Request for a Civ4: BtS "Intermediate" Succession Game

Well, while I feel that economic buildup is a safe path, on the other hand we are aggressive, so why waste that? :)

If this was Warlords I would say that invading China early is the better option, and therefore vote jamesds. In BtS I'd have to say it's a much more challenging option (we are bound to face a hard battle), and since challenges are fun, I vote Jamesds :goodjob:

One thing, though: We can't invade before we get construction. We just can't. Qin is protective and we will lose almost all our troops in the first battle unless we bring catapults.
 
Thanks for getting in your vote frob, now we shall begin round 4!

Solver's Unofficial Patch

I think it is best we all update our Solver's Unofficial Patch version, so go here to download the version I acquired at 10:15am today - we can all be sure of having the same version this way.

Round 4

Round 4 will continue from Jamesds' save (thanks all for your votes :)) which can be found in Post #223.

Play for 30 turns, up to and including turn 140. Is it too much to say we should all have our round 4 saves submitted with reports for Saturday 1st September? If that isn't possible, then have it in by Sunday 2nd.

So, keep in mind all that has been said, but feel free to play your game and do what you think is best.

See you all here tomorrow ;)
 
Well, that was an eventful and busy 30 turns! Here’s my report and save - don't look unless you have completed your turnset :).

Spoiler Report for Round 4 :
I will admit that I had to reload twice at turn 138, not to try and win a lost battle or anything like that, but to carry out part of my plan which I completely forgot about or carried out wrongly (like moving to wrong square, or forgetting to declare war). So, I hope that hasn’t written off my game, it’s something I don’t mind doing since it was genuinely forgetting something – but I’ll leave that to you guys to decide.

As soon as I loaded the game, I changed a couple of city production and changed the tech to Construction.

Turn 114: China surprised me by asking for a trade, they give Iron Working for Mathematics. I added Archery into the deal too ;). That’s good, because now we can build swordsman and build up the iron next to Akkad for a production bonus.

As my first Galley was produced, I explored China and unloaded an Axeman to explore deeper. They have some swords, axes, archers, but not much.

Turn 118: Whipped 2 x galley, aqueduct and axe for next turn’s catapults (thanks for tip pawelo :goodjob:)

Turn 119: Discovered Construction and changed whipped production to Catapults

Turn 125: My worker near SheepCity was captured by a Barbarian Archer

Turn 126: SheepCity was captured by the barbarians! :eek: I felt tempted to reload, but that would be one of the cases where it wouldn’t be fair ;), so I moved an axeman down to free it.

Spoiler Screenshot of Beijing when captured :
Civ4ScreenShot0028.JPG


Turn 129: Axeman wins battle, and SheepCity is returned to Babylonian rule. This has been a major setback to it’s development, but these things happen – I should have been more careful.

Turn 130: Calendar discovered, next is Currency

Turn 132: Destroyed a barbarian warrior near Akkad for a +1 XP bonus for one of my axes.

Turn 138: Now mobilised in the correct position – war declared on China, galleys move in to collect units, but far enough away to avoid their galley (which was in Beijing 10 or so turns ago) – economy plummets.

Turn 139: Galleys unload units on forest square that Putchuco advised earlier, and collect more units – no Chinese galley, hooray!

Turn 140: Plantation connected, so +1 :) in all cities. Catapults bombard, 2 axes secure road that Putchuco also advised (except that there is a second road, so this won’t work as intended), then, with 2 specially promoted Swords and a 2 City Raider Axe (the one that captured SheepCity) I capture Beijing :D ! No units lost! Economy now returns to a better state with the GL.

Spoiler Screenshot of Beijing when captured :
Civ4ScreenShot0029.JPG


So, that’s that – I think that China have been much easier than we thought – but we’ve still got at least 2, probably 3 cities to capture.

One thing I noticed is that China seemed to keep getting bad random events - lucky for us I guess.

I’ll have Currency in 3 turns, and that will further boost our economy. Can’t wait to see how you all did!
 

Attachments

Solver's Unofficial Patch

I think it is best we all update our Solver's Unofficial Patch version, so go here to download the version I acquired at 10:15am today - we can all be sure of having the same version this way.

Good thinking to update to the latest version, and yes, it has changed.
 
Ok now for my 30 turns :)

Spoiler :

My preparation for taking China started slowly. I planned to use 3 galleys with 5 axeman and a spear on first wave of attack followed by another round of 3-5 axes and 2 catapults.

To enable this tactic and get hands on our UB I have swiched to Construction.

To my horror when 2 rounds passed a barbarian archer appeared near our sheep city, I moved one of my axeman towards the city but I knew I was too late.

To my surprise warrior defeated archer and our sheep city was saved :).

At the same Time our China friend discovered alphabet which allowed me to trade matemathics for iron working and archery. Iron working revealed 2 iron sources which proved invaluable in future war with China.

325AD, Afer several more turns of wipping galleys, swordsman and catapults I was prepared to launch an attack on China.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


Just before attacking China I have traded em again for Alphabet giving up Monarchy. I knew I will break our opponent and trading with them would allow to quickly gain ground in terms of tech while still our opponent wouldn't benefit from this technology.

I have declared war and landed my forces.
After two rounds of bombardment of Bejing I have attacked with swordsman and axes and taken Chinas capital without any casualties.

Then moved my forces to North-West and attacked new capital of Shanghai.
In 540 AD I have captured third city on China continent and I as my forces were badly wounded and divided I have decieded to demand peace. I have forced China to give up CoL and Polytheism for peace :).

In 560 AD I have finished Moai Statues in Borsippa.

Thats about it, China if left with one size 1 city and ready to be finished :)


 

Attachments

well, here are my turns:

Spoiler :

i think i played much more tentatively than you guys. let buildings that were set finish, and started churning out cats, axes and galleys.

i explored a bit, met sury, washington and toku, open borders with first two.

i changed the tech from CoL to Construction. Then teched, CoL, Calendar and now currency.

Notable developments - lost Sippur to barb archer, got it back next turn. I have no idea how the archer spawned in the little hole between the mountains to the north (before the border pop).

we are pretty well prepared tho, 17 axes, 7 cats and 4 galleys..

here are some screens
Spoiler :

demographix0000.JPG

power0000.JPG

units0000.JPG

known_world0000.JPG




cheers,
asaegyn

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/10009/asaegyn_-_turn_140_-_600AD.CivBeyondSwordSave
 
Here's my version: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90414/Hammurabi_AD-0600.CivBeyondSwordSave

Spoiler :
Decided against invasion. I thought there was a risk of over-expansion with a relatively fragile economy so I did a bit of exploring, grew cities a bit, traded monarchy to Mao for alphabet, met Tok, gifted him meditation and he immedtiaely became pleased and opened borders. Picked up calendar for MoM (my current must-have wonder), currency for extra trade route, CoL and built courthouses, IW, currently researching MC. Got a GS which I blew on philosophy picking up Taoism in the process.
 
Having got my PC nuked during my last session, I just couldn’t wait to get back in the game.

Spoiler :


Here we are, with Jamesds save, to continue our advance in China. Let’s take a look on what we have and consider some short-term goals :
- Conquer Beijing
- Defend Beijing

To do so, we will need three galleys, 3 cats and a nice pack of axes/spears. So :
- Research Construction
- Whip cats with overflow in axes
- ATTACK!

Before hitting end of turn, I changed several things ( to fit the plan ). First of all, I changed CoL research to Construction. I whipped the first galley in Dur, switched Aqueduct to an axe in Akkad and switched Moai to Barracks in Borsippa. Also, I decided to go for a Great Scientist and put 2 citizens as Scientists in Akkad.

The galley embarked the scout and went to the Chinese territory. I met Qin next turn, who tried to get a deal with us :




Well, the answer was “NO WAY”. Never strengthen a future war target, especially if you don’t need what he proposes. On the same turn, our galley discovered Guangzhou north to Beijing ( defended by an axe and an archer ). The scouting party went inland, and provided us with some knowledge about the Chinese capital :




It was defended only by an archer and a sword. But the cultural defenses were at 40%, so the cats will be necessary. Shanghai, the last Chinese city, was defended by an archer and two warriors. This initial scouting made me think – IT’S TIME TO ACT. We have to change the invasion spot due to culture – the new one is on the western shore of a plain hill, three tiles south of Beijing.

In our country things went pretty well. The sheep got connected in Sippar, Barracks was done in Borsippa, and everyone was joyfully producing axes ( and one spear ). Babylon got two Scientists – it got pretty decent size ( 8 ) so I decided to boost the research and generate another GS. Our spies provided us with some info about Qin – he went for economy rather then military. Great news for us.

Another galley was up in Dur – we started the third one asap. Some more axes appeared here and there. Sippar built the monument. My karma followed me pretty well since my first turn, so I wasn’t at all surprised when :




Well, nothing to be done, especially when you are running at 0 gold. On the same turn, Confucianism was FIDL. It makes me think that, after we have conquered China, we should grab a religion ( Christ / Tao / Islam ? ).

When we finally get Construction, everything speeded up a bit. Research went on Currency ( to amplify the Great Lighthouse effect ), and two cities went for cats ( Dur, which has just chopped the last galley, and Babylon ). On the following turn, both cats were whipped. Babylon went back on a spear, while Dur started the Garden ( for happiness and health ). We met Suryavarman of Khmer, with whom we traded Monarchy for Alphabet. Two turns later, while we reached the end of the Chinese island ( another island… sigh ), our scout met Toku.

While we were pretty busy in our invasion preparations, I overlooked badly a pretty big threat near Sippur. A lone wandering Archer killed our worker on the hill next to the city, and was well placed to attack the warrior inside. An axe has been dispatched asap, but it was too late. Sippur got captured and lost its monument. We still conquered it back on the next turn, still we had to restart the monument  ( poor move of mine ).

In the meantime, a third Cat has been whipped in Akkad, and we were almost ready to go. Here is the situation in the turn before the war :



Our first wave is onboard : three cats, two axes and a spear. Six more axes wait for the second wave. We cancel open borders with Qin and attack in 300AD. Here is the China on the first turn of the war :



I upgraded the troops near Beijing giving CR promotions to the axes, medic to the spear and 2 combat and one Barrage to the cats. While the cats lowered Beijing defenses to 16%, the reinforcements were already in route :




Oh yeah, I almost forgot, the Temple of Salomon ( Jewish shrine ) was BIDL. Now, get back to the real stuff.

In 350AD, when Beijing’s defenses went down to 0, it was time to attack. This turn Qin whipped a sword in some vain try to avoid what couldn’t be avoided. Our first axe took the Chinese axe at 66%. The second one took the sword at 77%. I decided also to suicide a cat to get some collateral damage and attacked with a spear to soften some more. At the end of the turn, Beijing was defended by a 0,8 Archer and 1,4 sword.

Next turn, all the brand new six axes were ready to fight. First axe took the archer at 98%. Beijing was captured by a CR 2 axe ( the same one which got Sippar back ) at 99,9 %.




With the nice war tribute ( 138 gold ), I set the research @ 100%. Two cats and undamaged axes went after Guangzhou.

In other fields of activity, non-wars I mean, Confu was FIDL ( turned out to be Toku ) and Pyramids were BIDL. We got our first Great Scientist in Babylon. He immediately built the Academy in capital, boosting pretty well our overall research.

On the next few turns, some troop movements were done in the chinese territory, in order to defend Beijing and attack Guangzhou. An axe took out a spear, which wandered next to Beijing ( sole attack formation that tried to come close to their former capital. In 450AD, attack has been ordered on Guangzhou ( two cats, four axes ). Barrage cat suicided in first turn, causing some nice collateral dammage. Having a nice streak of luck, three axes took an Archer ( 80% prob ) and two axes ( 71 and 99,9% ) capturing the city in the same turn :



On the same turn, a monument was whipped in Sippar and Nippur got the lighthouse.

Code of Laws discovered in 475AD. I choose Philosophy, so that we can get Taoism and run some religion. Dur gets its garden and starts a library. Sippar goes for an axe ( it’s still undefended – I don’t want to lose it twice ! ). Some happy civ ( not ours ) gets Hanging Gardens ( It ought to be ours! ).

On the chinese front, an axe took a spear near Beijing, while troops march on Shanghai. Beijing finished the revolt and we start to chop the monument. Chinese spy caught in Beijing – wonder why they send spies instead of sending troops ??? Christianity FIDL.

Some axes terminate in the homeland ( we start a market in Babylon, granary in Sippar and garden in Akkad ) – as I’m not sure about the ourcome of the Shanghai’s battle ( city on the hill… ), we get as much troops as we can. Chinese pump swords in Shanghai ( WHY? Are they defensive units???? ), while we get the defenses down to 0%.

Toku drops by in 550AD, asking for Monarchy ( no way buddy ). I start a courthouse in Nippur ( axe done ), while Beijing finishes the monument ( chopped ) and starts a courthouse.

Surya comes on the next turn to ask for open borders ( no problemo ). While we are on it, I get corn for clam to enhancen our friendship ( I think that our next objective is likely to be Toku ).

Shanghai is heavily defended in 575AD ( an archer, an axe and three swords, fortified and on a hill ). We have a cat and 6 axes ( plus 2 nearby ). I decide to take my chance – Shanghai pumps troops, while our reinforcements are not as fast. Also, war weariness starts to rise… So, I order the attack. Every axe on field attacks, and we suffer severe damages ( two axes lost, two heavily wounded ). Defensive forces at the end of the turn : Sword @ 3,1 strength and Axe @ 2,3. But hey, we got a great general in Borsippa ( Military Academy? )

On our last turn, we have three full axes available to attack. I decide to suicide our last cat – there are no more chinese cities and we have no war to come. Shanghai gets nice collateral damage leaving the axe @2,8 ( it almost recovered since the last turn ) and the sword @ 3,1. Two axes attack and finish the troops at more than 98% prob. And here we are :




Chinese are out of the game, on the last turn of this turnset. How handy!
Time to present our actual empire :



Babylon is on 2 scientists. Yes, it starves a bit… Akkad & Nippur are ok, Akkad going on a scientist of its own. Some land improvements appeared here and there.



Dur is working on a Library ( finish on the next turn ) and Borsippa has almost finished Moai Statues. We should go for the IW soon – some useless jungle to be cleared in the north.



Let me present you Sippar, heavily attacked ( once even lost… ) babylonian outpost. It is almost working the deer tile ( had to retreat the worker because of barbs ).
And now, our Chinese acquisitions :



Monument done in Beijing, Courthouse due in next turn ( chopped ), monument on its way in Guangzhou. Shanghai still revolting. And to the north, we have :



Some potential cottaging. A nice spot would be in the eastern coast, where all the resources are ( rice, silk & gems ). Still, nice space to expand. Toku is very close – on the island just north of this map.
As for the next plans :
- Found Tao and spread it in our cities for happiness
- Get IW and clear jungles
- Get our economy up ( courthouses )
- Get Civil Service for Bureaucracy
- Expand – two more cities to come on the main island, start colonizing former chinese territory ( someone wants to do some dotmapping? )

 
Thanks for getting your saves in all, we've got some excellent discussion coming up!! pawelo, you've written an epic :goodjob: - but where's the save? ;)
 
Sorry for some broken pictures, I had a helluva bad streak of luck with imageshack this evening.
EDIT : Fixed :)

Spoiler :


I'm happy to see that I wasn't the only one to lose Sippar :lol:



Let's wait for the remaining two games and start our 'strategizing' and debate.
:cheers:
 
Sorry for coming in late, busy days for me, trying to sell the car and the house...


Here's my next 30 turns based on Jamesds' last save game:

Spoiler :

I tried to go all out and wage war, about time... :D

Changed research to Construction for the Catapults.
Put Axemen in almost all queues, waiting for Cats next.

James, I liked that you left the promotions on your Axemen untouched,
very professional. I usually get carried away and do them right away.

Next, let's see what our Chinese neighbor has researched to far.
And yes, we can trade some Tech, nice.
(I usually prefer to play without tech trading, I think the human player
gains an enormous advantage with the 'tech-whoring'. I tried and liked
the new option 'No Tech Brokering' in BtS, but once I got used to not
trading Tech I stayed that way... But I'm digressing... )

I get Archery, Polytheism, IW (forgot what I traded for, but I don't think it matters much...).
I know this is high-risk, if we can't break him, we'll be back-doored with those trades.

And while we're at it closing in on our neighbor, let's see what's there for the taking (one Scout and a Galley taking pictures...)
Spoiler :
CivFan_Babylon_Putchuco_12.jpg


150 AD: Construction (Axemen built, switching to build a few Cats)

I built 2 Galleys in FloodPlains, one In ClamFish and one in Babylon.

400 AD: Currency; this gives a long-needed break economically.

425AD, we're going in for a 'refill': Monotheism, Archery for Construction:
(he doesn't want to let go of MC, bummer)
Spoiler :
CivFan_Babylon_Putchuco_11.jpg


Well, if you think THIS was Highway-Robbery, wait till you see the next move...
Spoiler :
CivFan_Babylon_Putchuco_10.jpg


Same year, we declare war. I know, that's true back-stabbing... ;)
Starting from the water tile one north of that desert, moving 1 SE of Babylon,
unloading the forces to the forest next to Babylon in one turn.
Spoiler :
CivFan_Babylon_Putchuco_09.jpg



450AD: Bombing Beijing and taking the defenses down to 16%.
Spoiler :
CivFan_Babylon_Putchuco_08.jpg



500AD: Beijing joins the Babylonian empire... :p
Spoiler :
CivFan_Babylon_Putchuco_07.jpg


Got one Galley with reinforcements on the way, some are healing in Beijing,
while the third batallion ;) is already marching on towards Guangzhou.

560AD: The two defenders in Guangzhou give in fairly quickly...
Spoiler :
CivFan_Babylon_Putchuco_06.jpg


View of the known universe.
First time I spotted the blue tiles in the East, another neighbor to meet.
Spoiler :
CivFan_Babylon_Putchuco_05.jpg


Info Screen:
Spoiler :
CivFan_Babylon_Putchuco_04.jpg


The Great Lighthouse found its way into Babylonian hands:
Spoiler :
CivFan_Babylon_Putchuco_03.jpg


Overview of the forces left, I guess I lost 1 Catapult, one Axeman and one Galley total.
Spoiler :
CivFan_Babylon_Putchuco_02.jpg


600AD, turn 140: Discover Calendar, CoL next, done in 4 turns.
Forces marching towards Shanghai.
Beijing recovered nicely and is building a Monument.
Spoiler :
CivFan_Babylon_Putchuco_01.jpg


 

Attachments

Wow, some great games here!

Amazing stories and impressive results, even when not going to war!

I'm learning quite a bit here, thx all for the opportunity.

Always looking forward to the next round.
 
This has been an excellent round, I can imagine us taking the whole week to discuss it ;)! I'll need to PM frob again, I think he's been busy lately. Here's the unfinished stats, no highlighting and not all averages done yet, will finish it after last game is in.

Round 4 Statistics
 
This has been an excellent round, I can imagine us taking the whole week to discuss it ;)! I'll need to PM frob again, I think he's been busy lately. Here's the unfinished stats, no highlighting and not all averages done yet, will finish it after last game is in.

Round 4 Statistics

Sorry for my beakers stat - I have pushed it to 100% thanks to the China war gold. It's rather 82 beakers/turn, on break even setting ;) That's why my deficit shows -54 gold/turn too :blush:.

I'll wait for frob's game before starting our discussion. From here, we have a great variety of playing styles - given the same starting point and a short number of turns it's amazing to see :)

:goodjob: everyone!
 
Sorry for my beakers stat - I have pushed it to 100% thanks to the China war gold. It's rather 82 beakers/turn, on break even setting ;) That's why my deficit shows -54 gold/turn too :blush:.

I'll wait for frob's game before starting our discussion. From here, we have a great variety of playing styles - given the same starting point and a short number of turns it's amazing to see :)

:goodjob: everyone!

Uuups I forgot to tune my beakers as well :)
 
don't worry about beakers, I could have adjusted it myself, but that's how you had it in your games. I actually forgot to put mine to 100% and get Currency next turn for a big economy boost.

EDIT:

Also, seeing the variety of games (going in the war and peace variety) I am wondering whether if two games were elected, we could continue them both (everyone chooses a game to continue with) and see how they develop. I'd love to see how pigswill's peaceful development goes, but I also want to compare it to a war game to see whether the China war was worth it.

Any thoughts on that, anyone? Any critical thoughts? Would it work?
 
don't worry about beakers, I could have adjusted it myself, but that's how you had it in your games. I actually forgot to put mine to 100% and get Currency next turn for a big economy boost.

I would think it makes it easier to compare if we really adjust our research
when posting. How about to zero money loss, or the setting with the lowest loss per turn below that?

I'm having a real hard time comparing the various games,
especially now that we have two 'alternate' games: one with war, one in peace.


Also, seeing the variety of games (going in the war and peace variety) I am wondering whether if two games were elected, we could continue them both (everyone chooses a game to continue with) and see how they develop. I'd love to see how pigswill's peaceful development goes, but I also want to compare it to a war game to see whether the China war was worth it.

Any thoughts on that, anyone? Any critical thoughts? Would it work?

That's what triggered my initial desire to continue my own game in parallel,
and then later another alternate game. But I think it confused the heck
out of me and everybody else.

I'd love to run alternate games, but how could we do it?

Should we split right here into:
a) The China Wars of 475AD
b) Times of Peace at 600AD

And everybody can play one or both sides...

Maybe we do this until we get to the next possible split (next war?),
and then decide which time line was more effective until then and close the other,
while opening a new parallel universe.
 
Yeah, we'll wait for the thoughts from others here before deciding. It is a rather radical idea, but I feel we need it here more than we have before (but if you confused the heck out of yourself Putchuco, did you find it worth it? :lol:). At least this time we are in quite different situations, so it won't be like you are playing almost the same game.

As for the beakers, I think I shall update that and readjust it when frob's game comes in - I'll also be adding Contacts (inc. relations) and maybe some misc. things.

As for the peace option, I almost feel it would have taken off nicely from frob's game, since he had the GL, rather than from my game which I geared for war. Anyhow, we'll give frob today to get his game in. Discussion formally begins tomorrow :).
 
Here's an alternate time line I couldn't resist playing out ... ;)

Spoiler :

Continued my very first game, where I fell in love with Stonehenge... :lol:

I couldn't avoid considering things I learned from all of you here
and the various game posts, so some of it might've found its way into this game.

Too make it easier on my own head... ;)
... I ended up doing virtually the same war against China.
Spoiler :
SG_Putchuco_140_05.jpg


But as you can see I was a little behind here,
simply because I had focused on three other things:
- Stonehenge (built during the first 40 turns)
- Oracle (built on turn 110 - 125BC)
- scouting the world as much as possible
Spoiler :
SG_Putchuco_140_03.jpg


Spoiler :
SG_Putchuco_140_01.jpg


Spoiler :
SG_Putchuco_140_04.jpg


I did not whip much in this game, but tried to maximize the cities as much as possible,
my usual game style. At first that didn't help me much, as my game was lagging.
I guess I recovered from it. I'm sure it would be even more drastically
different if I were to play it again, but who's game wouldn't.
Spoiler :
SG_Putchuco_140_02.jpg


Just an FYI; I had fun incorporating some play style I picked up here,
and trying to improve my own start with it.

So, maybe this is just an example where we can look at alternate play styles
and where they lead.

My personal opinion on our initial games:
- I'm fairly certain we should've tried harder to get an early wonder
- we should've scouted more, rounding the planet gets a +1 navigation;
and meeting more neighbors gives a slight advantage in researching known techs.

Just my 2 cents...
 
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