A Game of Education

ehrie said:

Keep it coming. I really like the detailed explinations too.

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Challenge question: Given what you know so far, which do you expect to be the important Ancient, Classical, and Medieval technologies? Show your work.

VoiceOfUnreason said:

Challenge question: Given what you know so far, which do you expect to be the important Ancient, Classical, and Medieval technologies? Show your work.

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Well for me I've always like to go for the CoL slingshot. It lets me skip the early religions and get those awesome Courthouses nice and early. But who knows where we will go. I'm fighting every one of my normal playstyles this game.

ehrie said:

But who knows where we will go.

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Try harder.

I say no need to workboat since you have an irrigated corn. Settling in place is ok in the short run, but it's 9 squares of water and no fresh water. That's not a big deal since you're expansive, but mehmed can grow a nice capital, so there's some synergy problems.

So suggestions are settling in place (plains hill, silver, fish, so good commerce and early production), 1E (lose 1 turn, no plains hill).
I'd consider N,NE (lose 1 turn, river access, fresh water, more land, no plains hill), and you can settle the silver/fish later. You can chop everything if you really want with that much health.

Silver's usually on the top/bottom of the map, so I think it should be easy to claim later. Depends on your strategy, unfortunately there's not much information.

I would go worker/worker/settler or worker/grow on corn (most efficient in the game early on)/chop whip settler. worker/worker for axe rushing, pottery after bronze working.

vicawoo said:

I say no need to workboat since you have an irrigated corn.

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This is Prince level though, and we'll have Silver online. That means quite a high happiness cap for the early game, so you'll want to grow as fast as possible. Also working fish/corn/silver has some great production potential for settlers and workers without the need for whipping. Depending on the map and neighbours and other conditions I might choose to not even switch to Slavery, as a slave revolt is a pretty bad event and switching out of Slavery if you have too many of them is another turn lost.

If you are going to settle in place, which I would then consider aiming for Metal Working in the medium term to get Collossus. That will make those 9 water tiles very useful in the early to middle game. I don't normally like to build the Moari Statues in my capital (since you only get 2 National Wonders)but here is a good case when it would help turn the city into a research and hammer powerhouse.

Mehmet is Expansive and has the Hamman, and this site is on the coast so you get a harbour (for a huge amount of health) and all those lovely trade routes. That strongly points to building large cities early and for that you need Hereditary Rule to give the happiness to match the health you'll have, so Monarchy should be a priority tech.

That would be my intermediate development plan, Collossus and Monarchy. A longer term plan would depend on neighbours and whether Janissaries are needed en masse or just in normal quantities

First thing I did was move the warrior one SE, revealing nothing of importance, expect for a goodie hut. I then settled in the original spot and began work on a Worker. Settling there would turn out to be a really good decision as you'll see.



For my first tech I took basically the majority opinion and started on Fishing.



The warrior popped some gold, always welcome and then set out northwest of the capital in search of our first victim. After I finished Fishing I started on Mining, and two turns after Fishing finished I started on a Work Boat and sent the Worker to hook up the corn 1N of Istanbul. Just before Mining finished I happened upon my nearest neighbor, about 15 tiles east of Istanbul. It's good ole FDR.



In the picture above you can see the western edge of Washington. It looks to be a coastal city as well. The same turn I met FDR, the first religion popped, Christianity. I find Isabella usually takes that. Right after meeting FDR, Mining finished.



Contining along the suggested path, and now seeing I have a close neighbor I went for Bronze Working next. I sent my warrior around the edge and happened upon a goodie hut that FDR didn't grab and it popped me another warrior. I sent one Warrior to go explore more North, hoping to find more civs. I used the other warrior to look around FDR's land to see if I could spot a Worker I could snag, but to no avail. A couple barb animals did find the warrior to give him his first promotion though. With BW about half way done my worker hooked up our first resource.



The Work Boat was completed a couple turns later and sent to bring home the fishes. Next in the build line a Settler was started. Our Worker was then sent to hooked up the Silver and did so with 8 turns left in BW. Hooking it up dropped that to 4. Gotta love that. Once BW was finished we got a nice surprise and a little trouble. The nice surprise:



Bronze and Silver in the BFC. Nice and nice. The capital is looking to be a production and commerce city to me, what do you all think. I stopped right after BW finished, and changed civics to slavery. My thinking there is quickly whipping a warrior out to escort the settler. For my next tech I chose AH, to reveal horsies, as you'll see in this floating camera shot, FDR also has Bronze.



So here we are then.

Where do we put the next Settler: I'm not really sure to be honest. Tundra to the south and the patch of desert to the North seem to rule out any really close cities. Suggestions welcome.

Tech: Stick with AH? or switch along a different path. Here is where I usually switch off to get the Oracle and hit up Code of Laws. I doubt that we can do that and kill FDR though. Buddism popped 2 turns before I got AH, so with that coming so late I'm inclined to think we don't have a ton of religous civs.

FDR: I think it's obvious he has to die soon. Hook up the second city and once I get bronze going about how many Axeman will do the job do you all think? The barbs will be along soon especially if we are the only two on this landmass, so I'll need a homeguard too.

Decisions Decisions. I await the sagely advice. Attached is the save file.

General comment: I think you slow yourself down by prioritizing connecting resources over improving tiles. How many turns late was the silver mine because you decided to build roads? What did that cost you in hammers and commerce?

Lol, you remind me of myself. I used to run for the goody huts and forget to scout around my capital. You really need a unit that will scout a bit and discover if there are more resources and what the surrounding area looks like in general. You do have marble nearby so you could have looked south of it to see if you can put a city to grab it and make the Oracle cheaper.

Question: why did you switch to Slavery? It's bad; just try to think why.

About FDR, in my opinion he's too far to die right now. If you grab Ivory before he does (4th or 5th city perhaps) he's in for a beating anyway. If you do settle the second city towards him it might be possible, but that would mean giving up the Oracle for sure. Both are options, as is expanding without building the Oracle (to which you might indeed be beaten).

Research is going to depend on what you choose (war, expantion, wonders). See what you like and let's see what techs you'll need.

carl corey said:

Lol, you remind me of myself. I used to run for the goody huts and forget to scout around my capital. You really need a unit that will scout a bit and discover if there are more resources and what the surrounding area looks like in general. You do have marble nearby so you could have looked south of it to see if you can put a city to grab it and make the Oracle cheaper.

Question: why did you switch to Slavery? It's bad; just try to think why.

About FDR, in my opinion he's too far to die right now. If you grab Ivory before he does (4th or 5th city perhaps) he's in for a beating anyway. If you do settle the second city towards him it might be possible, but that would mean giving up the Oracle for sure. Both are options, as is expanding without building the Oracle (to which you might indeed be beaten).

Research is going to depend on what you choose (war, expantion, wonders). See what you like and let's see what techs you'll need.

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I don't really see why. I was going to do it eventually anyways. Another thing is with all the extra food that is being produced in Istanbul I planned on whipping the Settler when it was close to completion and using the overrun to get a warrior for an escort.

You're probably right about Washington. I think the tech path should be towards expansion right now. If I can expand east fast enough I can choke off his westward expansion, seeing as he only has that small little pennisula to the east. My other warrior is heading over to South of where the Marble is to see if there is anything fun there for a 2nd site. I usually like to put my 2nd city as close as possible without much overlap to keep running 100% science as long as possible. Ofcourse so far I don't really see opitmal sites right now. I'll post another screenie before settling the 2nd city of what's in the fog due east of the capital. I was initially going to go there until I found FDR and decided to see what he had or if he had a worker I could snag.

VoiceOfUnreason said:

General comment: I think you slow yourself down by prioritizing connecting resources over improving tiles. How many turns late was the silver mine because you decided to build roads? What did that cost you in hammers and commerce?

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Now there's something I never considered, but I totally see your point. I always just have done that to also get the resources other benefit, but I do see what you mean in that at this point in the game they aren't really needed. The road on the farm tile was going to have to go on there anyways as I will need roads to hook up the bronze, but that's a nice adjustment I can make is to lay off roads until the resource's other benefit is needed, thanks. A lot of old habits of original Civ on need to be broken, .

About Slavery: the cost isn't really a problem since you're Organized so even with 2 more cities you won't pay much civic maintenance. But why would you whip when you have good tiles to work? There's no hurry to get your settler out since you have copper in your capital so you can produce axemen for barb defense when you link it. You have to ask yourself if the bonus given by a few turns of having another city is worth sacrificing the silver or copper tile, or both, just to whip. I'll take a look at your save later to see what your happiness cap is and how it would translate into tiles worked; anyway, I think it's best to let it grow in between settler/worker builds until it reaches the happiness cap. By that time you could have a library and run scientists if you have too much food. Anyway, that's my opinion, I hope others will come and give theirs.

Also, in BtS there's a chance (not sure what about the exact odds) that a city with 4+ population, while in slavery, will go into a slave revolt. That's -2 population, 1 unhappy citizen for a duration equivalent to the whip, and 1 turn of revolt for the city. If it does happen, and more than once, will you decide to switch civics again? You're gonna lose another turn, as you already lost one when you switched into slavery, unless you can change another civic in the process, for example adopting Hereditary Rule.

If you're gonna expand I think you can safely tech to Hunting then Animal Husbandry. The first settler will be out before revealing Horses anyway, and you'll need hunting at least for those elephants up north. Sailing & Masonry are interesting if you want to grab the Great Lighthouse. If you do decide to try for a Oracle -> Metal Casting shot then you'll need Pottery and can drop Masonry. By the way, Sailing also lets you connect cities through coast and rivers in BtS.

ehrie said:

I don't really see why. I was going to do it eventually anyways.

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It's like connecting the resources: "that which can wait, MUST wait".

Thanks for starting this discussion ehrie. Lot's of interesting advice and tactics I've never considered.

Jasonc said:

Thanks for starting this discussion ehrie. Lot's of interesting advice and tactics I've never considered.

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Thanks! Hopefully as I get a few more turns in more people will join the fun.

I'm sorry if it has already been mentioned, but the main reason why you want to avoid using Slavery unless you really need it, is that it creates a chance for your capital to suffer from a slave rebellion, which is a real empire killer early game.

I hope that we can revive this thread. I play at Prince on standard size worlds. The advice given so far is at just the right level for my skill.

I loaded the game and started the same way: settle in place, research fishing, build a worker, etc. The goody huts gave me money, a scout, and experience, so I was able to explore more of our (rather dry) continent than you did. I saved at 3600BC when I meet FDR, and read the rest of this thread.

I followed the good advice you were given. Before reading Voice of Unreason's post, I would have built a road on the corn tile as you did, but instead I immediately sent the worker to mine the silver. After the mine was completed, I did build the road from the mine to Istanbul. (I hadn't finished Bronze Working, so I didn't know about the copper yet). How much more research this way? It is hard to compare because the RNG gave me "dead end results delay current research" -- I lost 20 flasks (no alternative
was given; maybe because I had so little gold).

The scout went South around Washington and popped a hut on FDR's border. A map -- what a disappointment! In light of Carl Corey's posts, I sent the warrior back to explore thoroughly the area near Istanbul.

Also, I did not switch to Slavery; I built a warrior and started a Barracks until
Istanbul gained a fourth population. I stopped and saved at 3025BC, just as you did.

It is time to consider the options. Where to build the second and third cities? I recommend City 2 1S of the cows, and City 3 1SE of the Southern Elephant. The main purpose is to give us access to the desirable Northern part of this continent. In other words, to block FDR and to prevent him from blocking us. My first thought is to build a settler at population 4, but maybe it is better to wait until population 5, the happiness cap.

Research? I suggest Hunting, then Animal Husbandry. I don't have a long range, or even a mid range research plan.