RBTS6 - Finally Ready for Noble!
- Thread starter Sullla
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darrelljs
Immortal
Looking good so far...Nationalism next is probably not a bad idea. I had the Guilds/Banking line prior to Nationalism since it has a direct boost to our economy, but Nationalism isn't a bad next step to leave the Machinery trade open. Not sure what we would give up for it though...we should trade Philosophy until we are darn sure we have Liberalism locked down (or it ceases to become a monopoly tech). The only trade I see likely short term is a Machinery <-> Feudalism swap, but I don't know what the AIs are thinking.
Darrell
Darrell
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
OK, I am up and should be able to play tonight. I liked the tech plan and suggested build order listed by Zeviz on the last page. One thing that I plan on changing is the location of the final city on the north coast. I think it's better to move that dot one north (as it was located in our previous dotmaps) to gain access to more water tiles. This is worth giving up settling on the plains hile tile, IMO. I like the two suggested spots on the west coast, that's pretty much where I was thinking too. 
Compromise
Emperor
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Nice turns Zeviz. And thank you for pointing out some of my :weed: builds. I forgot to point out that my point in building the spy was to fortify him in Poverty Point in the hopes of catching some of Joao's spies. While we're on the hunt for Liberalism, we don't want him stealing our techs. (Maybe those are too expensive for him to try now though. I'm not sure. It's been a while since we've had an encounter with any of his spies.)
I can hardly believe we're #1 in GNP. Largely due to the Lighthouse/Colossus combo, I think.
Looking forward to seeing how Sullla moves things forward. I agree with his assessment in the preceding post.
I can hardly believe we're #1 in GNP. Largely due to the Lighthouse/Colossus combo, I think.
Looking forward to seeing how Sullla moves things forward. I agree with his assessment in the preceding post.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
(0) 1050AD I'm pretty happy with the way things look right now. Again, I can't emphasize enough how much better things are than they were about 100 turns ago, when we looked completely lost. One thing I do want to stress is getting some culture into more of these new cities. That means queuing up some more missionaries in our developed cities when we get the chance. Since we just planted a whole lot of new cities over the past two dozen turns, I think we can dial down expansion for a little bit to let these fledgling settlements grow. I don't expect to found any cities on my turn beyond the one settler that's already close to its destination.
(1) 1060AD Gibbon tells us we are the wealthiest civ in the world, nice.
(2) 1070AD Mound City finishes an archer; I consider several different choices before opting to stick with another archer, since Chaco Canyon is off military duty at the moment.
(4) 1090AD Wang will trade us Horseback Riding, Construction, 120g, and his world map for either Civil Service or Philosophy. I still don't think that's a good idea from our perspective, so I hold off on any deals. It may be worth discussing, however. (If either Wang or Joao were to pick up Civil Service/Philosophy, it would clearly be time to pull the trigger with the other one.)
(5) 1100AD Wang has now picked up Feudalism, which he isn't willing to trade yet.
(6) 1110AD Poverty Point finishes its theatre, I tentatively select a courthouse here. This is definitely open to veto, just not really sure what to build here. We can use the cost-cutting and extra espionage points.
Hinduism is successfully spread by our missionary in Snaketown (Taoist holy city). Nacogdoches is founded on the north coast next to the clams.
(7) 1120AD Get this message for about the third time:
Seriously, why does this message play in Beyond the Sword? What in the world kind of claim would Korea have on this city?!
I'm pretty sure this is a bug that no one was able to pick up on...
Hinduism spreads on its own in Spiro, one of the west coast cities. That's one missionary we don't have to build!
(8) 1130AD Capital forge -> market. We need the gold, and maybe we'll even be able to land a shrine here from the specialist in Chaco. We should probably whip the courthouse in Poverty Point, but since my turn is almost over, I'll leave that up for group discussion.
(9) 1140AD Wang finishes the Sistine Chapel:
My, my - lots and lots of nice wonders showing up on our continent. How... fortunate for us.
Also another indicator that the other continent is likely behind us in tech, just what we want.
(10) 1150AD Aha! My diligent checking with Wang Kon on the trading screen EVERY turn has paid off! He's been offering us everything he had for both Philosophy and Civil Service over and over again, but on this turn he's no longer willing to kick in his world map and gold for Civil Service. This means that Wang is researching the tech, so if we want to get max trade value for it, the time to move is right now. Therefore, I make the best deal possible: Civil Service to Wang for Horseback Riding + Construction + world map. Keep an eye on Joao for the possibility to send him Civil Service as well for some other tech.
That's all for now. We pop our Great Person in Chaco next turn, with 32% odds for a Prophet. So we'll probably get a Great Engineer; any thoughts on a possible wonder to rush with it? That might be more effective than merging him as a super-specialist. We have two missionaries in production, and the two cities that need them most are Mesa Verge and Sakae, the icy twins. Even though it will be a long trek, I recommend sending them there. Otherwise, I'd keep going with our slow push towards Nationalism and developing our coastal economy. I think our position is about as good as possible at this point.
darrelljs is up, save attached to this post.
(1) 1060AD Gibbon tells us we are the wealthiest civ in the world, nice.
(2) 1070AD Mound City finishes an archer; I consider several different choices before opting to stick with another archer, since Chaco Canyon is off military duty at the moment.
(4) 1090AD Wang will trade us Horseback Riding, Construction, 120g, and his world map for either Civil Service or Philosophy. I still don't think that's a good idea from our perspective, so I hold off on any deals. It may be worth discussing, however. (If either Wang or Joao were to pick up Civil Service/Philosophy, it would clearly be time to pull the trigger with the other one.)
(5) 1100AD Wang has now picked up Feudalism, which he isn't willing to trade yet.
(6) 1110AD Poverty Point finishes its theatre, I tentatively select a courthouse here. This is definitely open to veto, just not really sure what to build here. We can use the cost-cutting and extra espionage points.
Hinduism is successfully spread by our missionary in Snaketown (Taoist holy city). Nacogdoches is founded on the north coast next to the clams.
(7) 1120AD Get this message for about the third time:
Seriously, why does this message play in Beyond the Sword? What in the world kind of claim would Korea have on this city?!
I'm pretty sure this is a bug that no one was able to pick up on...Hinduism spreads on its own in Spiro, one of the west coast cities. That's one missionary we don't have to build!
(8) 1130AD Capital forge -> market. We need the gold, and maybe we'll even be able to land a shrine here from the specialist in Chaco. We should probably whip the courthouse in Poverty Point, but since my turn is almost over, I'll leave that up for group discussion.
(9) 1140AD Wang finishes the Sistine Chapel:
My, my - lots and lots of nice wonders showing up on our continent. How... fortunate for us.
Also another indicator that the other continent is likely behind us in tech, just what we want.(10) 1150AD Aha! My diligent checking with Wang Kon on the trading screen EVERY turn has paid off! He's been offering us everything he had for both Philosophy and Civil Service over and over again, but on this turn he's no longer willing to kick in his world map and gold for Civil Service. This means that Wang is researching the tech, so if we want to get max trade value for it, the time to move is right now. Therefore, I make the best deal possible: Civil Service to Wang for Horseback Riding + Construction + world map. Keep an eye on Joao for the possibility to send him Civil Service as well for some other tech.
That's all for now. We pop our Great Person in Chaco next turn, with 32% odds for a Prophet. So we'll probably get a Great Engineer; any thoughts on a possible wonder to rush with it? That might be more effective than merging him as a super-specialist. We have two missionaries in production, and the two cities that need them most are Mesa Verge and Sakae, the icy twins. Even though it will be a long trek, I recommend sending them there. Otherwise, I'd keep going with our slow push towards Nationalism and developing our coastal economy. I think our position is about as good as possible at this point.
darrelljs is up, save attached to this post.
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darrelljs
Immortal
Things continue to look up...I think we should merge the GE if we get one, that is 4.5 Hammers and 10.5 beakers per turn. Once we get a University and Oxford, that jumps to 18 beakers per turn. I can't think of any wonder coming up that would equal this. I'll be playing in about 24 hours, I'll see if I can keep up the tech trading coolness and work towards Nationalism. I'll also try and lay out a roadmap for Oxford.
Darrell
Darrell
Things are looking good, although I would continue to produce settlers until our continent is filled. (We have no immediately beneficial economic techs left after education, so temporarily dropping slider below 50% while new cities start up shouldn't be a problem.) I'd suggest continually training at least one Settler somewhere.
What about saving GE for Taj Mahal?
What about saving GE for Taj Mahal?
darrelljs
Immortal
Okay, I start off by checking our Library situation. Three cities have 'em, and the ability to get Universities out. We need three more. After some noodling, Chaco Canyon, Khoisan and Mesa Verde are the best bet. It is still going to be a while before they have Universities though 
. What else is worth mentioning? Cahokia has time to finish its Market and build a Hindu Temple before growing, which is good because it is at the happy cap. Not sure if Sulla timed that out, but it is a good thing. So, I hit enter.
(1) Mound City finishes its Hindu Missionary. It is unhealthy and has four foreign trade routes. I debate between Heroic Epic and Harbor, but decide to go with Harbor in case there is a strong opinion against HE here. A Great Engineer is born. Nuts. My gut feeling was that the settled specialist would be better than the Taj Mahal, but since Zeviz mentioned it I feel obliged to run the numbers. So, I add up all the commerce and hammer tiles we have and find out (after doing a quick WB to verify the city tile gets the benefit...it does) that settling would pass GA in hammers after 120 turns, and in beakers after 152 turns. Our cities are growing, so these numbers are likely to go up...way up. So the Taj Mahal is better than settling. The Great Engineer stays where he is. The Granary in Khoisan can be whipped, so I go ahead and do that.
(2) That jerk Joao steals Literature from us
. Ah well, at least his EPs are going down. I do the math on Library vs. Courthouse in Khoisan, and Library easily wins, so that is the next build. I notice Poverty Point is unhealthy (and would also get 4 commerce/turn from a Harbor). I swore I queued one up for whipping, but I didn't 
. Compromise, please queue a Harbor and whip it in Poverty Point.
(3) We get a quest:
Technically, we can't complete this quest since the Horse is on the river, and there is no way we would raze the Apostolic Palace. Note what Joao is researching. I've been watching this one for a while, even dialed research back a bit in case we needed some cash.
(4) Fuedalsim is in, and since Wang Kon already has it we can trade Civil Service for it...Joao even tosses in a 20 gold sweetner. Unfortunately he adopts Vassalage. Still no WHEOOHN, but that's generally not a good sign.
(5) Wang Kon adopts Bureacracy. A Great Scientist is BIAFAL. Education in, Nationalism selected next. Due in 22.
(6) IBT, Wang Kon demands Philosophy. Sigh. Tough decision, but I decline to hand it over. We pick up a -1 penalty, we are now net +1. Wang Kon also gets a Great Merchant this turn. I whip the Granary in Snaketown. Our Missionary FINALY makes it down to Mesa Verde. That town is clearly marked as an Archer factory. I could whip the Barracks now, but we are one pop away from being able to whip a Forge. I go ahead and pass on it, the Forge will be useful. Khoisan's borders pop and I debate swapping a Coast for a Grassland Forest, but stick with the Colossus enhanced commerce. ANOTHER Great General is BIAFAL
.
(7) Same Math on Snaketown, and again a Library clearly wins out over a Courthouse.
(8) We get a Great Scientist in Cahokia; I settle him. The Market completes (man those Great Merchants really pull in the cash). I order up a Hindu Temple since growth is in 9 turns, and we are at the happy cap. After that I strongly suggest we put the National Epic in Cahokia. It is only 9 turns, and this city will be making all of our Great Persons for the rest of the game. Ack, what's this:
Ugly! I world build it out. Note to everyone, when the roads get close to Joao it is possible to see what is going on in his cities. I saw something I shouldn't, but I can guarantee it won't impact the outcome of this game.
(9) I note in passing that Wang Kon will give us Calendar + Map + 660 Gold for Philosophy. I don't take the deal of course.
(10) And that's it. A Missionary is finally near Sakae:
That Granary has been whippable for three turns, but the OR bonus was close so I delayed it. As soon as you get the spread, go ahead and whip. The circled tile used to have a forest, that is the second time I've let a chop complete fellows. I suck at pre-chopping I should just ignore the Workers during my turnset. That's it...so the four recommendations I have are:
1. Queue up a Harbor Poverty Point and then whip it next turn.
2. Build National Epic in Cahokia when the Temple completes (two turns), then fire two Plains Forests and hire two Scientists (food neutral, at the happy cap, and ripping out Beakers like there is no tomorrow). We might want to build a University and/or Settler (I really wanted to train one Zeviz, but we needed Missionaries in the worst way) before hiring the Scientists.
3. Mound City finished its Harbor (now has 12 commerce income!). It has enough food to get the last Ocean tile and one Plains Forest. It is the perfect spot for the Heroic Epic, I went ahead and promoted our unit to CR3 and queued it up here. Any objections?
4. Once Mesa Verde grows again, queue up a Forge and whip it with the overflow going into the Barracks. Then, I believe, we can whip units every now and then (not Archers though, we have Feudalism).
Darrell
. What else is worth mentioning? Cahokia has time to finish its Market and build a Hindu Temple before growing, which is good because it is at the happy cap. Not sure if Sulla timed that out, but it is a good thing. So, I hit enter.(1) Mound City finishes its Hindu Missionary. It is unhealthy and has four foreign trade routes. I debate between Heroic Epic and Harbor, but decide to go with Harbor in case there is a strong opinion against HE here. A Great Engineer is born
. Nuts. My gut feeling was that the settled specialist would be better than the Taj Mahal, but since Zeviz mentioned it I feel obliged to run the numbers. So, I add up all the commerce and hammer tiles we have and find out (after doing a quick WB to verify the city tile gets the benefit...it does) that settling would pass GA in hammers after 120 turns, and in beakers after 152 turns. Our cities are growing, so these numbers are likely to go up...way up. So the Taj Mahal is better than settling. The Great Engineer stays where he is. The Granary in Khoisan can be whipped, so I go ahead and do that.(2) That jerk Joao steals Literature from us
. Ah well, at least his EPs are going down. I do the math on Library vs. Courthouse in Khoisan, and Library easily wins, so that is the next build. I notice Poverty Point is unhealthy (and would also get 4 commerce/turn from a Harbor). I swore I queued one up for whipping, but I didn't . Compromise, please queue a Harbor and whip it in Poverty Point.(3) We get a quest:
Technically, we can't complete this quest since the Horse is on the river, and there is no way we would raze the Apostolic Palace. Note what Joao is researching. I've been watching this one for a while, even dialed research back a bit in case we needed some cash.
(4) Fuedalsim is in, and since Wang Kon already has it we can trade Civil Service for it...Joao even tosses in a 20 gold sweetner
. Unfortunately he adopts Vassalage. Still no WHEOOHN, but that's generally not a good sign.(5) Wang Kon adopts Bureacracy. A Great Scientist is BIAFAL. Education in, Nationalism selected next. Due in 22.
(6) IBT, Wang Kon demands Philosophy. Sigh. Tough decision, but I decline to hand it over. We pick up a -1 penalty, we are now net +1. Wang Kon also gets a Great Merchant this turn. I whip the Granary in Snaketown. Our Missionary FINALY makes it down to Mesa Verde. That town is clearly marked as an Archer factory. I could whip the Barracks now, but we are one pop away from being able to whip a Forge. I go ahead and pass on it, the Forge will be useful. Khoisan's borders pop and I debate swapping a Coast for a Grassland Forest, but stick with the Colossus enhanced commerce. ANOTHER Great General is BIAFAL
.(7) Same Math on Snaketown, and again a Library clearly wins out over a Courthouse.
(8) We get a Great Scientist in Cahokia; I settle him. The Market completes (man those Great Merchants really pull in the cash). I order up a Hindu Temple since growth is in 9 turns, and we are at the happy cap. After that I strongly suggest we put the National Epic in Cahokia. It is only 9 turns, and this city will be making all of our Great Persons for the rest of the game. Ack, what's this:
Ugly! I world build it out. Note to everyone, when the roads get close to Joao it is possible to see what is going on in his cities. I saw something I shouldn't, but I can guarantee it won't impact the outcome of this game.
(9) I note in passing that Wang Kon will give us Calendar + Map + 660 Gold for Philosophy. I don't take the deal of course.
(10) And that's it. A Missionary is finally near Sakae:
That Granary has been whippable for three turns, but the OR bonus was close so I delayed it. As soon as you get the spread, go ahead and whip. The circled tile used to have a forest, that is the second time I've let a chop complete fellows
. I suck at pre-chopping I should just ignore the Workers during my turnset. That's it...so the four recommendations I have are:1. Queue up a Harbor Poverty Point and then whip it next turn.
2. Build National Epic in Cahokia when the Temple completes (two turns), then fire two Plains Forests and hire two Scientists (food neutral, at the happy cap, and ripping out Beakers like there is no tomorrow). We might want to build a University and/or Settler (I really wanted to train one Zeviz, but we needed Missionaries in the worst way) before hiring the Scientists.
3. Mound City finished its Harbor (now has 12 commerce income!). It has enough food to get the last Ocean tile and one Plains Forest. It is the perfect spot for the Heroic Epic, I went ahead and promoted our unit to CR3 and queued it up here. Any objections?
4. Once Mesa Verde grows again, queue up a Forge and whip it with the overflow going into the Barracks. Then, I believe, we can whip units every now and then (not Archers though, we have Feudalism).
Darrell
r_rolo1
King of myself
lurker's comment:
Not that the reward is
....
That is not true.... The resource check for the greed quest happens before the start of the playble Human turn..... so it would check positive even before you could raze it after flipping to your territory ( this assumes that you didn't pillaged it during the war ,OFC )
Not that the reward is
....This is 4 HA for you
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lurker's comment:
This is 4 HA for you
lurker's comment:
Now they will come with zero XP....
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
I thought that looked like a pretty good turnset. I hadn't really thought about getting moving on libraries in our newer cities, but with universities/Oxford in mind, we clearly need to start them sooner rather than later. Good call. 
Sounds right. We're getting rather dependant on some of those seafood resources though; what's going to happen when we conquer Wang/Joao? Better make sure to grab the Hanging Gardens and settle on some more health resources!
Not much disagreement here either. Cahokia is absolutely the right location for the National Epic, and there's no reason to delay it any longer. Keep that specialist economy cranking along. (Note that our beaker rate is climbing steadily even as we continue to sit at 50% science.)
Nope! We definitely want a coastal city for the Heroic Epic, cause we're going to need a lot of ships down the road. Anyone who doesn't know the Sirian Doctrine yet will be familiar with it by the end of this game.
How about whipping some catapults? Remember, we can draft maces/mustkets/rifles, but we can't draft siege units. Something to keep in mind for the future. We also should probably research Machinery next if the AIs don't pick it up for us. The sooner we can start the draft train rolling along, the better. (As strange as it may seem, we're only about 25 turns away from military security, and maybe 50 away from military dominance. Wouldn't have thought that back in 100AD!)
Sounds right. We're getting rather dependant on some of those seafood resources though; what's going to happen when we conquer Wang/Joao? Better make sure to grab the Hanging Gardens and settle on some more health resources!
Not much disagreement here either. Cahokia is absolutely the right location for the National Epic, and there's no reason to delay it any longer. Keep that specialist economy cranking along. (Note that our beaker rate is climbing steadily even as we continue to sit at 50% science.)
Nope! We definitely want a coastal city for the Heroic Epic, cause we're going to need a lot of ships down the road. Anyone who doesn't know the Sirian Doctrine yet will be familiar with it by the end of this game.
How about whipping some catapults? Remember, we can draft maces/mustkets/rifles, but we can't draft siege units. Something to keep in mind for the future. We also should probably research Machinery next if the AIs don't pick it up for us. The sooner we can start the draft train rolling along, the better. (As strange as it may seem, we're only about 25 turns away from military security, and maybe 50 away from military dominance. Wouldn't have thought that back in 100AD!
)Compromise
Emperor
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Quick question: when we hire two specialists in Cahokia, do we want to make one of them a priest? At least then there's some small chance of a Great Pro(f)it. I don't remember if there's a temple there yet or not.
I plan to play late tonight or some time tomorrow.
I plan to play late tonight or some time tomorrow.
darrelljs
Immortal
Yes, I built a Temple during my last turnset. I think hiring a Priest and an Engineer is the way to go.
Darrell
darrelljs
Immortal
It occurs to me that Cahokia (especially with a settled GE) will have enough hammers to slow build the Taj Mahal since we have access to Marble. I am starting to think we *should* settle him, but the problem is it will tie up our capital for dozens of turns.
Darrell
Darrell
Everything looks good so far.
About Taj Mahal, how long would it take to build it manually? (Given that we have Marble, Forge, and are running Org Rel.) It might make sense to settle the engineer and run priest and engineer, instead of two scientists. (I agree with running priest+engineer anyway, because we need production more than science.) My suggestion to use GE for Taj Mahal was an idea, rather than a firm preference.
The only objection I have is that we aren't training enough settlers. We have no military to build and no immediate economic techs on horizon, so this is the perfect time for Settler spam. (Or do I have to start a settler in every city at the start of my turnset?)
Also, we should start building/whipping Universities now that we have Education.
About Taj Mahal, how long would it take to build it manually? (Given that we have Marble, Forge, and are running Org Rel.) It might make sense to settle the engineer and run priest and engineer, instead of two scientists. (I agree with running priest+engineer anyway, because we need production more than science.) My suggestion to use GE for Taj Mahal was an idea, rather than a firm preference.
The only objection I have is that we aren't training enough settlers. We have no military to build and no immediate economic techs on horizon, so this is the perfect time for Settler spam. (Or do I have to start a settler in every city at the start of my turnset?
)Also, we should start building/whipping Universities now that we have Education.
Compromise
Emperor
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This sounds like my marching orders. Plus more settlers. And libraries. And universities.
And I do want to get Sullla's input on the Cahokia specialist plan since he originally called for 2 scientists and Darrell and Zeviz have both suggested priest+engineer instead.
We're still following the dotmap plan in this post, right?
I should be able to whip this out fairly early tomorrow. And I will try to make sure that there are no settlers or archers in the queue so that Zeviz can start them all up.
No.
As far as I understand, everybody agreed to the adjusted plan:
with the change that the site#5 is moved 1 or 2 spots up to better utilize coastal tiles. (The main change is addition of two high priority cities near the capital. Their priority is high because maintenance will be low and they'll have forests for chopping lighthouses to get a jumpstart on the growth curve.)Plan for Zeviz's turnset: whip 2 Settlers from the capital and 4 archers from Mound City....
And I will try to make sure that there are no settlers or archers in the queue so that Zeviz can start them all up.
darrelljs
Immortal
Plan for Zeviz's turnset: whip 2 Settlers from the capital and 4 archers from Mound City.
You picked the two cities that shouldn't be whipped
.Darrell
darrelljs
Immortal
I did a fast calc...I believe with the settled GE we are pulling 14 hammers/turn in Cahokia. We get 150% bonus building the Taj Mahal, so that is 35 hammers/turn. On Epic, the Taj Mahal is 1050 hammers. So, we need to compare the GE benefits to the opportunity cost of tying up our capital for 30 turns.
Darrell
Darrell
Compromise
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