Request for a Civ4: BtS "Intermediate" Succession Game

Stats uploaded.

Round 5 Stats

I haven't highlighted everything, since it doesn't work in some cases (like temples, when some players have no religion) and isn't important in units. I didn't highlight any of the new cities either.

Resources were highlighted based on how many different resources the player had.

Also, Putchuco, could you maybe keep the city names the same in the next round please? Makes it easier for me, and I translate it's location into a nickname anyway for the stats. Thanks! It's also confusing when I read "Silk City" founded in ***AD", and cannot find Silk City anywhere (except for "Sugar City" which isn't mentioned in the turn log at all...") .

Nice to see that it wasn't just me that jumped at the chance to settle on our NE Island, Putchuco settled there also. Seems Washington stole the spot in the other games though.

I've also realised my major mistake - no wonders, and not even building any . I just forgot... .

asaegyn, I really think your game would have been better had you taken the last Chinese city ASAP - your economy has suffered from the war weariness (and revolts) in the Chinese cities.

I wait expectantly for your participation in our discussion!

Thanks Jamesds for great stats! once again!
I'm sorry not to have time left with my new work - otherwise I would have helped you gladly.

Though we have followed quite similar paths in terms of building ( eco-wise ), it's great to see how different our tech choices were.

Too bad for you guys who have followed the music path for GA. I am happy to have reached Philo and started religion as it gives us an opportunity to get some happiness and spread religion. Of course, it puts us in an uncomfortable position with other religions...

Jamesds, you have done great in eco terms. You're right, your only concern is the lack of wonders since many of us followed MoM path ( with success there or to come ).

I'm pretty surprised to be the only one to have settled the academy in Babylon. Pigswill lightbulbed Philo with his scientist, but what about you guys ? I always thought it was a strong move to get the academy early, especially with one or two strong food ressources.

I think about getting a GP for Tao shrine and maybe going warlike with the Khmer. They have a s*load of wonders, the hindu shrine and they usually lack defenses. With some knights/trebuchets/maces we could do wonders.

I wondered about GLib choice - it's quite a challenge but isn't it a little bit late ? Well, if we go with this try and manage it : !

Also, we have to think about epics placements. I thought about National Epic in Beijing, Heroic Epic in Akkad or Sippar ( I have already merged a GG there in my game ) and FP in Shanghai.
If we have MoM it's GP eco for GA and drive away tech-wise from everyone especially with organized trait.

Jamesds said:

Stats uploaded.

Round 5 Stats

I haven't highlighted everything, since it doesn't work in some cases (like temples, when some players have no religion) and isn't important in units. I didn't highlight any of the new cities either.

Resources were highlighted based on how many different resources the player had.

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Great job on the stats, James, I wish I could help you, but I'm quite busy these days, and it will only get worse...

I think I'm actually getting a hang of reading the stats and attribute certain events, play-styles and advantages/disadvantages to them. This is certainly helping me in looking and understanding more of what the stats can tell me about a game.

Also, Putchuco, could you maybe keep the city names the same in the next round please? Makes it easier for me, and I translate it's location into a nickname anyway for the stats. Thanks! It's also confusing when I read "Silk City" founded in ***AD", and cannot find Silk City anywhere (except for "Sugar City" which isn't mentioned in the turn log at all...") .

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I knew I was going to make the Silk/Sugar mistake again...

Sorry again for renaming the cities, it makes my life a LOT easier instead of reading and looking at those unknown Babylonian names, I thought you guys might have a similar problem.

Nice to see that it wasn't just me that jumped at the chance to settle on our NE Island, Putchuco settled there also. Seems Washington stole the spot in the other games though.

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I was contemplating for quite a while were to send that extra Settler Erathelix left us from his previous turns. I decided against the Deer location because a city wouldn't really gain that much, and would grow too slowly.
The NE Iron Island is also not growing fast, but I like building towards my opponents, effectively stealing land from them...

I've also realised my major mistake - no wonders, and not even building any . I just forgot... .

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That really does hurt. As I was whining before, I think we have been very quiet on the wonder front... Not having an Golden Age etc pp does hurt, although whenever I try to play (read: try to survive) on higher difficulties I learned to live without wonders, because the AI will just have too big of an advantage over me...
Maybe we could include the current building status of Wonders also in the stats, having a wonder almost done is certainly worth something.

asaegyn, I really think your game would have been better had you taken the last Chinese city ASAP - your economy has suffered from the war weariness (and revolts) in the Chinese cities.

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That is pretty much exactly what I saw, when I checked the happiness in my 'not-so-chinese-anymore' cities... They yearned to join their motherland, and totally went nuts when I declared war on the last city. As soon as that was gone, happiness was restored (not very historically correct, but hey)
A little funny that the other AI will never forgive you the attack on a 'friend', but their own descendants forget that there was a Chinese empire as soon as the last city falls...

I actually researched philosophy the long way, I was a bit slow with the GS so he probably would found an academy or if I get MoM maybe run the first GAge (unless I get GA from music of course (I'll find out on both in a couple of turns)).

Something I forgot completely about is colonial expenses which have already started and are likely to build up substantially. Live with the expense? Turn China into a colony ourselves?

Once we turn China into a colony we will suffer from the loss of GL. We have to think how much we depend on the commerce it generates.

Something I really wasn't sure about was the iron city on the small island. The city there doesn't catch any food resources so will grow slowly. The only resource it gives us is iron which we have already.

It would be nice to establish a china colony that doesn't include Beijing. As well as Glight its also a really excellent location for a GP farm.

pigswill said:

Something I really wasn't sure about was the iron city on the small island. The city there doesn't catch any food resources so will grow slowly. The only resource it gives us is iron which we have already.

It would be nice to establish a china colony that doesn't include Beijing. As well as Glight its also a really excellent location for a GP farm.

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Well, the iron city will be a nice city once it develops, and as Putchuco said, we are effectivly stealing land from the AI. If we don't settle there, it will be a lost chance, more so than for our island or China island (which isn't going to be settled as soon by the AI). I just like getting cities by resources like iron for the production bonus, and to keep them out the way of the AI. If we continued Putchuco's (or my) game, it would be nice to get the fish spot on that island too. All these extra cities do pay off in the mid-late game.

As for keeping the GL, I wholeheartedly agree (what was the whole war about anyway...). I'd also like to keep Shanghai if possible, since it is in a nice position and has potential, I think. We'll just have to settle and see what happens with our colonial expenses. If they are too high, colonisation should be considered. If we develop it the China continent then in time it may pay off (I'd even say it will pay off).

About Forbidden Palace, pigswill, I think I saw that being built in Shanghai - will that help all our cities, or is it limitied to the continent it is built on? Also, is is more productive to build it as far away from our capital as possible to get maximum corruption reduction? Just some thoughts.

I think a major factor right now will be, how do we align ourselves with the other civilizations?

a) it almost looks like Washington is hated by everybody else, and he dragged me into it...

b) how should we use the religions in that aspect?
I'm thinking if we want to get on everybody (but George's) good side we'll adopt Hinduism and help spreading it, if not we'll join Judaism and get to war with Toku, Sury and/or Julius



As to the Chinese colonies, I would be tempted to keep and develop them, unless the burden really becomes big. Our own island is not the biggest, and judging from what I saw from the American or Khmer empire, we don't have as much space as they do.

Putchuco said:

I think a major factor right now will be, how do we align ourselves with the other civilizations?

a) it almost looks like Washington is hated by everybody else, and he dragged me into it...

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Tough luck Putchuco. Seemed to me you wanted to get along well with our powerful neighbour and he left you alone with bad diplomacy overall.

Putchuco said:

b) how should we use the religions in that aspect?
I'm thinking if we want to get on everybody (but George's) good side we'll adopt Hinduism and help spreading it, if not we'll join Judaism and get to war with Toku, Sury and/or Julius

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As for me, we should get into Hindu team by "acquiring" the shrine and along with it the whole khmer civ. In my offline games they have weak defences, concentrating too much on wonders and culture. As for wonders stuff, I think we have some nice collection too in his Yara(...)na-thing city.

Our next GP should be a merchant via specs eco in Babylon or GLight, so we will have some money to upgrade our forces for invasion ( of course we have to build more of them ).

Before this, I would spread Tao as much as possible and try to get the shrine in the holy city. ( via priests specialists maybe ? )

Putchuco said:

As to the Chinese colonies, I would be tempted to keep and develop them, unless the burden really becomes big. Our own island is not the biggest, and judging from what I saw from the American or Khmer empire, we don't have as much space as they do.

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I agree with you, though I might be tempted to dump 2-3 future cities on the northern end of this island. Do something like a protection patch between us and the Japs.

Index of Fifth Round Saves and Reports (Turns 141 - 170)

Saves and Reports

Jamesds
Putchuco: Part 1 (with save) & Part 2
pawelo: Part 1 & Part 2 (with save)
Erathelix
asaegyn
pigswill

Statistics

Round 5 Statistics

Hey everyone, it's been quiet here for the past few days! Cast your votes, with reason(s) as soon as possible, certainly by Sunday evening (say 2100 GMT) so we can play Monday. pawelo, you can elect yourself the leader again if you wish, I won't be present tomorrow.

So, here's my brief outlook on this round:

Jamesds: I'm very happy with my Science rate and economy, but I have neglected Wonders. I have a feeling I could snatch some of the up and coming ones with my newly built Forges, but I've probably lost my chance for MoM, and that's ashame.

Putchuco: Nice city sizes, very much like mine! You've settled on the NE Island in the Iron spot, which I was in favour of. We played similar games, and you have 2 wonders coming, MoM in 4 turns. Ashame about the war you got yourself into, but that happens. You've also discovered all the Civs (the only one here to do that).

pawelo: Your game is very strong, you've founded many cities, and your GNP is great. You also have the MoM - great work! I don't know why Sury is angry with you, but with a few defences we should be safe enough from his attack.

Erathelix: You haven't built enough cities, but you do have a Setter on the move, and that's ok. You've got some good city sizes, and you've succeeded in increasing the population of Copper City by 2 - well done. You've got MoM coming in 2 turns which is fantastic and I think we can be confident of getting it. However, you've got quite bad relations with everyone, and that is hurting your economy (unhappiness and unhealthiness) with the lack of traded resources.

asaegyn: I'm afraid that your game, despite having a good potential from the good decisions you made, was flattened because you waited to capture China's last city. This meant that the other Chinese cities revolted, letting down your empire. It's amazing what effect a simple decision could have on a game in so few a turnset - but don't worry, we are all learning here! I expect a better game from you next round .

pigswill: Your economy has been nicely developed, and is almost exactly like mine. You've traded effectively to gain a nice tech standing, the highest amongst us all. You've expanded our empire nicely. Most importantly, you have the MoM in 3 turns (hopefully), and a GS with which to enact a Golden Age ASAP! It seems you have been trading resources, and this has been beneficial to your empire. I vote for you

We had some great games this turnset, tough decision there. If I thought too deeply about it, I'd have never come to a decision in a month .

Jamesds said:

Hey everyone, it's been quiet here for the past few days! Cast your votes, with reason(s) as soon as possible, certainly by Sunday evening (say 2100 GMT) so we can play Monday. pawelo, you can elect yourself the leader again if you wish, I won't be present tomorrow.

Click to expand...

Elected

Jamesds said:

So, here's my brief outlook on this round:

Jamesds: I'm very happy with my Science rate and economy, but I have neglected Wonders. I have a feeling I could snatch some of the up and coming ones with my newly built Forges, but I've probably lost my chance for MoM, and that's ashame.

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Lazy as I am, I will just add my few cents where my opinions differ

Jamesds, your teching is outstanding, by far the best amongst us. We are well on the way to grab Lib. Still, your lack of MoM is a little bit penalizing regarding other's tries. Also, you passed by the Philo opportunity going for Khmer religion. It's good and bad. Good for teching and relations with Khmer neighbour, bad for our income if we land our shrine.

Jamesds said:

Putchuco: Nice city sizes, very much like mine! You've settled on the NE Island in the Iron spot, which I was in favour of. We played similar games, and you have 2 wonders coming, MoM in 4 turns. Ashame about the war you got yourself into, but that happens. You've also discovered all the Civs (the only one here to do that).

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As I said before Putchuco, you are the scouting master ( and the shadow games confirm it ). Sorry that you have your diplo that bad, your game is very strong on many other aspects.

Jamesds said:

pawelo: Your game is very strong, you've founded many cities, and your GNP is great. You also have the MoM - great work! I don't know why Sury is angry with you, but with a few defences we should be safe enough from his attack.

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I like my game this time. I don't think that some special part went wrong - maybe I should have scouted better. In fact the Khmer don't like me because I refused to gift them a tech ( Monarchy I think ). Also, my Tao spread is rather important and they don't like me on the religious side. My teching was following a war-like path - my goal was to tech up to Mach/Guilds and invade the Khmers, grabbing ALL THOSE WONDERS ( including the shrine ) and a very nice bunch of land ( from what I've seen from your games ).

Jamesds said:

Erathelix: You haven't built enough cities, but you do have a Setter on the move, and that's ok. You've got some good city sizes, and you've succeeded in increasing the population of Copper City by 2 - well done. You've got MoM coming in 2 turns which is fantastic and I think we can be confident of getting it. However, you've got quite bad relations with everyone, and that is hurting your economy (unhappiness and unhealthiness) with the lack of traded resources.

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I have nothing to add to Jamesds masterful analysis
Good try Erathelix, as the previous one!

Jamesds said:

asaegyn: I'm afraid that your game, despite having a good potential from the good decisions you made, was flattened because you waited to capture China's last city. This meant that the other Chinese cities revolted, letting down your empire. It's amazing what effect a simple decision could have on a game in so few a turnset - but don't worry, we are all learning here! I expect a better game from you next round .

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Once again, I agree with Jamesds. You are suffering a bit, having left Chinese for such a long time, especially in former chinese cities like Beijing and Shanghai. Ever since Civ2, I never leave a single-city civ if I keep other cities from this civ.

Jamesds said:

pigswill: Your economy has been nicely developed, and is almost exactly like mine. You've traded effectively to gain a nice tech standing, the highest amongst us all. You've expanded our empire nicely. Most importantly, you have the MoM in 3 turns (hopefully), and a GS with which to enact a Golden Age ASAP! It seems you have been trading resources, and this has been beneficial to your empire. I vote for you

We had some great games this turnset, tough decision there. If I thought too deeply about it, I'd have never come to a decision in a month .

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As in the last one, great eco try. I would have landed Academy for beakers earlier, but your choice to get a GA as soon as MoM is up may well be more interesting than 15 turns of Academy. I vote for you too - great job!

Please submit votes today guys - this game has suffered some delay. Let's try not to leave it to a slow death - things are very interesting but our pace is rather soft.

Cheers everyone!

pawelo

I'd probably go for Jamesds but happy to play any of the saves.

I think that we should have considered the whole colonial expenses issue before invading China. As i understand it you need two overseas cities before they can become a colony. A good strategy may have been to capture Nanjing and Shanghai first, turn them into a colony, capture Beijing as a keeper then gift any other china cities to the new colony. Bit late for that of course in this game.

I think that in my save colonial expenses are already 30gpt+ and there are still a few sites waiting to be cities so this could get really expensive. Whichever save we play from it may pay to turn existing china cities ino a colony and grab one maybe two prime sites as keepers, particularly sites that would give us resources not available in Mesopotamia.

At 1000ad we should also be thinking about the victory condition to aim for. Due to our small landmass I think space would be difficult. Diplomatic is an option but it would need planning and consistent application. Pseudo-diplomatic is worth considering; invade our neighbours and turn them into colonies or vassals who are obliged to vote for us regardless of attitude.

Well, all has been said about our games this round so I'll just vote.
We have many strong candidates but I like Jamesds and Pigswill games most due to great economy/research.
My vote goes with pigswill due to very good relations with our neighbors.

hey guys,
i'm very busy right now, so i'll just put my vote here. the games were all well played and i'm learning a lot.

i vote for pigswill's game.

cheers,
asaegyn

Hey everyone!

Though we have Putchuco's and frob's ( are you still with us ? ) votes missing, pigswill's game has already 4 votes so we will continue this one.

You can follow the link to get it :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5930612&postcount=310

Having no other info available, I suppose we are up for 30 turns.

Anyway, lets play and report before Wednesday evening.

Cheers!

pawelo

Thanks pawelo, and to all who voted. I'm glad you liked my analysis, because is did take a good part of an hour! I think I'll decrease the discussion/analysis time to 2 days, since it dries up a little quickly sometimes .

So, pigswill's game it is. Let's try and get that in for Wednesday evening, as pawelo said. Thursday and Friday will be our discussion days, with Friday also being the voting day.

I'll be submitting my game soon, see y'all then!

I apologize, I'm stretched extremely thin these days, will be moving internationally on Friday.

I hope I can get this turn in tonite or tomorrow, after that I won't see my PC for another 2-3 months. That will mean, no Civ4 for me in that time...
Anyway, I'll still be following this game, has been a lot of fun!

Wow Putchuco, where are you moving from/to? I will also be moving this Saturday, to Uni - so I'll be busier too. I'll be sad to see you go, Putchuco - you've been a great player in this SG - it was only a matter of time until we continued one of your games . Well, here's my report:

Well, that was a fun turnset from a builder’s point of view! I quite enjoyed it.

Jamesds said:

Wow Putchuco, where are you moving from/to? I will also be moving this Saturday, to Uni - so I'll be busier too. I'll be sad to see you go, Putchuco - you've been a great player in this SG - it was only a matter of time until we continued one of your games .

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Moving from Florida to Germany. Gosh, so many things to organize, won't be doing that again any time soon.


Yes, bummer I have to call it quits this week, it sure was fun.
I guess I'll have to wait for the next round with you guys....