Empyrean. Is there a point?
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Nikis-Knight
Deity
I see no reason not to cross-post this to show Empyrean themes, and the others for comparison. (as always, only what's actually in game is authoritative, but this was our thinking.)
[originally posted Aug. 31, 2007]So far, the ideas behind the religions have been left pretty wide open to interpretation, which I think was a good idea. There was some unit models, a theme, alignment and heroes with their stories. But now with events effecting and relying upon them, it would be useful to spell out our assumptions such that we all approach them in the same way.
The Order--Good/law
strength: Rebellion
weakness: Inspiration
[tab]Overall the order is easy to understand, but also easy to caricature. they are not infallible, as is their good, but they are one of the most good religions.
[tab]Law is basically a code that applies universally. The Order is certainly judgemental, but that isn't to say they judge based on taste or individual preference. Everyone is subject to the same laws and appropriate consequences, be they king or pauper. Further, they believe this applies to all people, not just the followers of their religion. Consequences fit the crime, guilty are punished, and the innocent are protected. But while they make a more or less just society, mercy and redemption are weak points of the order.
[tab]The other theme of the Order is its conflict with demons. The principle reason why the Order is rightly labeled good is because they are willing to die to protect others from demonic oppression.
The Empyrean-Good?/Sun
strength: Judgement
weakness: Crime
[tab]I assume the Empyrean will be good? There are lots of ways to approach a sun religion, but going on what we've established through Varn gosam and the Malakim, and wanting a contrast with the Order:
[tab] "As every dawn is a new beginning for the world, so to can dawn break in even the darkest heart" The Sun rises every day, bringing a new dawn and a new oppurtunity. In the same way, the Empyrean prize redemtion and reconcilliation. People are given a new chance, even evil-doers. They are not infinitely patient, but error in the opposite direction of the Order. This is extended to other civilizations by leaders following the Empyrean, but if the evil leaders fail to heed their calls to repent, the Empyrean can certainly be roused to arms for their faith.
[tab] "The sun brings light and life; do not cloak yourself in shadows, but let your own light be an illumintation." Another aspect of this religion is its opposition to shadows, darkness, and hidden things. All of their society is open; people try to live by example. This can lead to a certain self-righteousness, and certainly to gossip, etc., but deception is almost unheard of, and even tact may be rare.
Runes of Kilmorph-Neutral/good/Earth
strength: Economy
weakness: Deal
[tab]This is presented as a good religion, albeit one that tolerates neutrality, and also as one that promotes wealth in game. Possibly a contradiction? Not really, here's how it might work:
[tab]The runes of Kilmorph is a personal guideline, resulting from the stories of the first dwarves, mainly emphasizing personal responsibity. Followers are exhorted to do their best in their craft, deal honestly with everyone, and to repay their debts. This is especially applied to family and close kin, and results in tight communal loyalty. Followers of RoK are usually quite industrious and seldom cheat their customers. Since this results in a prosperous economy, some followers mistake the benefits of the creed for its goals, and greed is not an unfamiliar vice.
[tab]But they may not be so quick to help a stranger in need, especially one from another culture, nation, or religion, and unlike the order or the Empyrean, they would seldom be roused to arms in defense of a foreign land--unless those foreigners had done them a favor in the past.
Fellowship of Leaves-Neutral/Nature
strength: Inspiration
weakness: Economy
[tab]Nature is directly responsible for sustaining life, so it is easy to see it as good. In FfH2, FoL is defined as neutral, meaning it doesn't change the civ's alignment. So its tenets are either ambiguous, contradictory, or do not pertain to how to treat other sentient beings.
[tab]Perhaps this is due to a disorganized structure. Followers of the FoL do not rely upon revelation from Sucellus or Cernunos [sp?], rather upon reflections on the natural world around them. All followers share a respect and delight in natural places, and seek to spread the sphere of life's vitality; there is little concern, officially, for any particular lives, however.
[tab]FoL'ers will fight for their own lands, and crusade to end wide-scale corruption of nature, but rarely intervene in any conflict otherwise, or at least rarely sanction such intervention by the tenets of their creed. Personal ethics of the Fellowship vary dramaticaly, from emulting the care of a mother hen, to the ferocity and guile of a rabid hyena.
The Octopus Overlords-neutral-evil/water
strength: Prophecy
weakness: Judgement
[tab]These guys seem worse to me than the Council of Esus; perhaps they should move the adopter one notch towards evil, and the CoE have their current alignment scheme of allowing neutrals to stay as is? Either way, they are fairly well established.
[tab]Each word of the name can well describe one aspect of the religion. Octopus is a creature more alien to man (and elves, etc.) than certainly any mammal, and even the lizardmen and others. They are incomprehensible, and thus maddening. Completely alien, and so uncaring of humans fate. Overlords shows the view this religion has of itself. Its leaders serve the Deep Monsters, and their goal is subjugation of the world.
[tab]Their domain is stolen from its rightful steward, or at least subverted. So the overlords are both reckless and insecure in their powers, and thus rarely subtle; they never use a breeze when a typhoon would do.
The Council of Esus-evil(/neutral?)/shadow
strength: Crime
weakness: Prophecy
[tab]"Shadow" is a good means, but how about an end? The followers of this religion are those who value secrecy above all else, for whatever reason. Some persue taboos, whatever that may be in their culture. Some have some sort of psycological insecurity; most are seeking to use the power and techniques of the religion to subvert seccular authority above them. So I would expect most nations would take a very dim view of others with this religion or anyone spreading it to their lands... though not necessarily more than the other evils, I guess.
[tab]Personally, adherants to this religion detest judgement of anysort. They wish to hide who they are and what they do, and resent anyone telling them what to do. Of course, this isn't to say that they don't scrutinize each other. The other factor is a lack of trust. The god of trust is fallen, so even the Order or Empyrean share a certain suspicion of outsiders, but the Council wears deception like a coat, and knowing how they are putting one over on each other tends to make them entirely without trust even of each other.
The Ashen Veil--evil/entropy
strength: deal
weakness: Rebellion
[tab] Their goals are obvious and the evil undeniable, but what motivates them? I see 3 tiers. The initiate seeks power, more quickly than through the council, and of course with fewer restrictions than any good religion. Later, they have gotten their power, taken their revenge or whatever, but it is quickly coming time to pay the piper, and lest they be taken by the demons they bargained with, they need to find others to fill the ranks. Finally, the very upper echelon serve the same cause as their god--corrupting the world. So that when judgement day comes, Agares and his servants can point to the huge numbers of the fallen and say, "see, temporance was flawed; my mistakes were not my fault!" So they seek to justify themselves by damning the rest of creation.
[tab] Needless to say, they aren't very nice to be around, feeling no remorse for any sort of cruelty or coercion; but this isn't to say that they can't work together towards their goals, even civily. Most do not persue cruelty for its own sake Though it would certainly not offend them if their peers were, they don't by and large indulge in it for it's own sake as the OO might.
[originally posted Aug. 31, 2007]So far, the ideas behind the religions have been left pretty wide open to interpretation, which I think was a good idea. There was some unit models, a theme, alignment and heroes with their stories. But now with events effecting and relying upon them, it would be useful to spell out our assumptions such that we all approach them in the same way.
The Order--Good/law
strength: Rebellion
weakness: Inspiration
[tab]Overall the order is easy to understand, but also easy to caricature. they are not infallible, as is their good, but they are one of the most good religions.
[tab]Law is basically a code that applies universally. The Order is certainly judgemental, but that isn't to say they judge based on taste or individual preference. Everyone is subject to the same laws and appropriate consequences, be they king or pauper. Further, they believe this applies to all people, not just the followers of their religion. Consequences fit the crime, guilty are punished, and the innocent are protected. But while they make a more or less just society, mercy and redemption are weak points of the order.
[tab]The other theme of the Order is its conflict with demons. The principle reason why the Order is rightly labeled good is because they are willing to die to protect others from demonic oppression.
The Empyrean-Good?/Sun
strength: Judgement
weakness: Crime
[tab]I assume the Empyrean will be good? There are lots of ways to approach a sun religion, but going on what we've established through Varn gosam and the Malakim, and wanting a contrast with the Order:
[tab] "As every dawn is a new beginning for the world, so to can dawn break in even the darkest heart" The Sun rises every day, bringing a new dawn and a new oppurtunity. In the same way, the Empyrean prize redemtion and reconcilliation. People are given a new chance, even evil-doers. They are not infinitely patient, but error in the opposite direction of the Order. This is extended to other civilizations by leaders following the Empyrean, but if the evil leaders fail to heed their calls to repent, the Empyrean can certainly be roused to arms for their faith.
[tab] "The sun brings light and life; do not cloak yourself in shadows, but let your own light be an illumintation." Another aspect of this religion is its opposition to shadows, darkness, and hidden things. All of their society is open; people try to live by example. This can lead to a certain self-righteousness, and certainly to gossip, etc., but deception is almost unheard of, and even tact may be rare.
Kael said:
Runes of Kilmorph-Neutral/good/Earth
strength: Economy
weakness: Deal
[tab]This is presented as a good religion, albeit one that tolerates neutrality, and also as one that promotes wealth in game. Possibly a contradiction? Not really, here's how it might work:
[tab]The runes of Kilmorph is a personal guideline, resulting from the stories of the first dwarves, mainly emphasizing personal responsibity. Followers are exhorted to do their best in their craft, deal honestly with everyone, and to repay their debts. This is especially applied to family and close kin, and results in tight communal loyalty. Followers of RoK are usually quite industrious and seldom cheat their customers. Since this results in a prosperous economy, some followers mistake the benefits of the creed for its goals, and greed is not an unfamiliar vice.
[tab]But they may not be so quick to help a stranger in need, especially one from another culture, nation, or religion, and unlike the order or the Empyrean, they would seldom be roused to arms in defense of a foreign land--unless those foreigners had done them a favor in the past.
Kael said:
Fellowship of Leaves-Neutral/Nature
strength: Inspiration
weakness: Economy
[tab]Nature is directly responsible for sustaining life, so it is easy to see it as good. In FfH2, FoL is defined as neutral, meaning it doesn't change the civ's alignment. So its tenets are either ambiguous, contradictory, or do not pertain to how to treat other sentient beings.
[tab]Perhaps this is due to a disorganized structure. Followers of the FoL do not rely upon revelation from Sucellus or Cernunos [sp?], rather upon reflections on the natural world around them. All followers share a respect and delight in natural places, and seek to spread the sphere of life's vitality; there is little concern, officially, for any particular lives, however.
[tab]FoL'ers will fight for their own lands, and crusade to end wide-scale corruption of nature, but rarely intervene in any conflict otherwise, or at least rarely sanction such intervention by the tenets of their creed. Personal ethics of the Fellowship vary dramaticaly, from emulting the care of a mother hen, to the ferocity and guile of a rabid hyena.
Kael said:
The Octopus Overlords-neutral-evil/water
strength: Prophecy
weakness: Judgement
[tab]These guys seem worse to me than the Council of Esus; perhaps they should move the adopter one notch towards evil, and the CoE have their current alignment scheme of allowing neutrals to stay as is? Either way, they are fairly well established.
[tab]Each word of the name can well describe one aspect of the religion. Octopus is a creature more alien to man (and elves, etc.) than certainly any mammal, and even the lizardmen and others. They are incomprehensible, and thus maddening. Completely alien, and so uncaring of humans fate. Overlords shows the view this religion has of itself. Its leaders serve the Deep Monsters, and their goal is subjugation of the world.
[tab]Their domain is stolen from its rightful steward, or at least subverted. So the overlords are both reckless and insecure in their powers, and thus rarely subtle; they never use a breeze when a typhoon would do.
The Council of Esus-evil(/neutral?)/shadow
strength: Crime
weakness: Prophecy
[tab]"Shadow" is a good means, but how about an end? The followers of this religion are those who value secrecy above all else, for whatever reason. Some persue taboos, whatever that may be in their culture. Some have some sort of psycological insecurity; most are seeking to use the power and techniques of the religion to subvert seccular authority above them. So I would expect most nations would take a very dim view of others with this religion or anyone spreading it to their lands... though not necessarily more than the other evils, I guess.
[tab]Personally, adherants to this religion detest judgement of anysort. They wish to hide who they are and what they do, and resent anyone telling them what to do. Of course, this isn't to say that they don't scrutinize each other. The other factor is a lack of trust. The god of trust is fallen, so even the Order or Empyrean share a certain suspicion of outsiders, but the Council wears deception like a coat, and knowing how they are putting one over on each other tends to make them entirely without trust even of each other.
The Ashen Veil--evil/entropy
strength: deal
weakness: Rebellion
[tab] Their goals are obvious and the evil undeniable, but what motivates them? I see 3 tiers. The initiate seeks power, more quickly than through the council, and of course with fewer restrictions than any good religion. Later, they have gotten their power, taken their revenge or whatever, but it is quickly coming time to pay the piper, and lest they be taken by the demons they bargained with, they need to find others to fill the ranks. Finally, the very upper echelon serve the same cause as their god--corrupting the world. So that when judgement day comes, Agares and his servants can point to the huge numbers of the fallen and say, "see, temporance was flawed; my mistakes were not my fault!" So they seek to justify themselves by damning the rest of creation.
[tab] Needless to say, they aren't very nice to be around, feeling no remorse for any sort of cruelty or coercion; but this isn't to say that they can't work together towards their goals, even civily. Most do not persue cruelty for its own sake Though it would certainly not offend them if their peers were, they don't by and large indulge in it for it's own sake as the OO might.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Nice summary. I agree completely.
I actually tried to add the empyrean turning neutral to good and the council turning neutral to evil but failed.
Now that I think of it, it does seem like making OO do this might be better. It would also give formerly Neutral OO civs able to upgrade their drowns/Stygian guards to Eidola. If I can figure out how to change alignments in python, I'll make the alignment changes you suggested.
I actually tried to add the empyrean turning neutral to good and the council turning neutral to evil but failed.
Now that I think of it, it does seem like making OO do this might be better. It would also give formerly Neutral OO civs able to upgrade their drowns/Stygian guards to Eidola. If I can figure out how to change alignments in python, I'll make the alignment changes you suggested.
it-ogo
Hedgehog
- Joined
- May 23, 2007
- Messages
- 589
Where is it posted? It should be somewhere in Lore, maybe as a start of religon thread.
xienwolf
Deity
By the looks of it, it was originally posted in the Team only Forum, and before .3 was released (judging by the not yet knowing that Empyrean would be Neutral/Good like RoK)
Jinxicus
Chieftain
That sun 3 spell he has. I did not need any siege weapons or fireballs in my last game. I just walked up popped the spell and attacked, they all fell within two turns. Getting the Host of El(something I can't remember right now) summon as well I was able to keep attacking turn after turn with a growing army. The sun 3 spell does massive damage and if your lucky repeats every turn freeing up the hero for another summon. I took almost the entire game with this guy Basium and one or two angels/Empyrean unique chariots. I'm not sure if he is alone in this but he can also attack and cast in the same turn with a power of I think 10.
OzzyKP
Emperor
Playing as Malakim the Khazad declared war on me and dropped a stack of units outside one of my cities. I had just finished killing off the Vampires in the opposite direction and my army wasn't close to able to respond. Thankfully I was Empyrean and I had two units nearby with blinding light. Eventually I got an adept to the city with charm person.
Those three units kept the killer stack completely incapacitated. By the time I assembled some units I decided to just bypass their stack altogether and assault the Runes holy city. It wasn't a quick siege, but one of my old warriors (now upgraded to swordsman) had all sorts of promotions and he did all the work. I took the city.
Eventually I built some Vicars and used their ring of fire spell to weaken the huge stack (that has just been sitting still outside my city for 30 turns or so) and cut down the stack enough that I was able to pick it apart. It never even got the chance to attack.
Empyrean
Those three units kept the killer stack completely incapacitated. By the time I assembled some units I decided to just bypass their stack altogether and assault the Runes holy city. It wasn't a quick siege, but one of my old warriors (now upgraded to swordsman) had all sorts of promotions and he did all the work. I took the city.
Eventually I built some Vicars and used their ring of fire spell to weaken the huge stack (that has just been sitting still outside my city for 30 turns or so) and cut down the stack enough that I was able to pick it apart. It never even got the chance to attack.
Empyrean
OzzyKP
Emperor
Ah, didn't think of that. Better yet.
OzzyKP
Emperor
Speaking of which, what ever happened to the magic resistance trait?
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
It is still there, but no leader has it. I think that adaptive trait civs might be able to chose it though.
I'm going to misspell some names here, but:
I used to only play Capria/Order, but I've played around with a few other civs now, and I really like Malakim/Emp and Sidar/Emp.
I'm playing a game right now where my two biggest rivals are Valladia and Perpentach. There are only two other civs that are good, and they are both weak. Valladia and Perpentach are basically allies, and they declare war on Garrim. I basically give away honor to civs I have decent relationship to, and I end up stopping the Valladia/Garrim war and bring Valladia in the war against Perpentach.
Perp turns out to stronger than I realize and is able to beat us back. I'm not ashamed to say I'm going back a few turns.
btw, is there a reason why you can't build radiant guard after getting iron working? It's pretty annoying imo, especially since it's the only outdated unit I know of that you can't build.
Soldiers of Kilmorph obsolete too. This is really annoying, because they are nice to keep around and build for the protable production (50% efficient) that they provide. They are like mini engineers, but with enough of them you can rush build a lot of things.
