The world at your feet

The scene is 1780's France. While fighting a fairly successful campaign against the Romans to the east, the Zulus land a massive attack force from the west. My last save was the autosave of 1750. If I go back, I can defend my western flank and be ready for the sneak attack from the west. Loading the game from Civil4.xxx, I noticed something was wrong. The auto save happens before the city check of 1750. When you load the game from the auto save, you don't go through the city check. The harvest of 1750 was lost. That had been a big harvest for France, one that I wasn't willing to give up, so I went back to an earlier save and played through to 1750. When I was just about ready for the 1752 harvest, I saved the game in Civil3 and copied Civil3 to Civil4 so I'd have a game in the auto save slot that included the harvest of 1750. When I tested the Civil4 save, I had a surprise. Naturally, I had the results of the 1750 harvest, but all my units had all their movement points. I thought I had moved those guys before I saved. So I tried again. I moved all my units, saved to 3, copied to 4 and tried the test again. The units definitely got all their movement points restored. This is just like the scenario described in Civ1 Cheats as "Save Game II". But the cheat description doesn't mention the fact that you have to copy from a manual save slot to an auto save slot to make it work. At least that's the only way I've been able to get the trick to work in Version 475.04.

With a couple more tests, I found that the trick works any time, not just in an auto save year. You can copy from any save slot in 0-3 to any save slot in 4-9. When you load from the copied files, it's Groundhog Day. You can live it over as many times as you want.

Now, if you start a new game knowing this trick, it's like you have the world at your feet. It is 3980 (you can't save in 4000) and you have your first settler. It can go anywhere on the continent. No one else has had time to build their first militia.

Most of the games I've played since that lost French harvest of 1750 have explored the question: What would you do?

What a find! I could never make sense of that "cheat" and assumed it applied to v1 only. Now autosaves have a use instead of being effectively worthless unless one is desperate to salvage a failing game.

The implications of this trick far outreach mere conquest. Previously, my only "military" was a sole Trireme (which became a Frigate by the time it was actually built) and ~4 Calvary from huts. Now I need three less Calvary (maybe even none at all). I can probably traverse about 40% of the tech tree in the first (well, second) turn. I need only one Settler to terraform an entire continent. I can insta-build cities with premature infrastructure. Building a Trireme/Sail/Frigate to reach the Americas is a problem when switching to Democracy too soon (inside two turns?)...but maybe I have a shot at Industrialization for Transports with huts alone...

As tedious as constantly saving and reloading is (but less so with batch files), plotting will actually be faster as I needn't evaluate 80+ Settler actions every mid-game turn when I can brute force all needed work with one unit.

Well, I think my game in progress is about totally obsolete. The biggest problem will be with DOSBox crashing upon every fifth load. That's a real time killer for me. I should probably generate maps until I determine which one generates the most huts on the Asia super continent since that's all that matters now.

Whelkman said:

Building a Trireme/Sail/Frigate to reach the Americas is a problem when switching to Democracy too soon (inside two turns.

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No matter when you start the revolution, anarchy ends and you get democracy in 3920. May as well hold off the revolt til 3940. No need for pyramids any more.

Triremes can cross the open ocean now. Two steps - save - repeat. And you can always have them "home by midnight".

3920 is a hard limit for Democracy and/or changing governments? If so it'd be more worthwhile switching in 3920 and "zero turning" the revolution. I could never build Pyramids before discovering Democracy, anyway, even when I was reasonably "honest".

Same with Triremes: I start construction the instant I acquire Mapmaking, which is one of my earliest advances...right after Monarchy, I think. However, Frigates are available by the time it's ready for launch. That is a neat and dirty trick, though. The CPU has it coming after all those years of invulnerable Triremes. ...And I guess I need Monarchy no more!

I push for industrialization before magnetism. Transports don't have to get home before city check. Frigates never even appear on the menu.

I'm forty-two percent sure that all you have to do is reload a save and the movement points are at full again.

trada said:

I'm forty-two percent sure that all you have to do is reload a save and the movement points are at full again.

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This is what the "cheat" file says--and it may be this way on some version--but, in revisions 4 and 5, one must move the save to one of the autosave slots as Valen describes. Simply saving and loading with a regular slot behaves as one expects.

Interesting discovery.

Unfortunately I feel I have to rain on your parade here, for is there really any difference between doing this and using TerraForm? You have to rename the save file outside the program, which is third-party manipulation of the game/save files and their structure. So it's definitely not an in-game bug/feature/exploit. It's actually hacking much in the same way as TerraForm. If you're going to rename the save file(s) outside Civilization you may as well edit them directly. Not sure if I can accept this "technique" for my "no-hacking games" (in which I still use the settler "cheat", city sentry "cheat", etc). If you could manually save to slots 4-9 from within the game (as a feature) it would be totally acceptable. But you can't.

Somewhere you have to draw the line between blatant hacking and the exploitation of bugs and game behavior (such as the UI and AI). MicroProse most likely did not protect against this "exploit" because it's impossible to replicate from the game itself. Just because a hack is simple doesn't mean it's not a a hack. And trying to protect against save-game manipulation is just ridiculous (you're wasting time on something that's bound to be hacked/cracked anyway).

It's a tough call. In favor of this trick is that it does not involve directly editing game binaries, which is traditionally viewed by all as being over the line. The tools used here are for input replacement, which means everything done is still within the realm of normal playing. I place this trick in the same class as hut and battle manipulation, both also done "outside" the game. The only difference is that this trick is exponentially more powerful, to the point where one might as well be directly in charge of game variables.

Whelkman said:

It's a tough call. In favor of this trick is that it does not involve directly editing game binaries, which is traditionally viewed by all as being over the line. The tools used here are for input replacement, which means everything done is still within the realm of normal playing. I place this trick in the same class as hut and battle manipulation, both also done "outside" the game. The only difference is that this trick is exponentially more powerful, to the point where one might as well be directly in charge of game variables.

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It's definitely gray area. However placing it along with the "reload 'cheat'" (I think that's what you mean by "hut and battle manipulation") is making it far too easy on yourself.

First of all I think we can agree that the savegames are part of the game's file/data structure.



The "the world at your feet" cheat involves external manipulation of the game's file/data structure, not allowed by, available from within or possible at all using the game.

Saving and loading, on the other hand, is. (Nothing happening outside the game's code is altering any game data or data/file structures at all.) It was even implemented with the intention of being used. Abusing it is entirely possible (and as the random seed isn't fixed, it can even be seen as sort of encouraged?) without any external manipulation involved at all. The game remains intact. It's all done from within the game. A restart? Yes, but no external manipulation of the game's file/data structure was done, ever.

However, a manually saved game can never ever in any way be saved to Slots 4 through 9 (like it can in Civ2). As they're reserved exclusively for auto-saves only (and this was obviously intentional looking at the actual implementation of the loading code, not that intention really matters). And manual saves can never ever be loaded like auto-saves just like auto-saves can never ever be loaded like manual saves without external alterations/manipulation of the game's file/data structure. That is, it can't be done from within the facilities of the game/game environment.

Doing "TWAYF" you are effectively forcing the game, via external "input replacement", incorrect and illegal data that the game then misinterprets into your favor. If the rules were in a separate file (like in Civ2) you might as well change the rules using your external "input replacement" technique.

If you counter by saying "but the input given is still output from the game", well you can hack a hex editor from within the hex editor as well. Or to go back to CivDOS, you could for example start mixing SVE and MAP files, giving you a map with railroads at 3980 BC, you were just engaging in some external "input replacement"... Logically you're actually hex editing your auto-save at SLOT 4 to an exact match of your manual save at SLOT 0 (never possible by the game).

Moreover, in case of reloading to get the most favorable outcome all the time you are still getting a result that was entirely possible to get to begin with, it could have happened and was supported by the game engine and rule set. You just made yourself become "lucky", throwing all sixes. The "TWAYF" cheat can never happen at all within the game (in Risk the attacker can throw three sixes, but never four fives, in Texas Hold 'Em you can be dealt two aces, but never three jacks). It is impossible without any external manipulation (via third-party programs, such as MS-DOS). "TWAYF" produces results impossible by the game itself.

On a side note, external/third party manipulation of input data is considered hacking within many game environments (even if they produce results), such as World Of Warcraft (farm bots).

It's because of your programming experience that the distinction seems blurred, but I maintain that simple file copying is a far cry from hex editing. One is an action anyone can do and the other is something the majority won't attempt even with explicit instruction. One involves an external program or, heaven help us, DOS DEBUG and the other uses a base command everyone is familiar with. Even if one doesn't wish to directly manipulate the game, copying to autosave slots is a legit way of pole vaulting over the woefully inadequate four game limit normally available. The extra moves would merely be a side effect in this instance. Given that normal autosaving erases the last turn's production, the feature is useless to begin with.

You're also not assigning enough blame to Microprose. To compromise, I play with v5 to eliminate some of the more extreme game-breaking tools. That Microprose could not eliminate even the most casual errors in five revisions speaks volumes of their QA department. They couldn't even lessen the impact of the most major bug with Instant Advice, which is what prompted them to go for five revisions in the first place. Blizzard is a poor example in that they're arguably beyond excessive with regards to QA. StarCraft, over a decade old, has been patched through 2008. That's insane!

Your best argument is comparing this trick with normal luck manipulations that are possible within the game, but this doesn't get you out of fast settler, sentry-move, zero turn ocean railing, and the like.

krille said:

Interesting discovery.

... is there really any difference between doing this and using TerraForm? ...

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The TWAYF game bears little resemblance to Civ. The removal of movement restriction assures that. But it isn't TerraForm.
The initial settler may be able to build roads to every square on the home continent in 3980, but he is restricted to the home continent and he can only build one city. I haven't seen TerraForm in action, but I strongly doubt that it has any such restrictions.
You still go through the motions of exploring the world even though the game clock isn't ticking. TWAYF is simply a different game with its own challenges - namely how fast can you build a maxed-out Civilization.

Whelkman said:

It's because of your programming experience that the distinction seems blurred, but I maintain that simple file copying is a far cry from hex editing. One is an action anyone can do and the other is something the majority won't attempt even with explicit instruction. One involves an external program or, heaven help us, DOS DEBUG and the other uses a base command everyone is familiar with. Even if one doesn't wish to directly manipulate the game, copying to autosave slots is a legit way of pole vaulting over the woefully inadequate four game limit normally available. The extra moves would merely be a side effect in this instance. Given that normal autosaving erases the last turn's production, the feature is useless to begin with.

You're also not assigning enough blame to Microprose. To compromise, I play with v5 to eliminate some of the more extreme game-breaking tools. That Microprose could not eliminate even the most casual errors in five revisions speaks volumes of their QA department. They couldn't even lessen the impact of the most major bug with Instant Advice, which is what prompted them to go for five revisions in the first place. Blizzard is a poor example in that they're arguably beyond excessive with regards to QA. StarCraft, over a decade old, has been patched through 2008. That's insane!

Your best argument is comparing this trick with normal luck manipulations that are possible within the game, but this doesn't get you out of fast settler, sentry-move, zero turn ocean railing, and the like.

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Hacking has nothing to do with how advanced or commonplace a technique is. Guessing someone's password is hacking, even though most of us have probably attempted this (and often with great success!).

Whether ordinary people actually do this on a regular bases is irrelevant. It's still external compromisation of the game environment. No other cheat brought up in this thread does, including the settler cheats and sentry cheats, as they're performed solely within the game without the need for external manipulation (already explained this in my above post). The settler and sentry cheats exploit and abuse the game's rules and implementation, but still adhere to them.

Valen said:

The TWAYF game bears little resemblance to Civ. The removal of movement restriction assures that. But it isn't TerraForm.
The initial settler may be able to build roads to every square on the home continent in 3980, but he is restricted to the home continent and he can only build one city. I haven't seen TerraForm in action, but I strongly doubt that it has any such restrictions.
You still go through the motions of exploring the world even though the game clock isn't ticking. TWAYF is simply a different game with its own challenges - namely how fast can you build a maxed-out Civilization.

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I do agree TWAYF is not identical to TerraForm, but it's the same basic principle based on external manipulation of the game's file/data structure, beyond the control of the game. If that's not hacking, I don't know what to call it. The external shuffling of game files in order to advantage the player is clearly hacking in my book.

People have tried substituting game models, such as in Counter-Strike, that don't even change the rules of the game, just make the player models of the different teams stand out more (Green vs Red models), this is hacking. Your bat file is still hacking as it's external (third party) manipulation of the game.

If you still don't acknowledge "TWAYF" as hacking, I can't really "help" you further. But, at least don't go posting any high-scores achieved this way as "legit". (I maintain the position that using the settler cheat, sentry cheat, reload cheat, etc is perfectly legit and even required to stay competitive, unless otherwise explicitly specified within the rules of the specific "contest", they clearly aren't hacks. In my book they're not even cheats at all because they weren't intended as such, merely abuse of weaknesses in the game).

At least any other users/members here now have an alternative, unbiased opinion on "TWAYF" upon discovering this thread. (Unbiased as I've never once used or been in contact with "TWAYF" myself.) Which is always good.

Now, let me end this by saying, I will employ this/test this for myself, as it's a very interesting discovery. But I don't think I'll use it for more than the occasional experimental game (just like I use TerraForm to make games more "interesting" every now and then). And while doing it I will admit to being a lousy hacker.

Your argument is thin to the end of absurdity. You are perhaps the only person on the planet to place a simple file copy in the same realm as assembly level reverse engineering. You play both sides of the argument by claiming one save-reload trick compromises the game environment while the other does not. You seem hypocritical when you advocate the addition of "auto rails for power gamers" to TerraForm yet condemn the use of a trick that requires no specialized tools.

Try as you may, you are not the sole authority on what constitutes a competitive Civ game and are in no position to label and question the legitimacy of games other than your own. To claim your opinion as "unbiased" when you have no experience with the topic at hand is laughable.

Whelkman said:

Your argument is thin to the end of absurdity. You are perhaps the only person on the planet to place a simple file copy in the same realm as assembly level reverse engineering. You play both sides of the argument by claiming one save-reload trick compromises the game environment while the other does not. You seem hypocritical when you advocate the addition of "auto rails for power gamers" to TerraForm yet condemn the use of a trick that requires no specialized tools.

Try as you may, you are not the sole authority on what constitutes a competitive Civ game and are in no position to label and question the legitimacy of games other than your own. To claim your opinion as "unbiased" when you have no experience with the topic at hand is laughable.

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Well, Whelkman, we will have to agree to disagree.

As for your post, the first paragraph is exclusively a combination of ignoratio elenchi, argumentum ad populum and falsities.

Let me clarify a few things:
* I don't condemn the use of "TWAYF", I simply consider it hacking and not a mere 'trick'. I don't contemn single-player hacking for non-competitive purposes in any way (I love hacking D&D RPGs, CivDOS, etc).
* I do consider using TerraForm for railroads within competitive settings as unacceptable. I would never post any scores achieved through this.
* Simply saving and reloading does not compromise the game environment as it does not involve external or third-party (those are the keywords) manipulation of ditto.

I know I'm hardly "the sole authority on what constitutes a competitive Civ game", again argumentum ad hominem (reverse argumentum ad verecundiam).

As for why my opinion is unbiased:
* I came into this thread without an opinion. I came to a conclusion after reading and assessing the information provided.
* I have no reason to defend "TWAYF" as a 'trick' as I've never used it and thus have no reason to defend my existing habits/ways. I don't risk losing anything.
* I have no reason to disregard it as a 'hack' on anything other than its own merits (I would personally even love such a trick to easily boost my own 'legit' high-scores considerably). I don't stand to gain anything by disregarding it as a hack.
* The only bias you have accused me of is, up until this point, is that of a programmer (although I'm currently studying, I have previously programmed as a profession). Claiming those insights leads to bias either way is ignoratio elenchi.

What's definitely absurd here is the use of argumentum ad hominem and ad hominem tu quoque. I don't want this to digress or deteriorate to the point of name-calling. There is no reason to become enemies and impair the good spirit of this board over it. So for that reason this will be my last post arguing whether "TWAYF" is a hack. If you wanted to rebuke my points you had that opportunity good and well in your previous post.

Have a good day, Whelkman.

Guide - "TWAYF" On Steroids
This is a guide to emulate/mimic the exact same end-results (you couldn't tell the difference at all), while saving you tons of time and effort spent saving the game and restarting Civilization:
1. This requires running Civilization in DosBox (or an equivalent DOS Emulator).
2. At 4000 BC, before moving your Settler, check "End Of Turn" in the options.
3. Open up ArtMoney and select the DosBox process.
4. Search for Exact value = 3, Type: Custom (Integer 1 byte), Adress range: Emulator, Game system: DOS, Emulator: Your DosBox version (I suggest DosBox 0.72). You'll find a bunch of results.
5. In DosBox, move your settler, don't hit enter (don't end your turn).
6. In ArtMoney, Filter using the value 0.
7. In DosBox, hit enter (end your turn).
8. In ArtMoney, Filter using the value 3.
9. In DosBox, move your Settler again, don't hit enter (don't end your turn).
10. In ArtMoney, Filter using the value 0.
11. Hopefully, you should only have one result remaining. This is the number of movement points you got left on your Settler. Set it to any number between 0 and 127 (it's a signed 1-byte integer). If you wish, freeze it at this number. The same technique can be used on any unit at any point in the game. (If you move the unit along roads, it can easily be done in one turn.)

This will save you much time and effort. I'm using it right now for my "TWAYF" game.

To speed up the Settler cheat
Tired of having to spam "Change to Plains" orders? Simply freeze the byte right after the Settler's MP to 50 (or any such value) and it'll finish any "terraform" action in just one order!

FAQ
Q: Why 3?
Because in reality it takes 3 MP to do a "1 MP move". Moving along a road takes 1 MP, not 1/3 MP (the graphical representation is deceptive).

Q: I hate searching, is there a specific offset?
Seems to differ...

Q: What about further limiting the Address range of the search in ArtMoney?
Seems to differ...

You are incorrect about my alleged use of ad hominem because I stick to countering your arguments. Any "names" called are backed with evidence from your own postings. You're bound to find my arguments as intellectually bankrupt as I find yours, but I maintain you've set a double standard for your convenience. I attack so aggressively because of your insistence to install your own vision as the sole correct playing method and the apparent lengths you'll go to quash anything that doesn't fit within the rules you've already established in your head. The hours you've spent in this thread implies that you do indeed care, for some reason, about how I play my games.

Whelkman said:

You are incorrect about my alleged use of ad hominem because I stick to countering your arguments. Any "names" called are backed with evidence from your own postings. You're bound to find my arguments as intellectually bankrupt as I find yours, but I maintain you've set a double standard for your convenience. I attack so aggressively because of your insistence to install your own vision as the sole correct playing method and the apparent lengths you'll go to quash anything that doesn't fit within the rules you've already established in your head. The hours you've spent in this thread implies that you do indeed care, for some reason, about how I play my games.

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Try to understand this once and for all: I don't care in the slightest how you play your games.

Quick proof of your use of ad hominem provided as a quote below (specifically ad hominem tu quoque). Whether the below quote is factually correct is irrelevant, it's ad hominem either way.

Whelkman said:

You seem hypocritical when you advocate the addition of "auto rails for power gamers" to TerraForm yet condemn the use of a trick that requires no specialized tools.

Click to expand...

Just noticed this:


To speed up the Settler cheat
Tired of having to spam "Change to Plains" orders? Simply freeze the byte right after the Settler's MP to 50 (or any such value) and it'll finish any "terraform" action in just one order!

Krille necro'd a thread to tell us he believes copying a file over is hacking because its an action which takes place outside of the game. He then went to explain, in many words, why this is true in, what I deem to be a needlessly, very elitist fashion.

Great Shaka! Not since I brought up metaphysics to explain how the AI uses Diplomats has a CivDos fanatic gone to so much trouble on resolving such a pointless issue. Krille, I salute you.

Of course, as I did point out in this thread back in 07, you don't need to copy a file over in order to reload your movement points. You just need to save/reload your game.. making this whole argument redundant.

Keep caring, traditional civ players!