new art in progress

Ok... I found it... And tho i am sure you don't really want to know...

They coded the information which offset coordinates from that list belong to which tree into the vertex color. On stuff like this you can really make peoples happy by documenting it somewhere, because it's a PITA to reverse engineer. Anyway...

I can now produce a road-cut and hill adjusted nif.

The question remains - what do we do with the sway ?

Look at the trees in the game to get a picture - it is not much, but it is a noticeable movement even when zoomed out... Will look ungood on ruines

Does someone remember if Jungle does sway ?
Edit: Yes it does...

I do not see a usefull tag in the XML either. Actually there is a "animated" tag. But it's already set to 0 on forest...

I dunno if this ever works, but is it possible for you to contact Kael or some folks who work at Firaxis, and get a little insight into what is really happening inside the engine we can't see?

Kael and most people i know here on the forums are quite forthcoming when it comes to questions... Unfortunately, from all i know we are ahead of the FFH mod here (Your discussion with Xienwolf should be more or less they technical stand)...

I don't really know how to contact Firaxis directly... Support request ? Are these even read by someone ?
I can perhaps drop a PM to Solver and Dale... Maybe one of them has the insight...

Still unless the documentation needed already exists, i wouldn't set the hopes to high... Creating it now will be probably to much hassle.

Do we have other things we want to know ?
So i can put everything in one bomb...

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There is another possible approach via LSystemPlot.xml - it can override the static art define with a dynamic reference. (Done so on cottages/villages/towns for example).

My investigation indicates that this can work on Bonuses and Improvements however not on Features.

But i might have missed somethig there.

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Over night i had a idea how to make ruins useable despite the sway...

If we add a "moving" effect on them, the movement of the effect will cover up the sway.
I am thinking of something similar to that wobbling fallot - but maybe much weaker and softer color - could be dustblow (Think Abandoned Cowboy Town)... Or perhaps "Baby Fallout" - we could also add -1 health, like the Jungle has, to Ruins because of "somewhat higher radiation levels" - not that unlogical - after all, something had to turn these cities into ruins first...

Ok, i made a few final tests to confirm my findings.

You can see it is properly cut and adjusted to terrain (hills)
I can make it cut on Depots and the like as well, but didn't bother so far (it would require to adjust the deport niffles).


Surprisingly i think the sway is not that bad. If you stop, do nothing and stare at the boxes you will clearly see it.

But i played a few turns and it was not niteceable at all under normal gameplay circumstances - there is allways something lese moving - be it a unit on top of it, the nearbye reiver/fallout or the map scrolling.

Also the sway seems to pause when you scroll map, and it takes a second or so for it to begin again after scrolling is done.

Attached the test setup so you can make you a picture in the game. It has of course a few flaws (other than the boxes beeing ugly) - mainly it's 15 times the same niffle so it reaches in neighbour plots...

I dont see a way to get Cutting without the sway (there is literally no more unidentified data left in the nif, so i am at the end of my means here).

I made a few more experiments on the LSystem, and i see my previous assessment confirmed: LSystem being only applicable if we make it Bonus or Improvement. Not feature.

I will fire up a few messages to peoples who might know, or have the means to find out, but i do not expect a lot to come out of it. Even if we get a answer - it's most probably not even in the SDK, as the .exe seem to handle most of the actuall "graphics stuff".

I will wait for you to take a look and decide how to proceed.
After trying a bit, i think we could live with the sway.

EDIT: Sorry, Forgot the file...

Well, that is great progress, and a secret which might be usable by other mods too. I'd rather not cover up the sway with some other effect.

I haven't been on cfc all that long, really, but I thought it was well known that a couple of posters got "famous" and then got hired by Firaxis -- no? I grant that just going to firaxis.com and posting a question might not get much reply, but I am sure there has been direct interaction between some cfc posters and real firaxis people.

What I am hoping is that there is an existing variable setting in the xml or L-system somewhere we can use, which cuts but doesn't sway. Since we are obviously breaking new ground with respect to what cfc people know, the only place to go is to firaxis itself.

EDIT: for example, tracing TILE_ART_TYPE_TREES in the C code, there is an enum TileArtTypes which also takes the value TILE_ART_TYPE_PLOT_TILING. Maybe that does something more interesting.

Refar said:

The idea is that most things the player want to find will stand out somehow - Resources could glow (many - like metals and minerals - have a glow effect by default), pastures farms and towns would have campfires and window lights. Units carry a environmental light source with them afaik, so they should stand out as well.

I can't of course be completely sure how it work out, but i think i will try to set up a experimental "night mod"

Click to expand...

I'm not a coder, but couldn't the same effect that Civ IV already uses to show the camp fire of goody huts, even a bit into the Fog of War be used? Plus, I always felt that cities that have power should really be brighter than those without.

As for having resources glow, I'm all for it! One problem I've had with Rise of Mankind is it's often easy to miss resources in forest or jungle squares.

I already tried all the different tilings and also looked up the related methods in the SDK. And also searched the SDK for LSystem refrences, confirming that LSystem is only of use on Bonuses or Improvements.
Basicly the SDK does not cover the inner workings of the games graphics engine - it handles the rules and the art defines, but passes the actual "painting" to other functions hidden in the exe or some other libraries.

I will ask Solver (he's the "famous People" you are refering to - i am not aware of others) and also Dale and Kael (who might have some connections as well).

But overall i am quite sure that this is the final state of this, simply because i dont see any reason - nor place - where that additional parameter we need would exist.

The way i see it (and a miracle-response from Firaxis pending) we have 3 options left:
- Keep using the ruins you use right now.
- Use ruins with TREES tiling. These will tile, cut on Roads, rivers and Stuff built on them (Depots, Salvage centers, ...). These will also sway, which we can just accept or try to "hide" with additional animation.
- Change Ruins to be Bonuses or Improvements, so we can approach them with the LSystem. Improvements might be simpler than bonuses (unless you can swithc the bonus once the Depots, Ammo, are revealed) - however in this case the ruins will be removed completely, once you improve the tile.

But, if we change ruins into improvements, then we cannot get the effect of the 15 different nifs to get curved edges. (I called this tiling but other people seem to use the word differently.) This post shows what I meant if there is confusion.

I'll have to think about whether "no sway" or "curved edges" is more important.

In related news, advancing eras would require a mixture of ruined and rebuilt buildings. A "rebuilt" building doesn't look like a ruined building before being ruined; it looks like something built out of the scraps. I'm not sure what that would be exactly. But the first era would be completely ruined, the second era would be half ruined and half rebuilt, and the third era would be half rebuilt and half regular modern buildings.

davidlallen said:

But, if we change ruins into improvements, then we cannot get the effect of the 15 different nifs to get curved edges. (I called this tiling but other people seem to use the word differently.) This post shows what I meant if there is confusion.

I'll have to think about whether "no sway" or "curved edges" is more important.

Click to expand...

Yes, i know what you mean. And it's not just me trying to be a PITA here. It's just from where i stand now it's technically impossible [to get that without the sway].
I think tiling (with curved edges) is worth the swaying... But it's a tough call.

I will put it a side a while, awaiting a possible response to my inquiries (which unfrotunately only has few chances to really help us) and/or you arriving at a definitive decision.

In related news, advancing eras would require a mixture of ruined and rebuilt buildings. A "rebuilt" building doesn't look like a ruined building before being ruined; it looks like something built out of the scraps. I'm not sure what that would be exactly. But the first era would be completely ruined, the second era would be half ruined and half rebuilt, and the third era would be half rebuilt and half regular modern buildings.

Click to expand...

Yes i was thinking about this - even had a short "chat" with GeoModder on how to make the mixing. In short - mixing 2 city sets, so we have some ruines along with some rebuilt buildings, is [more or less, as it involves messing with the LSystem] easily possible. We can't controll on the exact composition however, so some cities might have more ruines, while other will get more rebuilt stuff.
All in one not that bad.

I have so far no concept on the new rebuilt city set, that will be necessary, however.


Another thing - i only played very few on 0.9, so i am not sure - i think the Survivor Biker is in again ? Should i put rigging chuggies survivors on it back on the To-Do list ?

Refar said:

I think tiling (with curved edges) is worth the swaying... But it's a tough call.

Click to expand...

I'll give it some thought. I don't suppose there is a way to globally disable only the swaying? I'd give up swaying trees for tiled ruins.

I have so far no concept on the new rebuilt city set, that will be necessary, however.

Another thing - i only played very few on 0.9, so i am not sure - i think the Survivor Biker is in again ? Should i put rigging chuggies survivors on it back on the To-Do list ?

Click to expand...

Maybe there are some useful buildings among the other ancient, classical etc sets which might apply? Designing whole bunch of new buildings, just for this purpose, seems too much trouble.

I didn't put the survivor biker back in. I haven't designed a full set of UU, it might go there, but that is not at the top of the list right now.

In terms of new art, there are two LH "out there" but not finished, ekmek's Lord Humongous / Ironhead and C.Roland's woman / Debbie (Martha?). But, I'd really like to replace Tinker, or at least make his outfit less medieval. Something in a "junkyard dog" theme, no specific ideas. I was kind of interested in ekmek's new Andrew Jackson, maybe with a few scars or something ... I've got backgrounds to put him with.

Also from the art request post (#2 in this thread), the cargo truck and maybe a catapult which is not wood/stone, are at the top of the list.

... Off to figure out why my Sheaim civ keeps catching on fire, and see if I can get Hell Terrain.

davidlallen said:

I'll give it some thought. I don't suppose there is a way to globally disable only the swaying? I'd give up swaying trees for tiled ruins.

Click to expand...

I am afraid not. The bloody trees even keep swaying if you turn on "Frozen Anims"...

Maybe there are some useful buildings among the other ancient, classical etc sets which might apply? Designing whole bunch of new buildings, just for this purpose, seems too much trouble.

Click to expand...

Hmmm... i am not arare on something really usefull there... While EU-Ancient buildings (tiny, yellow, thatch roof) might be something people actually would use again, i think it would look odd.

Also from the art request post (#2 in this thread), the cargo truck and maybe a catapult which is not wood/stone, are at the top of the list.

Click to expand...

Oh yeah... the cargo truck... It's still on list

For the catapult - a gave it quite a lot of thought actually... And i have no idea how it would look like... Asking myself how i would built a Catpult in this scenatio, the answer was "i wouldn't"...

Wow, how did you get the rivers to cut through those buildings? Every game I play I see trees growing out of the river.

We had hopes of figuring it all out, but got stalled. Details are in the last few pages of this thread, also in this other thread, and a call for a final solution in this thread. We're *thisclose* to a solution but stuck.

Chuggi said:

Wow, how did you get the rivers to cut through those buildings? Every game I play I see trees growing out of the river.

Click to expand...

Do you have Modded Forests ?
Some Video Cards have trouble with Tree Cutting i.g. (It is related to people having trouble with trees floating around, or disappearing below the surface on some hardware...)

For short we know now how to make trees cut on Rivers/Roads/Buildings... but it's suboptimal for ruines, because it also makes stuff sway in the wind

Another Technical Variant.
Likely the last, as i am more or less through with my concepts on this one (tho i might change my mind if someone has a good idea)

This time further developing seZereth's "Crazy Fireman" theme (The driver is built from "spare parts" i took from his Fireman and Guardian)...



Since the car looks somewhat diferrent from the others, it's probably better be a "hero" unit ("Incinerator" or something...)

Cool! Dual flamethrowers. I like "Incinerator" as a hero unit.

Another note... The Coyete has been working on that sport-car-tank mock up... He want online in a while now... Are there any files he had uploaded where i could take / finish it up from ?

I PM'd him a couple of days ago to see if there was an update, no reply yet. He did not post any files. I hope he comes back.

just coming back form my offline holiday, sorry i had hoped that i had more time but was´t able to finish the car and in the coming days i have (and also want) to finish my work for the university. So i have no idea how much time i have. Nevertheless made a quick try to apply the rust texture a bit refar (and also lighted the base colour) posted and the result looks much more uniform to the other car vehicles, like the great new firemanic (and the utes)

Here is the nif, not linked to an animation [refar could you please? - i planed something like this (wanted to try how much an aniamtion creation with nifscope is possible), idle i though about a bit action, car drives back, shoot one time, hit explosion on ground (if possible in idle, or full speed and brake and than back to start position) and after a shoot, the car is moved back and suffers a bit from the backstroke, like front goes up rear down)] and the new texture (i would call it final beta, there are some small errors, but i´m not sure if there are visible in game)

edit: uploaded the 1024*1024 work texture