Cultural Deity before 1000AD is possible

But you forget that you 1) have to get parthenon to lose it (also parth will not give much at that stage anyway anymore, max +1 gp that can be easily gotten over with +1/farm)
Click to expand...
Wrong - my goal is to have Parthenon, and it would give me a couple of GA. Plus I have all farms I can, 1 more just would not be there.
2) you can also rip AI cash and then if you have it in time can switch to suffrage to get rushing option
Click to expand...
I prefer pop-rushing. Unlike cash-rushing, it does take production boni in account.
3) AI might get SoL / +2 culture for artists / Eiffel tower or broadcast towers / flight for extra traderoute.
Click to expand...
Good point. However, unlikely, besides Sistine/HG/SoL to be obtained before my winning finish (same as Biology).

GP cost increase would be a heavy blow too.
 
Lexad said:
Wrong - my goal is to have Parthenon, and it would give me a couple of GA. Plus I have all farms I can, 1 more just would not be there.

I prefer pop-rushing. Unlike cash-rushing, it does take production boni in account.

Good point. However, unlikely, besides Sistine/HG/SoL to be obtained before my winning finish (same as Biology).

GP cost increase would be a heavy blow too.
Click to expand...

1)I mean when you could even get PA parth wont give many GAs anymore. As mentioned most likely it would be near 1200 anyway on quick. So not much turns to lose for parthenon.
2)Besides point of cashrushing is not to do on YOUR money but to say to AI: give me all your free cash + very many times give me X money per turn to get money like 500gold per turn while running 100% culture. And with that gold you can rush as its FREE and who cares about production boni then. Might even make Pyramids worth building as then you'd research +3 beakers per artist/scientist faster and would get suffrage just after PA.
3) With philo leader+pacifism you get 9gpp per artist and with parthenon you get 10.5gpp per artist. Now you have lets say 5 farms producing food for those thats +2.5 specialists which is lessened somewhat due the fact that you might not have enough pop to switch. Lets say youd get 1.5 specialists more which would give you 13.5gpp and difference from parth means you have to run 10 specialists to overcome +food bonus for farms. I cant see how parthenon would be so good that you could lose more than 1 GA in some situations.

I'd check that option just to take last turn techs for score anyway... But due the fact that Incas are superior on non quick and that combined with PA times on nonquick go way more up. Of course this thread was about going under 1kAd and its mostly possible on quick or at all

Also when there is 1 aggressive AI and it gets beaten by neighbour first then second neighbour can get land easier and could theoretically tech faster after that leading to faster scores. I'll have to check my games when useful PA things popped. But I wont take it for granted that you couldnt shave at least 1 round out with PA.

-Dracandross
 
What is the average date of you getting a PA?
 
Lexad said:
What is the average date of you getting a PA?
Click to expand...

Haven't tested it enough on quick but as said it is too late if you go under 1k anyway for this gauntlet running I'm sure you will get in better half with PA. 1200 maybe earlier. Leading on update was 1235.

-Dracandross
 
1200 looks too late, IMO. You should finish by then or shortly after. I always have it on but I doubt I would ever use it if it screws up my GA generation.
 
I think when you wrote the title "...before 1000AD is possible", you really meant 10xxAD is possible. So, refocusing this discussion on the goal of 1085 AD (turn 120). Let's start with some assumptions...

Vanilla Civ
Saladin
Small size
Quick speed
Inland Sea
Low Seas
4 opponents (or five? for better trading -- might be too crowded then -- but you might get cities to flip)

Start on a Plains/hill or something better like:
Sugar, elephant, marble/hill, stone/hill, etc.

2 commerce resources and some food.

Marble nearby for Parthenon (required).

Build 4 -5 cities and flip 1 or 2.

To be continued...
 
I figured we'd discuss my assumptions before moving on, but here are some more:

For the perfect game, 4 religions are best. Since research goes faster on Small size, I think we can found the 3 copper religions and then just hope for a 4th.

With the Parthenon in the capitol, it might get by with only 4 cathedrals and NO hermitage to go legendary without any GA's, maybe 1 bomb. This frees up Herm for the 2nd cottaged city. With 3 or 4 cathedrals there also it will need only a couple GA bombs. On 2nd thought, that's probably no good. I was thinking of 1200 AD finishes. The Herm will be needed in the captiol to finish in 1085.

Two cities with cathedrals takes a lot of pressure off the GP farms, we won't need 15 (which would be very hard by 1085 AD). I'm thinking we'd bomb 0 - 4 - 8. With the free music GA, that's only 11 more. In that case, we might be able to drop the Philo trait!!! and play Mansa.

thoughts anyone...
 
This is kind of what I was thinking when I played this gauntlet a bit last month, but with a concentration on more religion. This was with Warlords Inca though, and I realize you guys want to do vanilla. I could never get the components of the right map together (close easy AI to attack, enough gold/food, found all easy religions, 5-6 early cities, early AI currency to keep research at 100%, etc).

Not having philo trait does hurt, but industrious is mini philo anyway. Problem is it is difficult to run the artists and produce temples for the 2nd city as well.

I think using somewhat free (early stonehenge/oracle) Priests for the 2 extra religions and putting hermitage in 2nd city is a workable idea, but inland sea is sparse with non FP heavy food locations. So artist generation suffers longterm. I'll try to get another set of maps to give this a run soon and try to put some proof in the pudding.
 
WastinTime said:
In that case, we might be able to drop the Philo trait!!! and play Mansa.

thoughts anyone...
Click to expand...

Mansa doesn't start with Mysticism, so it would be much tougher to found Buddism.

I have found you can greatly increase chances of founding Confu and Tao by not trading either PH/medit or writing/CoL to AI that have the other and holding back alpha. Once you found budda/confu they lose interest in medit/CoL, which means they can't pop Tao with their GS. Using this strategy I have founded Tao after 0AD by reseaching Phil immediately before Lib.

I also think your strategy of overlapping some of the capital's cottage tiles with your second city so it can work them early is ideal - extra early commerce and lowest possible maintenance.
 
WastinTime said:
I figured we'd discuss my assumptions before moving on, but here are some more:...
Click to expand...

I can put up with the 10xx thing. I am not 100% sure Parthenon is required. But we are talking about the perfect game, aren't we? Then it probably features Parthenon. I completely agree with the rest of the assumptions of your first post.

Now this second post... Hermitage has to be in the capital, as you have concluded yourself. It is there were it is more useful.

If you only want 11 GP then you could drop Philo. But I think that's a mistake. There's no better trait than Philo for Culture. I would stick to Eliz or Saladin.

Regarding number of religions, 3 or 4 are best. Not sure which yet. Maybe the compromise is not to spread the 4rth one to more than 2 cities...

I would like to hear your ideas about city settling order. The policy I follow is "don't follow a rigid rule, just addapt to the map". Lately I am starting to prioritize NE building over anything else, so I try to use the second city for GPFarm.

Keep up the good job!
 
jesusin - suggest you try my map from the gauntlet as practice to see what city placement works best - all possibilities are available on it, and you won't blow a great legal map experimenting - i've given a couple thoughts below

Spoiler :
you can build your 2nd city on the marble or PH west of the capital and build oracle there for CS slingshot (if you beeline CoL after mining) and parthenon in the capital after it builds a third settler for the GP Farm. The GP farm either goes to the 3F location nw of capital (9 artists) or the 1F+copper on PH location SW (6 artists). you would obviously want the 3F location but then there is high risk you will lose the copper sight to another civ. You could however built as close as possible and expand borders with first GA, but I've not tried that yet.

Or you could build the GP farm 2nd and copper city 3rd, but then you lose Oracle and maybe parth. NE will be ok though since the marble will be in the cap's borders once you have library there and lit.

my best potential result so far was with the initial strategy above - i had 3 cathedrals before lib in 220AD, and NE up in the copper city and great culture numbers, but immediately after I went to FS Bismark dow'd. bummer. haven't tried it again since I'm working on the current dom minor/major.
 
FiveAces said:
jesusin - suggest you try my map from the gauntlet as practice to see what city placement works best ]
Click to expand...

I am trying it right now, 1000BC, please be patient, I am a slow player.


Spoiler :
Regarding your best potential game, why don't you reload a few turns before the DoW?
In my first try (I imagine there will be several) I have ignored Parthenon and Oracle. There is a very straight window of opportunity for CS slingshot, but I think it is not right to reload knowing which date they will reach Oracle. My exploration of the North has been very defficient, though, I haven't found that 3food site.
 
If your 2nd city is just going to build a settler immediately, then it doesn't really matter whether you plant the NE city before or after the other city. I also adapt to the map. Sometimes you need to grab a prime location. Sometimes you want to work a gold hill. Maybe keep maintenance low with a close 1st city. Adapting is best.
 
Well, I have played FiveAces map. 1220AD. No wonders, 3 religions founded, 2 spread, 6 cities, 6 cathedrals, 17 GPs (1 from Music), bombs 2-6-7. Liberalism and 100% culture in 170AD. NE built and pacifism and religion adopted and everybody Pleased in 650BC (that's why so many GP). 7-7-5-4 artists hired in the GPfarms (there's no time to grow them further).

The capital is great, 1food, 3FP, 2gold. But I don't like the rest of the map, only 2 food resources per city, difficult settling in some zones. Popping agriculture from the first GH is a great great advantage for Saladin. Knowing that it's going to be popped is a greater advantage, since you go worker first. I popped BW too, which helped whip the granaries.



I have learnt that concentrating on early NE pays back. The sooner your GPfarm is set up the better.

I don't think that in this short time more than 7 cathedrals should be built. Of course you can build more, but that would mean unhiring artists. 6 or 7 looks like the optimum.

If I can get the Parthenon while not delaying my GPfarm nor my initial settler spamming then I will have a much better result.

EDIT: WastinTime, I had 14GP (including the one from Music) in 1000AD, without any kind of starvation yet.
EDIT2: FiveAces, I used the copper city as a (so-so) cottage city, not as a GPfarm.
 

Attachments

I have continued my endless efforts. Following WastinTime advise, I am playing small maps now, with Saladin.

I have played 2 games so far, both won in 1345AD.

The fist one was fairly standard play, 5 cities, 3 religions (poly and tao founded), no first to Music, no Parthenon, no TajMajal by 1 turn, NE 55BC, 6-5-5 artists GPfarms (quite poor), 21 cottages, 6 cathedrals, 650-500-150cpt at the end, early PP, 15GP, 1 of them a GS.

The second game is the true reason I am writing this post. Lost 1 turn to climb to a PH before founding a so-so capital, with 2 cows, marble and wine. Decided to settle my GPfarm in the site with the most food. That meant that there was no place for a cottage city anywhere. So no cottage city and no second cathedral for any religion. 4 cities, 2 religions (one more too late), wasted a GS in Philo but failed to found tao by 1 turn, built Parthenon, thus delaying my 3rd and 4th cities, only 2 cathedrals (!), NE in the BC, I was doing no less than 134GPPpt by 1AD.
My techpath was somewhat erratic, no first to Music, no first to Liberalim, no PP, no Economy, end of research in 620AD (so late), when I addopt Merc+Free Speech.
1000AD stats: 500-100-100cpt, 325GPPpt, 8 cottages.
My GP production was so good at the end that I even managed to pop 2 GP on the same turn! (see screenshot).
My cities, without Mercantilism, were able to sustain 8-7-5-3 artists. I had 19 GP in all, 1 wasted as a GS, the rest bombed (2-8-8).

Is there anything to learn from this game?
- If you see a 2-food-resource-plus 4FP site, use it for your GPFarm no matter what.
- Parthenon is required for the perfect game.
- You can have 15GP by 1130AD.
- This 2 games, being somewhat mediocres, are better than any of my previous small-map games. That means that I have being learning. One of the things I am aware I have learned this summer is that you have to really make an effort to have your NE done asap.
 

Attachments

  • 2GA a la vez.JPG
    2GA a la vez.JPG
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Vanilla Saladin, 1310AD. 3 turns better, 3 turns away from HOF record, 20 turns away from sub1000AD finish.

Capital was very good, corn+marble+2gold+2FP.
2nd city founded is GPfarm far away, corn+pigs+1FP, sustaining 7 artists.
3rd city, cottage city, cow+ivory+4FP+3grass+3hills.
4th city ignored copper (I knew I could trade for it) and went for food. 5th city for food too.

Poly-Agri-Mining-Masonry-Pott-Wri-Alpha. CoL-Lite-CS-Paper-99%Educ-Philo-
Educ-Liber-Natio(free)-0%research-rush to Construction with specialists. Unable to trade for PP or Economy.

Worker-Warrior-2settler-Parthenon.

Got hindu. No first to confu, tao nor Music.

NE built in 405BC, but couldn't addopt pacifism till 110AD.

1AD stats: 163bpt (quite low), 68GPPpt, 9cottages (low).

A 3rd religion spread 200AD (and a fourth too late).
Burned a GS on Education, Liber-Natio in 290AD, went 100%c then. Musa had Liberalism 2 turns later.

Worker/city ratio 1. I was very short on Workers. It hurt.

1000AD stats: 550-100-300cpt, 353GPPpt, 17cottages, 5 cities, 6 cathedrals.

16GA, 15 of them bombed (maybe 1-9-5). Artists in GPFarms (w/o Mercan): 7-6-5.

6th city flipped too late to matter. A bit of starvation and a quick rush to Constr to save a turn on GA movement gave the 1310AD finish.

Those were the facts. I will try to analyse this game in the next post.
 
jesusin said:
Vanilla Saladin, 1310AD. 3 turns better, 3 turns away from HOF record, 20 turns away from sub1000AD finish.

Capital was very good, corn+marble+2gold+2FP.
2nd city founded is GPfarm far away, corn+pigs+1FP, sustaining 7 artists.
3rd city, cottage city, cow+ivory+4FP+3grass+3hills.
4th city ignored copper (I knew I could trade for it) and went for food. 5th city for food too.

Poly-Agri-Mining-Masonry-Pott-Wri-Alpha. CoL-Lite-CS-Paper-99%Educ-Philo-
Educ-Liber-Natio(free)-0%research-rush to Construction with specialists. Unable to trade for PP or Economy.

Worker-Warrior-2settler-Parthenon.

Got hindu. No first to confu, tao nor Music.

NE built in 405BC, but couldn't addopt pacifism till 110AD.

1AD stats: 163bpt (quite low), 68GPPpt, 9cottages (low).

A 3rd religion spread 200AD (and a fourth too late).
Burned a GS on Education, Liber-Natio in 290AD, went 100%c then. Musa had Liberalism 2 turns later.

Worker/city ratio 1. I was very short on Workers. It hurt.

1000AD stats: 550-100-300cpt, 353GPPpt, 17cottages, 5 cities, 6 cathedrals.

16GA, 15 of them bombed (maybe 1-9-5). Artists in GPFarms (w/o Mercan): 7-6-5.

6th city flipped too late to matter. A bit of starvation and a quick rush to Constr to save a turn on GA movement gave the 1310AD finish.

Those were the facts. I will try to analyse this game in the next post.
Click to expand...

Nice result :goodjob:

Just one question. I am currently trying the BtS Beta-3 using Ghandi (same traits as Saladin in Vanilla) and my major problem is to keep research up at 100%. With 4 fast cities I am down to 40-50%. How can I keep research rate high with a non-financial civ?
 
Code:
HolyHandGrenade said:
Just one question. I am currently trying the BtS Beta-3 using Ghandi (same traits as Saladin in Vanilla) and my major problem is to keep research up at 100%. With 4 fast cities I am down to 40-50%. How can I keep research rate high with a non-financial civ?
Click to expand...

Could you provide some more information? Which year are we talking about? And which map size?

As a guideline I try to have 4 cities by 1000BC in std maps, 3 in small maps. I can't keep 100% research after the GH money has depleted and before AIs have currency. The rest of the game is 100%. After Liberalism it is quite easy to keep 100% culture by selling strategic+happy resources to AIs.
 
jesusin said:
Could you provide some more information? Which year are we talking about? And which map size?

As a guideline I try to have 4 cities by 1000BC in std maps, 3 in small maps. I can't keep 100% research after the GH money has depleted and before AIs have currency. The rest of the game is 100%. After Liberalism it is quite easy to keep 100% culture by selling strategic+happy resources to AIs.
Click to expand...

BtS Beta-3 is:
  • Victory Condition: Cultural
  • Difficulty: Noble
  • Starting Era: Ancient
  • Map Size: Small
  • Map Type: Medium and Small
  • Speed: Any
  • Civ: Any
  • Opponents: Any
I know its not comparable with a Deity Vanilla game, but the problem with getting enough money to keep research at 100% seems to be at each difficulty level.

With the settings above you normally start with 2 other civs on a continent which normally can hold 5-10 cities. So I either had to spread fast to get 4 cities or I had to conquer at least 1 opponent. Both approaches lead to a drastical drop in research.
 
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