SGOTM 13 - Smurkz

I like that last dotmap, very good work Othniel! I don't see how we could improve on that, is it even possile to settle tighter? No reason though, I think Othniel's map will give the best long-term potential.

eldar's plan looks good to me.

lurker's comment: I'm not too familiar with the SGOTM resource pack...but the blips on the clams show 2 extra food. Wouldn't that mean that the clams on the coast would give 4 food each, and the fish in the sea would only give 3?

You're right about the clams, they are the same as fish, 4 food. The fish in the sea would give the same fpt as a fish on coast, but one less commerce.

oh yeah, sea is 1 less commerce, not one less food

Sorry, no time to read everything, hopefully tomorrow. Just some quick comments:

I like the new dotmap. Lightblue is lowest priority IMO, Pink highest. One of our settler pumps can do a worker, Ao and Akichi should grow IMO.

I am not sure it is good to cut research on Lit. Libs will help to shorten research times, and researching is cheaper than buying until we get near the front of the science race. Republic + CoL + Philo is about 2400 beakers, remainder on Lit is 450. Even with modest assumptions we can expect to get to Republic around the same time through Lit or without.

Is Republic worth it anyway? Republic costs 1600 beakers (and 1 turn anarchy), and it will take some time to make up for that cost. Probably it will: an additional 1 gpt per citizen and 1 gpt per town, plus lifting of the despotism penalty probably outweighs the additional lux tax. Especially if we have multiplier buildings...

Unit support matters little I think. We won't have much military until Astro.

Regarding FPJ: I am mostly concerned with commerce, not shields. FPJ will cost commerce from Sensei (low pop before and after palace jump, loss of buildings after jump) and possibly other towns (pop restrictions). A hand built palace will cost commerce through corruption. I don't know which is best.

Niklas said:

I don't see how we could improve on that, is it even possile to settle tighter?

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I was trying to work out an even tighter pattern because quite a number of tiles are still unworked, but with Ao and Akichi fixed in place, this was the best I could do. Anyone else see a tighter pattern?

sercer88 said:

Wouldn't that mean that the clams on the coast would give 4 food each...

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Good catch! I'm still getting used to the Med resource pack. This is good news on the clams. That means we can support even more pop if we want to.

zyxy said:

I am not sure it is good to cut research on Lit. Libs will help to shorten research times, and researching is cheaper than buying until we get near the front of the science race

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Is it cheaper? If so, we might need to reconsider the plan to build money improvements. My understanding was that almost always it's cheaper to buy techs than to self-research when you've fallen way behind the AI.

Buying is also quite flexible in that you can use gpt, luxes, agreements, etc. to buy techs, plus perhaps legally get some of those deals cut prematurely, giving you a low-cost or free tech (I know that gets into exploit territory ). Basically, I'm looking for the math on this one because I'm quite curious.

My experience is that it is definitely easier to catch up by buying techs with gpt than to research them yourself. And another nice corollary is that you get the tech right away, which opens possibilities for twofers, assuming any such will be presented to us. And like Othniel says, there's luxes, agreements, maps(!), etc that will help us bring down the prices.

I think it would be a mistake to complete literature. I would argue against the use of libraries anywhere.

If we wait with the FPJ the point where we would make more money having jumped the capitol, which will happen sooner rather than later, then I don't see how that could be more costly than to build it manually. 300 shields is bound to take >50 turns, and I would definitely expect us to jump the palace in that time frame.

Btw, we don't need to let Sensei drop in size before the jump. We can build a settler as the last thing before the jump just to be able to replace it, but we don't need it capped at size 2, we can abandon it manually (Rightclick -> Abandon city) regardless of size.

I accept Othniel's revised dotmap

I'm not convinced Pink should be settled first, Yellow will be less corrupt has better shield potential and also opens up additional BGs for Akichi and Ao. Pink is #2 on my list.

If we let Ao grow then we ought to get a worker down to the island ASAP, so the first build from Sensei post-harbor can be a worker not a settler.

So a slightly revised plan for the current cities:
Sensei: Harbor->Worker(for island)->Settlers
Ao: Wealth->Harbor and Sci->BG (Harbor won't complete this turnset so it can be changed later if desired)

We need consensus on whether or not to settle Pink or Yellow first but again that won't come up in this turnset as the settler will be only 1 turn out of Sensei by then.

I will (finally) play my set this evening!

Niklas said:

My experience is that it is definitely easier to catch up by buying techs with gpt than to research them yourself. And another nice corollary is that you get the tech right away, which opens possibilities for twofers, assuming any such will be presented to us. And like Othniel says, there's luxes, agreements, maps(!), etc that will help us bring down the prices.

I think it would be a mistake to complete literature. I would argue against the use of libraries anywhere.

Click to expand...

My experience is that the AI always charges more than what a tech is worth at the higher difficulty levels. Is your experience different?
You are of course right that trading becomes more attractive than research when brokering is possible. But will it be? Unlikely, just look at the wonder races. Many AIs must be near the end of the age already.

Selling resources (except perhaps with the Torch civ) or maps is impossible until Astronomy and Navigation. That's tens of thousands of beakers into the future. To me, libs are clearly the way to go. Well, I guess eldar will just have to choose what he thinks best.

If we wait with the FPJ the point where we would make more money having jumped the capitol, which will happen sooner rather than later, then I don't see how that could be more costly than to build it manually. 300 shields is bound to take >50 turns, and I would definitely expect us to jump the palace in that time frame.

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Ok, this sounds good.

Lit vs. No Lit.

Lit definitely delays us 19 turns in getting to Republic. What if we pre-build a couple of Libraries though? Will that help shave time off? Remember Libs cost 2gpt maintenance so there is that to call into consideration. We won't be able to run at 100% Sci.

No Lit means no Libs for a long time. I'd rather have them than not.... so I'm going to keep on with Lit. This turnset has taken too long in the prevarication stages, I just want to get it played now!

Going for Lit won't delay us a full 19 turns to Republic, but it will definitely delay us in getting there. Do libs really cost 2 gpt? If Lit is what the team wants then I will agree too, but I definitely think it's a waste of time. The only value I can see for Lit is if we can trade it somewhere.

eldar said:

Lit vs. No Lit.

Lit definitely delays us 19 turns in getting to Republic. What if we pre-build a couple of Libraries though? Will that help shave time off? Remember Libs cost 2gpt maintenance so there is that to call into consideration. We won't be able to run at 100% Sci.

No Lit means no Libs for a long time. I'd rather have them than not.... so I'm going to keep on with Lit. This turnset has taken too long in the prevarication stages, I just want to get it played now!

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lurker's comment: I'm pretty sure Libs cost 1 gpt maintenance.

I really like this discussion, though...it's opening up my mind. I sort of have this sort of discussion with myself for every single building I can build....except not as thorough, they're usually one-argument discussions

eldar said:

Lit definitely delays us 19 turns in getting to Republic. What if we pre-build a couple of Libraries though? Will that help shave time off? Remember Libs cost 2gpt maintenance so there is that to call into consideration. We won't be able to run at 100% Sci.

[...]No Lit means no Libs for a long time. I'd rather have them than not.... so I'm going to keep on with Lit.

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This Lit question has been dragging out a little. So has the question with self-research vs. buy techs

The more I think about it, the more I think that completing Lit is a bit of a waste. I also really believe that buying techs will be more effective that research so Libraries are not effective for a while to come.

My experience has also been that going 0% sci, perhaps coupled with a lone scientist going after an obscure optional tech, and generating lots of cash to buy techs is the best way to catch up. Researching a tech more or less locks all your cash into that tech until you finish it off. Buying a tech, if done creatively , will often let you get techs in just a fraction of the time needed to research. Plus it can open up two-fers more quickly and gives diplomatic leverage.

Even though Republic is quite a few turns off, building Libraries specifically to speed it up doesn't seem like a good move the more I look at it. We have all these things to spend shields on:

- Galleys
- Temples for certain cities
- Settlers from our pumps
- Workers
- Warriors (a couple) for barbs and mp
- Courthouses possibly

Libraries could be used instead of temples for culture expansion but the cost difference (80 vs 20 for our cheap temples) seems too steep. Plus, if we do build Libs, it'll likely be just short-term because we'll want to sell them off once we go 0% research. Also, where would we build the Libs? Anywhere on the big island would probably be too corrupt pre-Republic to help much. We need our non-corrupt cities as settler pumps.

Now, all that said, I'm fine with the turnplayer, eldar, making the final choice. The team seems a little dead-locking in this decision, and if eldar wants to go for Lit, then I'm ok with gambling that we can get some trade value out of it. I still believe the Lit vs no Lit decision to be very marginal in its effects.

So, eldar, IMO just make the decision you feel is best. (just don't screw it up! ) No, I trust your judgment.

Multiple x-post... unfortunately I'd made the decision (to continue with Lit) before I saw the above posts. I think Akichi will be un-corrupt enough (19%?) to benefit from a Library. It has plenty of commerce potential so it may not be a total waste. Even 1 Library, there, would help. It's Temple still isn't done so there's time to switch it to a Granary as a Lib pre-build if we want.

>> Save <<

T0 330BC Akichi Sci->BG, Ao Sci->BG, Wealth->Harbor, Sushi Palace->Granary - wasting 116 shields Moved the boat to 1NE of Akichi and unloaded the Warrior into Akichi. Lit now in 25.
T1 310BC Sensei Harbor->Worker, Sushi Granary->Harbor. Sensei grows to size 3. Re-assign Sensei & Sushi Citizens for more cash, timing Worker with growth and getting Harbor still in 5 (after a swap back after 2 turns). Move boat (now named Gojira) back towards Sensei. Move warrior (Akira) down south. Lit now in 21 @ -2gpt (6 in treasury).
T2 290BC Another slight tile re-adjust in Sensei for a bit more cash. Lit now in 19 @ -2gpt (4 in treasury).
T3 270BC Decide to keep Sushi on its higher-cash setting and get a slightly slower Harbor. Swapping Sensei back to the cow for growth this turn means Lit still in 19 @ -2gpt (2 in treasury).
T4 250BC Sensei Worker->Settler. Worker loaded onto Gojira, sail it down towards the island. Sensei settler factory (6 turn cycle): 1: BG+Cow+Rocks (3f6s) 2: Fish+Cow+Rocks (7f10s) 3: Fish+Coast+Rocks(+Cow) (0f14s) 4: Fish+Coast+Cow+Rocks (4f18s) 5: Fish+Plains+Cow+Rocks (3f24s) 6: Fish+BG+Coast+Rocks(+Cow) (0f30s) Sci down to 80%. Lit in 22 @ +1gpt (0 in treasury).
T5 230BC Worker unloaded onto BG. Sci @ 90%. Lit in 18 @ -1gpt (1 in treasury).
T6 210BC Worker roads. Sci @ 80%. Lit in 19 @ +2gpt (0 in treasury).
T7 190BC Sushi Harbor->Galley. Lux @ 10%. Lit in 17 @ -1gpt (2 in treasury).
T8 170BC Sushi grows to size 4. Swaps Clams and BG with Nibanme. Lit in 15 @ -1gpt (1 in treasury).
T9 150BC Sci @ 70%. Lit in 15 @ +2gpt (0 in treasury). Leave it there - it's getting late, this rectifies the turn numbers.

Somehow I expected to get more done.

Sensei will finish its settler next turn. Sushi is on slow growth for its galley, at size 5 we would need 20% Lux. I think we may want to stifle its growth to produce a settler unless we think 20% Lux is okay for a bit. It should run at 2-4 in 8 turns for a settler.

Both Akichi and Ao will grow next turn. Akichi will get an MP, Ao a Sci, unless it's not too corrupt to benefit from the 10% Lux.

Got the save; plan to have a strategy post later tonight or tomorrow.

Looks like I'll be doing a lot of juggling with Gold and Beakers.

Things sound like they are going pretty well. Good work, eldar.

eldar said:

unfortunately I'd made the decision (to continue with Lit) before I saw the above posts.

Click to expand...

Hey, it works. We'll just have to hope that we can find some poor, illiterate AI wanting to get on the road to higher learning.

At the same time, I don't support us educating our people by building Libraries. For the reasons I mentioned in my long post above, I think we have more important uses for our shields than building Libs right now.

It is a little bit of a bummer how much we're needing to slow research just to stay solvent.

State of Smurkz 150 BC
Literature in 15 turns: 20% Tax, 70% Science, 10% Luxuries

We are broke (0 gold) but are making 2gpt.

City Report:
Sensei (4): grows in 1, settler in 2 (completes this IBT due to growth).
Nibanme (2): zero growth, wealth.
Sushi (4): grows in 8, vGalley in 4.
Akichi (1): grows in 1, temple in 4.
Ao (1): grows in 1, harbor in 6.

Next Builds:
Sensei settler -> settler
Sushi vGalley -> vGalley
Akichi temple -> wealth
Ao harbor -> wealth

Next Citizens:
Ninbame: no growth
Sushi: 5th citizen becomes a scientist.
Akichi: upon growth, both citizens become fishermen for more commerce (and no growth).
Ao: 2nd citizen becomes a scientist.


Sensei Settler Factory (6 turns):
1: BG+Cow+Rocks (3f6s)
2: Fish+Cow+Rocks (7f10s)
3: Fish+Coast+Rocks(+Cow) (0f14s)
4: Fish+Coast+Cow+Rocks (4f18s)
5: Fish+Plains+Cow+Rocks (3f24s)
6: Fish+BG+Coast+Rocks(+Cow) (0f30s)

Smurkz Military:
01 Worker
05 Warrior
01 Galley

Allowed units: 20
Total units: 07
Unit support: 00 gold per turn

International Affairs:
We know no one.
No one knows us.

Strategy of Smurkz:

Long Term Goals: Lead Japan on a mission to the stars.

Mid Term Goals: Make friends and swap knowledge. Mildly debate the wisdom of having Rik Meleet create another SGOTM map.D)

Short Term Goals/Tasks:

• Settler in Sensei sails south to set up a city on the smallest section of South Smurkz. (Pink Dot on the chokepoint).
• Sailing all the way to Pink Dot gets us there two turns faster than unloading into Ao and walking to Pink Dot.
• Warrior Akira moves into Akichi for guard duty.
• Worker roads to Ao (commerce first) and then roads to Pink Dot (from Ao: SW, SW (connects to Yellow Dot) and S).
• Sensei a 6 turn settler pump.
• Sail west looking for coastal tiles.
• New city starts a worker.
• Next settler sails to Yellow Dot in the vGalley from Sushi.

Should be able to play Friday night/Saturday morning.

I wasn't exactly happy with the sequence for Sensei - it's one of those where if you feel the need to swap things round for any reason, do so, because in the end there's potential for plenty of shields in those 6 turns. I kept looking at it every turn and pretty much changed my mind every turn. What I logged, is what I ended up doing.

But I think the key thing is that the turn before growth, it works as many high-commerce tiles as it can, seeing as we get the shields but not the cash when it grows.

If we can spare the cash, I'd like to see Akichi and Ao make galleys instead of wealth once they finish their current builds. Building galleys might force us to drop science another notch, but we need contacts ASAP. Contacts will (should) drop our tech prices.

CB said:

Sailing all the way to Pink Dot gets us there two turns faster than unloading into Ao and walking to Pink Dot.

Click to expand...

But will that get our galley too far out of position to ferry the next settler we build?

Also, let's make sure there is a warrior escort for the settler going to the Pink Dot.