SGOTM 08 - XTeam

leif erikson · Sep 18, 2008

Is anyone really good with XL and care to give it a try?

I'll try to get a new test save together that has a few more land tiles around the start than the last one did so we can get this testing phase cooking. Also, I think we can do what we did in SGOTM06 and update the map after each turn set's discoveries. That seemed to help us plan ahead a bit better?

Once we have the start tested and agree upon how to handle it, we can play the first set. I'm anxious to see what we have around us to work with!

Frederiksberg · Sep 18, 2008

leif erikson said:
I'll try to get a new test save together that has a few more land tiles around the start than the last one did so we can get this testing phase cooking.

As far as I can see under the fog the marble island is only two tiles. You may want to do the test save like that also.

leif erikson said:
Once we have the start tested and agree upon how to handle it, we can play the first set. I'm anxious to see what we have around us to work with!

The opening set will not be influenced much by long term goals so as soon as we have reached an agreement on opening builds and tech path we should be ready. After that we can probably do better and faster tests of long term plams.

leif erikson · Sep 18, 2008

Frederiksberg said:
As far as I can see under the fog the marble island is only two tiles. You may want to do the test save like that also.

OK, I'll try to get it made during lunch, about 4 or 5 hours from now.

Frederiksberg said:
The opening set will not be influenced much by long term goals so as soon as we have reached an agreement on opening builds and tech path we should be ready. After that we can probably do better and faster tests of long term plans.

I agree. The question I have is how we want to do our sets. In this game, I think we may want to play shorter sets instead of to goals as we have in the past several games? Shall we make the first set 20 turns long?

I think one important part of the first set will be to get a look around us to start planning future city sites.

I am also thinking that we should try to play a bit slower this game and not get too far ahead of the other teams? Too easy for them to set goals to get ahead of us. :rolleyes:

rrau · Sep 18, 2008

I got barb rushed last night when I tested and died....bad luck with the event thing

ShannonCT · Sep 18, 2008

leif erikson said:
Is anyone really good with XL and care to give it a try?

I'll try to get a new test save together that has a few more land tiles around the start than the last one did so we can get this testing phase cooking. Also, I think we can do what we did in SGOTM06 and update the map after each turn set's discoveries. That seemed to help us plan ahead a bit better?

Once we have the start tested and agree upon how to handle it, we can play the first set. I'm anxious to see what we have around us to work with!

I did some graphs from the Excel spreadsheet you provided, correcting some number and filling in the rest. The graph of E(t)/t was pretty flat over the turns you played. Local maxima came at CoL, Theology, Aesthetics, and Lit. I'd have to see a game go farther to tell you whether higher maxima can be acheived in a domination game. From KC's estimates, a longer game should be a winner.

If leif puts out a new practice game, I'll play it through and post a spreadsheet and graphs. I assume that the aim should be to research through to Communism (for Kremlin) and Mass Media (for Hollywood, Broadway, Rock, UN, Eiffel, Cristo, Jewelers). What about Biology/Medicine (for National Park, Red Cross, Sushi)? What about Steel/Railroad (for Ironworks and Mining Inc)?

I'm thinking my strategy will be to rush 1 neighbor ASAP, either with chariots, axes, or swords. If given the choice, I'll take out an AI less likely to tech trade or build wonders. Meanwhile, I will try for a Oracle-CS Sling and Great Lighthouse (good for a snaky map), and maximize tech speed through to Education and Military Tradition in a peaceful buildup phase. After getting some Currassiers, I'll take on any other nearby AI while teching to Astro and Physics. Final phase will be overseas warfare while teching to final techs and rush building the remaining wonders.

If anyone else wants to play with Excel, here are a few useful tips:

1. To copy a number into several of the cells below, click on the bottom right hand corner of that cell and drag down to the last cell you want to copy the number to.

2. To set up a column for E(t)/t for example, type =B4/A4 into the first cell and click the green check mark up top. This simply tells Excel to fill that cell with the contents of cell B4 divided by the contents of cell A4. You can then drag this formula down into all the cells below just as in tip 1.

ShannonCT · Sep 18, 2008

Here's a completed spreadsheet and graphs of Leif's practice game.

killercane · Sep 18, 2008

ShannonCT said:
I did some graphs from the Excel spreadsheet you provided, correcting some number and filling in the rest. The graph of E(t)/t was pretty flat over the turns you played. Local maxima came at CoL, Theology, Aesthetics, and Lit. I'd have to see a game go farther to tell you whether higher maxima can be acheived in a domination game. From KC's estimates, a longer game should be a winner.

If leif puts out a new practice game, I'll play it through and post a spreadsheet and graphs. I assume that the aim should be to research through to Communism (for Kremlin) and Mass Media (for Hollywood, Broadway, Rock, UN, Eiffel, Cristo, Jewelers). What about Biology/Medicine (for National Park, Red Cross, Sushi)? What about Steel/Railroad (for Ironworks and Mining Inc)?

I'm thinking my strategy will be to rush 1 neighbor ASAP, either with chariots, axes, or swords. If given the choice, I'll take out an AI less likely to tech trade or build wonders. Meanwhile, I will try for a Oracle-CS Sling and Great Lighthouse (good for a snaky map), and maximize tech speed through to Education and Military Tradition in a peaceful buildup phase. After getting some Currassiers, I'll take on any other nearby AI while teching to Astro and Physics. Final phase will be overseas warfare while teching to final techs and rush building the remaining wonders.

If anyone else wants to play with Excel, here are a few useful tips:

1. To copy a number into several of the cells below, click on the bottom right hand corner of that cell and drag down to the last cell you want to copy the number to.

2. To set up a column for E(t)/t for example, type =B4/A4 into the first cell and click the green check mark up top. This simply tells Excel to fill that cell with the contents of cell B4 divided by the contents of cell A4. You can then drag this formula down into all the cells below just as in tip 1.

I think Biology is a definite, Steel is a call it at the time (but probable). Once Redentor is in place and sufficient pop, the "call its" (Democracy, Steel, Cereal Mills tech) should be feasible with the Representation every other
turn thing.

killercane · Sep 18, 2008

Frederiksberg said:
Can you tell in greater detail what your opening sequence was? Normally we do very detailed testing of the opening because this can be simulated very closely using the test game. The interesting stuff are build orders (i.e. worker, wb, ....), tech path (Fishing, AH, ....) and in some cases also discussions on which tiles to improve/work.

With all the forests and food BW may be strong early because we can get the first settler out fast using chops/whip. I think I read somewhere that the slave revolt can only happen in cities above size 4 (or was it 5) and only after Writing has been discovered. Is this correct?

Yes, thats the way to do it. It would aslo be nice to have columns showing E(t)/t, B(t)/t and W(t)/t. I'm afraid I don't know how to do this easily in Excel. It will be really interesting to get a rough idea of when E(t)/t starts to decrease because this will give us an approximate victory date to aim for.

I have tried it a couple different ways since the first game, but it always ends up being best the way proposed: Settle, build worker (15), research fishing and AH, worker goes to mine gold and then pastures cow. Either settler at size 2 or workboat to size 3, then settler, then library.

Alternatives tried are (all w/ CS slingshot attempt):

No fishing, settler at size 2 (cow+gold), then library. The problem here is w/o fishing it takes a while to get to size 4 for the 2 scientists assigned.

Fshing, wheel, BW, AH, writing (not necessarily in that order), use scientist to bulb math (since you are wasting time around w/ BW and wheel). Not bad but not optimal in that you lose academy bonus (~10 bpt). You can also try granary and pottery research and whipping more here, but it gets complicated. We really need some better food in the real game.

Of course Asoka in the test game is an oracle builder, so he has gotten it from 1280 BC->600BC.

leif erikson · Sep 18, 2008

Thanks for the spreadsheet SCT. I'll have a look this evening.
EDIT - Couldn't resist. Looks like the best time to win is on the first turn! :lol:

Forgot the Palace... :rolleyes:

Just completed a test save. I modified a random start and did not change the locations of AI units. In checking out the map in world builder, the ratios for the placement of AI starting places is the same as we found on SGOTM06, roughly 13 tiles east or west and about 10 to 12 north and south. That doesn't tell you where the AI is, but we used that to fairly good advantage in that game.

The save is attached. Please note: I removed as many Goody Huts as I could find. :mischief:

Frederiksberg · Sep 18, 2008

I have an idea for some more macro analysis and need some estimates for the beaker output as a function of the turn number. So it would be much appreciated if you could make a note of this - say every 10 turns - when playing test games :please:

Thanks for the Excel work and info Shannon - just what we needed :goodjob:

.

killercane said:
Alternatives tried are (all w/ CS slingshot attempt):

How do you see the odds of pulling off the CS slingshot? And does it justify postponing the Academy?

I'm a little worried about our ability to get the Prophets we need for all the shrines that the AI doesn't build (4-5 maybe?). Can we get that many if we also plan for lots of scientist?

killercane · Sep 18, 2008

Frederiksberg said:
I have an idea for some more macro analysis and need some estimates for the beaker output as a function of the turn number. So it would be much appreciated if you could make a note of this - say every 10 turns - when playing test games

Thanks for the Excel work and info Shannon - just what we needed .

How do you see the odds of pulling off the CS slingshot? And does it justify postponing the Academy?

I'm a little worried about our ability to get the Prophets we need for all the shrines that the AI doesn't build (4-5 maybe?). Can we get that many if we also plan for lots of scientist?

It is 80% if we dont detour from Fishing->AH->Writing->(Alphabet)Math->Priesthood->CoL->Slingshot. Alphabet is in brackets and depends on if we can get Meditation or Polytheism in trade which sweetens the deal and makes our time better. We need BW to chop woods to build the Oracle in time in the 10-14 turns it will take to research CoL. Yes it can be lost but certainly it is better to go ahead and attempt it. If the map is watery we can discuss Metalcasting, or Currency slingshot if we have several trade partners (3-4 partners x 4 cities=12-16 commerce so as not to be a large disparity with CS). We wont postpone the academy unless we research several things first, like BW and Wheel; this way gets complicated in that we can also switch to caste and run more scientists. It takes 17 turns for the first scientist, and if you research math, you need wheel as well to bulb alphabet.

On the priests, I think a high hammer city can build several Priest wonders, and even build Angkor Wat to run 3 priest specialists.

DJMGator13 · Sep 18, 2008

I've been working thru some internet connection issues ever since I upgraded my Norton Internet Security 2007 to 2008. It's not entirely related to that but that seems to be what started the problems. I think I may have it fixed finally. Hopefully this will allow me to get back to some Civ action after work instead of trying to fix this issue.

leif erikson · Sep 18, 2008

ShannonCT said:
If leif puts out a new practice game, I'll play it through and post a spreadsheet and graphs. I assume that the aim should be to research through to Communism (for Kremlin) and Mass Media (for Hollywood, Broadway, Rock, UN, Eiffel, Cristo, Jewelers). What about Biology/Medicine (for National Park, Red Cross, Sushi)? What about Steel/Railroad (for Ironworks and Mining Inc)?

I was thinking about this and wonder if we should actually play past where we expect the timing for victory might be. This would give us better info on where the point of maximization might be and how quickly it drops off? :mischief:

ShannonCT · Sep 18, 2008

Frederiksberg said:
I'm a little worried about our ability to get the Prophets we need for all the shrines that the AI doesn't build (4-5 maybe?). Can we get that many if we also plan for lots of scientist?

I think we only need 3 prophets (4 max). Let the AIs found Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. We need 2 for prophets for the other 2 religions and likely 1 for Islam.

I think the capital may be the best place for growing prophets. The capital will probably be the place for the Oracle. It will have good production for building Chichen, Paya, Apostolic Palace, and Ankor, and enough food for some preists.

ShannonCT · Sep 19, 2008

I have played Leif's new practice game through Oracle-CS Sling on 1160BC (CS selected 1120BC).

Techs were:
AH
Fishing
BW
Writing
Math
Wheel
Myst
Poly
Preist
CoL
CS

Great Scientist built Academy with 10 turns left on CoL

Enjoy a nice spreadsheet:

Frederiksberg · Sep 19, 2008

Very nice CS date! Seems like you improved on killercane's opening sequence and even got the Academy :goodjob:

Does the new test game have a better 2nd city site?

ShannonCT said:
I think we only need 3 prophets (4 max). Let the AIs found Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. We need 2 for prophets for the other 2 religions and likely 1 for Islam.

In Vanilla and Warlords I have often seen that the AI failed to build some of the Shrines - probably because they are not smart enough to plan for any particular type of Great Person. If this has not changed in BtS it's quite likely that some of the religions founded by the AI will not have Shrines unless we build them. This means that we may need more Prophets to be able to build all Shrines.

ShannonCT · Sep 19, 2008

Frederiksberg said:
Very nice CS date! Seems like you improved on killercane's opening sequence and even got the Academy Does the new test game have a better 2nd city site?

Yes, this game has a second city site with sheep, horses, clams, and crabs.

Frederiksberg said:
In Vanilla and Warlords I have often seen that the AI failed to build some of the Shrines - probably because they are not smart enough to plan for any particular type of Great Person. If this has not changed in BtS it's quite likely that some of the religions founded by the AI will not have Shrines unless we build them. This means that we may need more Prophets to be able to build all Shrines.

Maybe it depends on the distribution of religions, whether they get spread out or concentrated. But playing around with the first practice save, the AI were building 4 shrines.

leif erikson · Sep 19, 2008

ShannonCT said:
I have played Leif's new practice game through Oracle-CS Sling on 1160BC (CS selected 1120BC).

Enjoy a nice spreadsheet:

I did enjoy it! :goodjob:

Got the Academy in there as well as a second city! :clap:

I think we have our initial sequence.
The spreadsheet is looking good as a tool to help us see what our end date might be.

Seems like we're ready to begin with an initial turn set.
Proposed roster:
Shannon
Killercane
Frederiksberg
rrau
Jimmy Thunder
Cactus Pete
Gator
leif

Mad Professor - keeping us honest, from wherever he may be, because he's missing :bts:

Once we have a look at what is around us, we can update the map.

If we agree on the initial sequence, perhaps Shannon will post his save at CS sling so we can continue to play on. I think several of us should continue to play on quite far to see how if we can find a common place where the efficiencies would point to a time goal for victory. Then we can look at that time and see if we can figure out which victory condition would best suit achieving that end date? Keeping the spreadsheet seems an ideal way to determine this.

ShannonCT · Sep 19, 2008

Here's the save:

ShannonCT · Sep 19, 2008

leif erikson said:
I think we have our initial sequence.
The spreadsheet is looking good as a tool to help us see what our end date might be.

Seems like we're ready to begin with an initial turn set.
Proposed roster:
Shannon
Killercane
Frederiksberg
rrau
Jimmy Thunder
Cactus Pete
Gator
leif

KillerCane's opening sequence starts with Fishing before AH to be able to start a workboat right after the worker. But this means mining gold before pasturing cows. I generally prioritize food over gold at the outset unless going for a religion. KC, can you convince us of the wisdom of Fishing first? Either way, I can stop after those first two techs are done to further discuss Bronze Working.

Any thoughts about what the scout should accomplish in my turnset? I guess looking for a second city location, hopefully one that can build a workboat for the fish? Maybe finding an AI to attack? So, east or west?

SGOTM 08 - XTeam

Game of the Month Fanatic

Deity

Game of the Month Fanatic

Emperor

Deity

Deity

Attachments

Deity

Deity

Game of the Month Fanatic

Deity

Deity

Still breathing

Game of the Month Fanatic

Deity

Deity

Attachments

Deity

Deity

Game of the Month Fanatic

Deity

Attachments

Deity

Similar threads