Immortal Univesity VI: Carolus Magnus of the Holy Roman Empire

Tough start. I've just had an axe rush go spectacularly wrong (13 axes dead and no cities captured), but I can't see a better way of playing the early game here.

Boxed in by an aggressive creative REXer like Sury, there doesn't seem to be any alternative. Maybe settling Prague to get copper in the first ring would allow a slightly quicker attack? The slightly gamey rerun approach of settling the capital 1N to get the copper is an alternative, but based on the starting screenshot and scout location I'd never have done that.

The tech pace in my game was just insane too - Joao got alphabet in about 1400BC

4000 BC: I settle in place, didn't ponder this one at all, three food resources and marble and lots of grassland, excellent starting spot. In hindsight it would have been better to settle on the marble though as futurehermit suggested, but only if I looked at the worldbuilder to see that that would have netted an extra corn.
I decide to delay building a worker since I have no worker techs and starting directly on a worker would mean alot of downtime. I start working the corn and building a scout while I tech agriculture. The corn is going to give +6 food with one citizen working it, the same surplus food that 2 citizens would get from working the 2 clams. Also, 2 fishing boats takes a long time to build and then you have to wait for a worker to get some production. I think going for Agriculture first is the best move here.

3760 BC: Meet Sury the turn after I see the edges of his borders, he's close. I pop a hut for 40 gold.

3680 BC: Determine exact location of Sury's capital, he's only 10 spaces away! Micro my city to get exact food for growing to pop 2 then maximize hammers which means..

3640 BC: Scout finishes 1 turn earlier, start on worker.

3600 BC: Agriculture finished, start on Mining. Sury is close and I'll 99% certain to rush him if possible so I want BW asap. In fact, I would probably have gone for BW asap anyway since it's just the best early tech period. My scouts reveals that we are probably blocked by Sury so let's pray for copper!
Hinduism founded in distand land.

3440 BC: Buddhism founded in distant land. Sury adopts slavery, damn that's fast.

3280 BC: Mining finished start on BW.

3160 BC: Worker finished, start on warrior. Worker moves to irrigate corn. After that is finished I move him to the marble to buld a mine.

2960 BC: I discover my first mistake, Sury gets his second border pop, denying my scout access to the lands to his east and north if I'd moved there one turn earlier with the scout instead of perfecting my scouting close to the capital I would have gotten past.

2760 BC: Worker finishes mine on marble and moves on top of a forest. BW is 4 turns away so I only lose 3 worker turns in total, that's acceptable. The Great Wall completed in distant lands, that was quick, someone might have stone in their BFC.

2720 BC: Warrior 1 & 2 finished, start on settler. The first warrior moved north to fogbust.

2600 BC: Finish BW, discover that copper is close! Start on The Wheel.



I decide to settle 1S of cows as Aachen will get it's 2nd border pop to claim the copper and corn which means I wont have to bother with a monument in my second city. Sury built Angkor Tom a few turns earlier on top of the gold, that will have to be razed later.

2480 BC: Settler finishes, start on worker.



2400 BC: Effing barb archer threatens my expansion so I halt my settler for a turn hoping he'll move off. If I settle right beside him he'll attack and my warrior has low odds of defending the city with no culture or fortification bonuses.

2360 BC: Some luck! The barbarian moves north and I settle Prague.



The barb archer is now 1 space outside my cultural borders which is a big difference to him being inside it as it's still to early for him to be allowed to move inside my borders and hence he's deleted from the game (I think).
Prague starts directly on a barracks since it needs no culture pop as explained above. I finish the worker in Aachen and starts on barracks their as well.

2280 BC: I gain intel on Sury telling me he's researching IW. This tells me two things. One, he probably has contact with another civ since I got intel so fast. Two, he's probably missed getting copper since he's going for IW already despite not having much jungle to clear. This is excellent news.

2240 BC: Finish The Wheel start on AH (for Prague's cows).

2200 BC: Aachen finish barracks starts on another warrior to fogbust some more.

2120 BC: Aachen finishes warrior, has 1 turn left to grow to size 5 so I build Stonehenge for some money, then switch to worker the next turn.

2040 BC: Stonhenge built in distant lands. I cash in 10 gold.

2000 BC: Aachen gets its second border pop, workers starts to mine the copper.



1880 BC: Finish AH, start on Fishing. Finish barracks in Prague and the third worker in Aachen and start building axemen in both cities.

1760 BC: I continue building axes, Judaism founded in distant lands.

1680 BC: Finish fishing, start on Pottery. Sury is done with IW around this time.

1560 BC: So you want to hear some stories of early Mids?



Yeah, probably stone in someones BFC, maybe stone+ industrous.

1480 BC: Revolt to slavery to whip the last units. Workers have been busy chopping forests.

1360 BC: I have the possiblity to snag two workers and kill an archer protecting a settler in open lands. I ponder early dow but decide that the settler might actually do something useful for me and build a city in the spot I want on the west coast. Also I don't need more workers right now and my economy is going down the drain.

1320 BC: Sury patrols borders with an axeman. I guess he got some iron.

1240 BC: Leaving the settler pays off as Sury builds Nagara Jayasri exactly where I hoped he would. Discover swordsman in Angkor Tom so Sury's got iron indeed.

1160 BC: Dow and move in with 9 axemen and 2 spears.



I also snag the worker by Angkor Tom.

1120 BC: I reach the capital and is a little disheartened.



1 axe 1 sword and 2 archers, also on the SW hill he's got 1 axe and 2 archers for a total of 7 troops to my 9 this could be a disaster.

1080 BC: Christianity founded in distant lands. The Oracle built in distant lands. For some reason Sury decides to move the troops outside his capital away from it rather than reinforce it. Thanks, I guess. I have some luck with the attack only losing 3 axes. I keep the city. Nothing special in it, just a granary.



1040 BC: Finish Pottery, start on Writing, start building some cottages. Also discover what must be an iron mine on the plains WNW of Angkor Tom and move to pillage.

My troops are healing up in the captured city, I suppose moving north might be the next move to ensure there are no strategic resources there for Sury to utilize. He has two axeman wandering around to the SW and SE of the captured city as well as two swordsmen in Angkor Tom and several spare archers all of which I need to keep an eye on. I got a large bounty from his capital so I can spam troops for a while still.

Well finding that copper was a sigh of relief, this is quite a nasty start. It will be interesting to see how those who went fishing first are going to cope.

Here goes...

Silverbullet's idea about forgoing the seafood is interesting but after consideration I have to go for fishing for the commerce. If we are going for the oracle I really think tech is more important than hammers right now. The spot looks great and I am in no way inclined to move the settler.

Opening techs were:
Fish-->Mines-->BW-->Poly-->PH-->Wheel-->Pottery
Opening builds were: warrior(partial)-->WB-->WB-->warrior(finish)-->worker-->warrior

3840BC - popped 32 gold from a hut.
3760BC - meet Sury, find his borders a couple turns later. It looks like an axe rush for sure. Can I still do oracle?
3440BC - Sury switches to slavery - did he pop BW from a hut?
3200BC - meet HC
2880BC - BW is in, immediate revolt, whip worker next turn for 2 pop. (I feel like my timing is really locked in here.)
1800BC - Oracle is in same turn as pottery and I take MC. Until the turn before I was actually working 1F, 2C ocean tiles. All the forests meant hammers were no problem but I was real worried about missing it due to slow tech pace.


Here's where I get a little silly. I whip a forge and start running an engineer while building/chopping axes. Crazy? Perhaps. We will find out.

725BC I DoW Sury w/11 axes and head north.
And in 850 BC I get...

A GE! (at about 50% odds)

and a few turns later (I still had to tech masonry because I really didn't think this would work)...


So in 575BC the mids are in. I revolt to Rep and settle a GG I got from attacking Sury's capital.
The next turn I take Sury's capital. (He had killed a pile of my axes and I was worried about taking it but then he abandoned the city the next turn! Stupid, stupid Sury.)


I also took this:


Here's a shot of my upstart empire:


And here is a shot of the distressing tech situation:


So I consider it a successful if tenuous start and I definitely need advice.

Q's:

1) How much further should I push this war? My Axe rush has bogged down and I will need to regroup but reinforcements should be doable. The city just to my north looks like an easy/necessary target but the one Sury idiotically founded on the gold to the north will be a hassle. I can't even see where his iron is yet. I am thinking about bleeding him for techs in a peace treaty or two before he can get feudalism and vassal to his religious buddy HC.

2) I am really unsure how to proceed diplomatically. I feel like I have little choice but to trade with Joao (possibly for IW to find Sury's iron) even though I hate unloading MC to a tech beast so early. What about switching to Hindu for improved relations with HC? This seems dumb but how long until Joao's Judaism spreads to me?
Edit: I just looked at the religion screen and realized Judaism is 30% of the world and I don't know where it is founded. Who else has Joao met? This is a big question and makes me worried. Maybe I will hold out for Judaism though. They sound like the club all the cool kids are joining.

3) Economically, I am thinking about a pretty full-on SE. Does anyone see a good Bureaucracy capital if I were to make my capital a GP farm? Sury's old capital looks like a great IW city to me so maybe there. Let's see if any of the cottage-lovers can talk me into them.

4) Long term, I am thinking medieval LK war against HC leading into absolute military belligerency on my continent supported by Rathaus's. I briefly considered bulbing machinery with my GE but couldn't pass up the mids. Someone said "screw machinery" earlier but don't we need that for engineering to unlock LK's? With the mids and a forge perhaps bulbing machinery is still an option.

Thanks again to Silverbullet for hosting. Advice from anyone, expert or Immortal student like me, is appreciated. I, as always, reserve the right to ignore it all and take my own crazy/disastrous path.

Research: fishing->mining->bw->wheel->agriculture->AH->??

Settled in place, research fishing, build warrior.
3840 - we meet Sury

Poped fishing from a hut at least better than a map.
Switch research to mining, start workboat.

3680 - we find the Khmer border:

Very close... I hope we can rush him or else we will be boxed in.

3480:Mining -> bronze working. Aachen: Workboat->worker.

3200: meet huayna capac and he is hindu founder.

3040: meeting Joao, luckily Sury settle his 2nd city north.
2920: bronze working done, agriculture next
revolt to slavery.

Complete the warrior in Aachen and build a settler at size 3.

2440 - Prague founded


Ready to hook the copper. Animal husbandry done.

Empire status 1380 BC:




Wonders: GW and stonehenge built by Joao.

I plan to go for pottery->writing next, unless someone will come up with a suggestion not to do it.

So you opted for fish as well, eh? I almost went for ag first and I was kinda hoping you would do it so we could compare. For an early rush it might still have been the best play. I was just thinking oracle at the time.
It looks like you are doing ok to me. Just build/chop axes like crazy and wail on Sury. My rush went in late because of wonder silliness but the earlier the better I'm sure. I assume by your teching that you have given up on the oracle. I got the idea from you but I took it in 1800BC so it is probably too late. Have you started building axes yet? I figure they are your (and everybody's) only option.

What do you think about diplo? I am waiting for help on this myself so my only advice is axes. I traded settlers for wonders and let Sury build my cities for me. I think you are in a good position to own him though. Both your cities can build axes pretty quickly. Just chop, whip, chop.
Good luck with the war!

How many axes do you have atm? Sucks bigtime that we've got a one dimensional start like this again but at least we learn how to plan and execute our early rushes to precision. I'd build/chop as many axes as you can and wipe Sury of the map, then the tedious process of recovery will begin again. Be sure to research at least writing before the rush.

Edit: i see copper hasn't been hooked up yet so no axes. If i read the screenshot correctly it's the overview of your empire 1880 BC instead of 1380 BC?

I think I could have planned the rush better - I could have settle on the gold instead of the copper - my capital popped the 3rd border before Prague popped it's 2nd border, so I didn't really need to place prague there. I could have gotten a happy resource and more commerce to support a larger army.

At this point my economy is already crashing and I think i will get a strike situation if I march with my SOD out the cultural borders.

Sury has had a chance to build a respectable defence, and he settled in the wrong place
Ideally I would raze this city and build it 1S or 1N.
I could also build my own gold city before the rush hoping to get some money out of it.
I also started building 2 cottages, because I already need them to support my 10 axes and 1 spear.

I am starting to think that the game is either lost or at least going to be very very difficult because of my settling mistake for prague.

Maybe I should build a settler now and settle it here before the rush.


Finances:

As far as I understand the mechanics, if I have more population I can support a larger army before unit costs kick in (NOW I see why charismatic great ).

I decide to settle in place and start off building a scout first whilst teching fishing. Hut popping bought me a scout and a map so no help there although I did find HC and Joao's lands before my scouts met there maker.

Obviously with Sury close and no real room to expand it would be a case of attack. The question being what with? So techs path went AH, no horses was hoping for a very early chariot rush. Mining, BW the Wheel and Sailing. Not learnt much for 3500 years study.

I hit even more problems early on.



Sury settled really close early. Even worse so did the barbs on the West side although there is a plus point now.

Well the plan was to attack Sury but he had other ideas.



Seemed like he wanted to attack me. No chance of his stack going for the barb city so obviously coming my way. Once they were adjacent to my borders I attacked, lost a couple of axes but defeated his units. I usually use CR promotions but I'm intending to use C1, Shock as you can see from the next screenshot.



Unusual to see an AI city without archers this early. I will be promoting my next axes along the CR line though. Now I've got the problem of facing a prolonged war so things not looking good at all. I'll have to see how it goes from here but not feeling very optomistic. At least I get double points for GG so I should have an early Woodsmen 3 healer from upgrading my warrior, I'm going to need him sooner rather than later.

As my abortive spoiler above suggested, I took an early stab at this yesterday and came a cropper. I'd settled in place, settled Prague 1S of the cows and attempted an axe rush on Sury, declaring on him in 900BC with a stack of 13 axes, all of which died assaulting his capital, prompting me to resign from that game.

This being my second shot at the map, I knew I was going to have to rush Sury with a pile of axes, and knew I was going to have to do so ASAP, which meant I was able to play the early turns a bit more effectively.

I tried not to deviate too far from the path I'd followed first time around, settling in place and researching:

agriculture > mining > bronze > wheel > AH > fishing > writing (partly done)

while building:

warrior/worker/warrior/settler/worker/barracks (stonehenge until copper was online), followed by axe after axe. I got the preparation done slightly quicker this time around, and by 1080BC it was time to pay Sury a visit:



My stack of 11 axes razed a size 1 city he'd built on the border a couple of turns earlier that was defended by a solitary spear. They then pressed on to the capital, while a couple of reinforcements a turn behind went to pillage his iron mine by Angkor Thom. Then the RNG decided to have a bit of fun at my expense:



A visit from Atilla the Hun's what I get for starting this game again. Both my cities had finished an axe that turn, and I wasn't in slavery so couldn't get any spears built before the capital got attacked.

Needless to say, the following turn:



I'd diverted a couple of axes heading north when I saw the Barbarian attack and they were able to recapture Aachen the following turn, putting an end to the barbarian threat, but it's thrown a spanner into the works in a war that's been going much better than my first try.



An axe in Sury's capital that didn't want to die made taking it an expensive business, but I've got 10 axes in there ready to press on with the war next turn. I'm planning on heading north to eliminate his cities in that direction, before doubling-back to eliminate him by razing Angkor Thom (something that'll obliterate most of my remaining troops since it's on a hill with walls).

One interesting point the early loss of my capital has thrown up is that its location has been moved "free of charge" so I'm in reasonable shape to chop the Great Library there and turn Aachen into a GP farm if I can get to Aesthetics in time.

initial tech path was agriculture -> mining -> BW -> wheel
i ignored fishing for a long time and just chopped out two settlers and an army at double quick time
first city:



2 gold and food!!! i just had to beeline this one. notice how little i beat alien's settler by! however that settler went onto settle my next priority so my second settler went to this spot:



good production initially. will probably get Moai eventually and be a fishing village/production.

so i chopped out an army of axemen (and boy do i mean chopped) and invaded. i took out the city which his settler seen earlier had founded (angkor thom) which was in a perfect position. i healed and marched onwards to the capital and took that at the end of the turnset in 775BC. a view of the empire:



so i feel like i'm in a great position to either solidify and beeline CoL or push on in the war. thoughts?

That's impressive speed to get 3 cities and all those axes out by 1120BC! Did you use the whip at all?

I'm never sure if it's worth it or not. I know Mutineer was a big fan of 2-pop whips to get an axe rush going, but is that the best way when you've got a low happy cap and high production cities?

I'd be inclined to press on with the war in your position. Sury's still got 4 cities and will cause you serious cultural/unhappiness problems in Yasodharapura (which is otherwise a terrific production city) if you leave him be now. You've still got enough axes to take 1-2 more cities quite easily if you keep going.

The other thing to consider is that you've got -1 from Huayna for declaring on a friend already. Running HR/sharing a religion, he's easy to befriend, but it may be worth avoiding building up too many negatives with him.