Good unit to summon as Svartalfar

JeffSteel · Jun 21, 2008

Fisrt of all, I'm a long time lurker, first time poster, who thinks quite highly of this mod and the work its team has put into it.

Anywho, I was curious as to which of the summonable units (the various elementals, specters, etc.) make the best use of the "illusion" promotion that comes with anything the svartalfar mages summon. A few things I have noticed are that air elementals cant spawn lightning elementals from attacking anyone, since they cant kill, and that mistforms dont work well defensively since they are invisible. Any thoughts, or recommendations?

Pyr0mancer · Jun 21, 2008

Mistforms are mostly for pillaging neighbors during peacetime for lots of :gold:

, not good as a combat summon.

I was thinking maybe Fire Elementals, for collateral damage, but quite honestly the Illusion promotion is worse than normal summons, since most summons are Elemental anyway and therefore are already immune to death/poison/whatever. When I'm Svartalfar my archmages usually just end up being Domination/Mistform/Metamagic, where Mistform I just use during peace for :gold:

, Metamagic to help Domination succeed, and Domination as the primary wartime spell.

Ecofarm · Jun 22, 2008

Assuming you get the best spell in the game, domination, that leaves one more mana at tier 3. I prefer mists over fire for a few reasons.

1) You have the mana in palace.
2) The gold from pillaging is cheater because svart is raider.
3) You do not need to summon fodder because Alazkan and his mirror assure 4 kills per turn and you will have a couple nice assassins (don't forget a couple rangers for defense). With domination, no (AI) city takes more than 3-4 turns.

Use any additional nodes for needed counters:

Life sanctify, Spirit courage, Law loyalty to counter charm (valor is nice as well), Haste!, maelstrom, etc

JeffSteel · Jun 22, 2008

Yeah, haste and regeration have proved useful under Esus since you dont get any preist under that religion, and recon units are already rather mobile. My laste game I messed around with grafting dominated units into illusionary flesh golomes. Thinking about it now its actually kinda hard to imagine how that would work. :lol:

DuckAndCower · Jun 23, 2008

The grafted units only think they're grafted to a flesh golem. Makes for a rather awkward scene if the illusion is dispelled

Ecofarm said:
Assuming you get the best spell in the game, domination, that leaves one more mana at tier 3.

Domination can only really be considered the best spell in the game if you also invest in lots of Metamagic, or if you're a big fan of saving and reloading.

Oh, and I thought that the perk of the Illusions was that they set up your arcane units for easy kills, thereby generating easy exp.

Ecofarm · Jun 23, 2008

DuckAndCower said:
Domination can only really be considered the best spell in the game if you also invest in lots of Metamagic, or if you're a big fan of saving and reloading.

Oh, and I thought that the perk of the Illusions was that they set up your arcane units for easy kills, thereby generating easy exp.

I don't reload, even if I lose a hero (I replace Alazkan with a few assassins who follow mistform attacks, perhaps with maelstrom or chalid).

Domination doesn't fail often. Each archmage should be able to regain it 2-3 times over the course of finishing the game and mistform cash allows you to cashrush any size army you desire almost instantly. If an archmage gets to the point that he will not get xp to regain domination, delete him (he only has mind 2, shadow 3, mobility) and upgrade a mage.

Any mundane units you dominate serve as fodder to give other units xp.

Pyr0mancer · Jun 23, 2008

DuckAndCower said:
Domination can only really be considered the best spell in the game if you also invest in lots of Metamagic, or if you're a big fan of saving and reloading.

Oh, and I thought that the perk of the Illusions was that they set up your arcane units for easy kills, thereby generating easy exp.

Eh, Arcane + Channeling III + Tower of Alteration = -30% chance of resist, I believe. Arcane is -10%, Tower is -10%, and I THINK Channeling II and III are each -5%. Metamagic III is another -30%, for a total of -60%, meaning you'll fail maybe once or twice per caster.

If you don't bother with Metamagic, then your archmages are low enough XP that just the free XP from Arcane should be enough to regain Mind III it a few times.

The thing is, you need to have another sphere anyway, unless you stick Extension or Combat on your mages. Adept takes 4 promotions to make level 4, and mage takes another 4 to make level 6, so: Mobility, Mind, Shadow, (something), Mind II, Shadow II, (something), (something). For me, I usually have 2 shadow mana (Palace + Nox Noctis), and 2-3 mind mana (Palace + nodes) so I just get Metamagic and some other random sphere (usually Death).

I hadn't thought about that aspect of Illusions, that's a good point. What are they limited to, 80%?

DuckAndCower · Jun 23, 2008

I'm pretty sure I read in the Civilopedia that it's 90%, but I'm not completely sure.

I've learned a bunch of tricks for running Mind mana here. Tempted to go start up a new game to play with it a bit

Ksi · Jun 23, 2008

I'd have to agree with Ecofarm, mists are excellent with raider and domination (and the whole mind sphere imo) are spectacular.

Ecofarm · Jun 23, 2008

Pyr0mancer said:
Eh, Arcane + Channeling III + Tower of Alteration = -30% chance of resist, I believe. Arcane is -10%, Tower is -10%, and I THINK Channeling II and III are each -5%. Metamagic III is another -30%, for a total of -60%, meaning you'll fail maybe once or twice per caster.

If you don't bother with Metamagic, then your archmages are low enough XP that just the free XP from Arcane should be enough to regain Mind III it a few times.

Point being, you don't fail much because it is level based IIRC and getting back a couple times is easy. Especially arcane channeling3. I've dominated heroes plenty (you get to keep the civ ones, and the religious ones if you are that religion).

The thing is, you need to have another sphere anyway, unless you stick Extension or Combat on your mages. Adept takes 4 promotions to make level 4, and mage takes another 4 to make level 6, so: Mobility, Mind, Shadow, (something), Mind II, Shadow II, (something), (something). For me, I usually have 2 shadow mana (Palace + Nox Noctis), and 2-3 mind mana (Palace + nodes) so I just get Metamagic and some other random sphere (usually Death).

Mind 3, Shadow 3, Mobility 1 = Level 8 (free from mage and free from archmage = level 6 = 26xp) Mobility is importnat for the mists.
If wanted: Nature 3 (vitalize) Body 3 (+1 mana = body for haste)

I hadn't thought about that aspect of Illusions, that's a good point. What are they limited to, 80%?

90%

The problem with Alazkan: When there is an adept or hero you want to get a command chance at with, say, chalid, you have to stop killing the enemy stack from the bottom up and kill it top-down, otherwise an assassin kills it. I guess if you are going for domination, you must forgoe chalid or it will require ~turn 190 quickspeed anyway.

If empy would spread when your empire was large enough (happy resources) to run without guardian and you came upon enemy Chalid with your new archmages... that would be a perfect game (I think he would leave you if in anarchy, so careful). But getting a node for maelstrom is easier and consistant.

My 2 svart strats =

1) No reagents (or want early strike): FoL, Empy, Poison, Construction if horses, Military, Handling, Chalid, Arches. Quick speed turn 120-140 Chalid, Alaz, 2 Rangers (defense), 3 Assassins. Turn never arches.

2) Otherwise: FoL, Hidden, Ether, Poison, Sorcery, Arcane (for crown and promo/level), Handling, Military, Archmages. Turn 140-170 arches, alaz, rangers, assassins, mages.

Adding blind to the mix (raiding radiants or flanking rathas) is much fun. Just don't forget to dominate before charming and blinding; it's annoying when dominated fodder must be deleted because they are charmed or out of moves.

Side note: The pinnacle of domination is Yvain and 4 druids doing it from peaks (move 4) and summoning pit beasts. With command on the druids (and a few nature nodes?), there is no better 5 unit combo in the game. Feeding Sphener and Paladins is #2. Both are late as hell, Bals due to restricted leaders/align change and Calabim because order and righteous take forever.

Zechnophobe · Jun 23, 2008

I'm also not sold on Domination as the Strongest spell in the game. It has an Amazing effect, but it isn't necessarily faster than a good few others. Air Elementals with a point of mobility can really kill fastly, while giving you a bit of fodder to defend towns with.

Perhaps, 'per cast' Domination is better, but Strong summons are pretty darn effective at winning a game in a short amount of time.

Course, Air Elementals are terrible for Svart

.

slowcar · Jun 24, 2008

Zechnophobe said:
Perhaps, 'per cast' Domination is better, but Strong summons are pretty darn effective at winning a game in a short amount of time.

in my experience you need highly promoted units (or heroes) to win a game. i like domination a lot better as you can remove highly promoted defenders instead of giving them more xp with some summons.

Darksaber1 · Jun 24, 2008

Yes, but can the AI promote in your turn? If not then a lot of fodder works, provided you kill the unit that turn.

DuckAndCower · Jun 24, 2008

Yeah, if you're taking a city by throwing fodder at it, you have to make sure to take it in one turn. Otherwise, you're just making the defenders stronger.

Pyr0mancer · Jun 25, 2008

Much easier to Blitzkrieg with Domination than summons. No need to worry about leaving defenders behind in your new city, since the old ones are working for you now.

I much prefer Domination when assaulting cities, since as mentioned it removes their strongest defenders and gives them to you. Also, stealing the odd civ-hero is always fun. Oh and finally, Domination lets you bypass national unit limits, so late-game you can have a ridiculous number of paladins/druids/crossbowmen/phalanxes.

My usual Domination force consists of 4 archmages with Enchantment/Mind III, a haste adept/mage, and some guards. March up to the city walls, steal 8 (usually that's all) defenders, march defenders back into the city, move on

.

Ecofarm · Jun 30, 2008

Mind3, Shadow3, Enhancement2, Mobility1

Accept no substitute

Pyr0mancer · Jun 30, 2008

Actually... now I rather prefer Wonder for my Svartalfar-summoning needs. Permanent Illusions are amazing defenders, since they heal 100% after every win. So far the only permanents I've gotten are Treants and Flesh Golems.

JeffSteel · Jun 30, 2008

Forgive my ineptitude, but what is "Wonder"?

MagisterCultuum · Jun 30, 2008

Wonder is the new Chaos III spell. It does from 3 to 5 of a possible 63 effects.

Code:

def spellWonder(caster):
	iCount = CyGame().getSorenRandNum(3, "Wonder") + 3
	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(caster.getOwner())
	pPlot = caster.plot()
	bCity = False
	point = pPlot.getPoint()
	if pPlot.isCity():
		bCity = True
	for i in range (iCount):
		iRnd = CyGame().getSorenRandNum(63, "Wonder")
		if iRnd == 0:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_BLAZE'))
		if iRnd == 1:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_BLESS'))
		if iRnd == 2:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_BLINDING_LIGHT'))
		if iRnd == 3:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_BLOOM'))
		if iRnd == 4:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_BLUR'))
		if iRnd == 5:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_CHARM_PERSON'))
		if iRnd == 6:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_CONTAGION'))
		if iRnd == 7:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_COURAGE'))
		if iRnd == 8:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_CRUSH'))
		if iRnd == 9:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_DESTROY_UNDEAD'))
		if iRnd == 10:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_DISPEL_MAGIC'))
		if iRnd == 11:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_EARTHQUAKE'))
		if iRnd == 12:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_ENCHANTED_BLADE'))
		if iRnd == 13:
			CyEngine().triggerEffect(gc.getInfoTypeForString('EFFECT_SPELL1'),point)
			CyAudioGame().Play3DSound("AS3D_SPELL_DEFILE",point.x,point.y,point.z)
			for iX in range(pPlot.getX()-1, pPlot.getX()+2, 1):
				for iY in range(pPlot.getY()-1, pPlot.getY()+2, 1):
					pLoopPlot = CyMap().plot(iX,iY)
					if pLoopPlot.isNone() == False:
						pLoopPlot.changePlotCounter(100)
		if iRnd == 14:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_ENTANGLE'))
		if iRnd == 15:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_ESCAPE'))
		if iRnd == 16:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_FIREBALL'))
		if iRnd == 17:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_FLAMING_ARROWS'))
		if iRnd == 18:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_FLOATING_EYE'))
		if iRnd == 19:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_HASTE'))
		if iRnd == 20:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_HASTURS_RAZOR'))
		if iRnd == 21:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_HEAL'))
		if iRnd == 22:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_HIDE'))
		if iRnd == 23:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_LOYALTY'))
		if iRnd == 24:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_MAELSTROM'))
		if iRnd == 25:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_MORALE'))
		if iRnd == 26:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_MUTATION'))
		if iRnd == 27:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_PILLAR_OF_FIRE'))
		if iRnd == 28:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_POISONED_BLADE'))
		if iRnd == 29:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_REVELATION'))
		if iRnd == 30:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_RING_OF_FLAMES'))
		if iRnd == 31:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_RUST'))
		if iRnd == 32:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SANCTIFY'))
		if iRnd == 33:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SCORCH'))
		if iRnd == 34:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SHADOWWALK'))
		if iRnd == 35:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SPORES'))
		if iRnd == 36:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SPRING'))
		if iRnd == 37:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_STONESKIN'))
		if iRnd == 38:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_AIR_ELEMENTAL'))
		if iRnd == 39:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_AUREALIS'))
		if iRnd == 40:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_BALOR'))
		if iRnd == 41:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_DJINN'))
		if iRnd == 42:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_EARTH_ELEMENTAL'))
		if iRnd == 43:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_EINHERJAR'))
		if iRnd == 44:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_FIRE_ELEMENTAL'))
		if iRnd == 45:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_KRAKEN'))
		if iRnd == 46:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_MISTFORM'))
		if iRnd == 47:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_PIT_BEAST'))
		if iRnd == 48:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_SAND_LION'))
		if iRnd == 49:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_SPECTRE'))
		if iRnd == 50:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_TIGER'))
		if iRnd == 51:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_TREANT'))
		if iRnd == 52:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_WATER_ELEMENTAL'))
		if iRnd == 53:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_WRAITH'))
		if iRnd == 54:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_TSUNAMI'))
		if iRnd == 55:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_VALOR'))
		if iRnd == 56:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_VITALIZE'))
		if iRnd == 57:
			caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_WITHER'))
		if iRnd == 58:
			if bCity == False:
				pPlot.setImprovementType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('IMPROVEMENT_PENGUINS'))
				CyInterface().addMessage(caster.getOwner(),True,25,CyTranslator().getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_WONDER_PENGUINS", ()),'',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Improvements/Penguins.dds',ColorTypes(8),pPlot.getX(),pPlot.getY(),True,True)
		if iRnd == 59:
			if bCity == False:
				pPlot.setImprovementType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('IMPROVEMENT_MUSHROOMS'))
				CyInterface().addMessage(caster.getOwner(),True,25,CyTranslator().getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_WONDER_MUSHROOMS", ()),'',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Improvements/Mushrooms.dds',ColorTypes(8),pPlot.getX(),pPlot.getY(),True,True)
		if iRnd == 60:
			for iProm in range(gc.getNumPromotionInfos()):
				if caster.isHasPromotion(iProm):
					if gc.getPromotionInfo(iProm).isRace():
						caster.setHasPromotion(iProm, False)
			caster.setUnitArtStyleType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ARTSTYLE_BABOON'))
			CyInterface().addMessage(caster.getOwner(),True,25,CyTranslator().getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_WONDER_BABOON", ()),'',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Units/Margalard.dds',ColorTypes(8),pPlot.getX(),pPlot.getY(),True,True)
		if iRnd == 61:
			CyEngine().triggerEffect(gc.getInfoTypeForString('EFFECT_SPELL1'),point)
			CyAudioGame().Play3DSound("AS3D_SPELL_SANCTIFY",point.x,point.y,point.z)
			for iX in range(pPlot.getX()-2, pPlot.getX()+3, 1):
				for iY in range(pPlot.getY()-2, pPlot.getY()+3, 1):
					pLoopPlot = CyMap().plot(iX,iY)
					if pLoopPlot.isNone() == False:
						pLoopPlot.changePlotCounter(-100)
		if iRnd == 62:
			newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_SPIDERKIN'), pPlot.getX(), pPlot.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_SOUTH)
			CyInterface().addMessage(caster.getOwner(),True,25,CyTranslator().getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_WONDER_SPIDERKIN", ()),'',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Units/Spiderkin.dds',ColorTypes(8),pPlot.getX(),pPlot.getY(),True,True)
			newUnit.setDuration(3)

JeffSteel · Jun 30, 2008

Oh, its from the newest patch. I'm still waiting for Fall Further to update, so havent installed patch H or I yet. Thank you for the clarification.

Good unit to summon as Svartalfar

Warlord

Prince

Deity

Warlord

Warlord

Deity

Prince

Warlord

Warlord

Deity

Strategy Lich

King

Secret Emperor

Warlord

Prince

Deity

Prince

Warlord

Great Sage

Warlord

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