space again, are we?

They will cap at 5 before calender, yes? And after calender we'll probably have WW...

I think both 1E and 1SE are suitable locations. The 1E is good for :hammers:

, while 1SE is better suited if its a :commerce:

-city. Why? Because we don't spoil the forest.

Big Pig · Jul 31, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
To me the only reason to settle Gold City SE is to have rice in the ghetto. How much population do you want in these cities...?

We're not going for space again, are we?

or to be able to poprush for an extra 45h every 18t....

SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

Deity

... !

bringing home the bacon

Deity

bringing home the bacon

Deity

bringing home the bacon

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

... !

Deity

Deity

bringing home the bacon

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