SGOTM 08 - XTeam

ShannonCT · Sep 23, 2008

Turn Report (turns 0-19)

T0) Settle in place. Start worker. Start AH.

T1-2) Scouting. No more seafood in the east.

T3) Borders of capital expand. We have a forested plains hill in our FC that allows us to take advantage of the 25% hammer bonus on workers. We didn't have this in our test maps. This speeds up the worker by 2 turns, so he comes out same turn as AH. :goodjob:

T4-7) Scouting

T8) Buddhism FIADL

T9-11) More scouting

T12) Meet Shaka to the west

T13) Worker finished, start warrior. Start on cow pasture. AH finished, start Fishing.

T14-15) Scouting

T16) Hinduism FIADL

T17-18) You guessed it. More scouting.

T19) Fishing finished, start BW but no beakers invested. Capital is one turn from Pop2 and 1 turn from warrior.

We appear to be on the "small" part of the Big and Small map. There is a fat strip of jungley land to our west, with a couple decent city spots, as well as a narrow strip to our southwest with another decent spot. There is a 1 tile isthmus that spearates the fat strip from Shaka.

Save is uploaded to the server.

Some screenies:

leif erikson · Sep 23, 2008

Nice work Shannon! :goodjob:

Covered a lot of ground. :scan:

Off to look at the save!

EDIT - What would a SGOTM be without a dot map?

ShannonCT · Sep 23, 2008

Leif, I'm updating the "Base" Practice game right now and will post a spreadsheet of my turns as well.

leif erikson · Sep 23, 2008

ShannonCT said:
Leif, I'm updating the "Base" Practice game right now and will post a spreadsheet of my turns as well.

OK, thanks. I'm off for some :sleep:

EDIT - Looks like we'll be needing Iron Working to chop all that jungle. :rolleyes:

EDIT2 - Nice to see that Ivory as well, enables a nice UU with Construction, and HBR.
EDIT3 - Lots of ways to send a Work Boat scouting too. Need to consider an early one for Scouting. :scan:

Nice work. Lots to think about.
btw, on the base map, please check the grass tile to the west of our city. On my copy, it read 6 food as there was a resource there that I had erased. For some reason it kept the food value. In World Builder, I hit erase again and it went back to normal. :crazyeye:

Never have seen that before! :rolleyes:

ShannonCT · Sep 23, 2008

leif erikson said:
Nice work Shannon!

Covered a lot of ground. Off to look at the save!

EDIT - What would a SGOTM be without a dot map?

A city 4 tiles west of your city number 3 would block in Shaka with the free border expansion and have fish, rice, and cows (after killing Shaka). Given that we have a warrior 1 turn away, we may want to complete that warrior and send it to the isthmus. If Shaka sends an archer and settler our way, we can declare war and block his path.

Here's the spreadsheet and modified practice game. I swapped Mansa and Kublai because Mansa is too hard to rush. I also put copper nearby because I interpret Smurkz's graph to mean that they built an axeman. They couldn't have built a chariot - no horse.

killercane · Sep 24, 2008

Looks purty SCT. I like 3 west of starting spot on the plains hill, to have cows and ivory. She gets the ivory early, and can build workers at size 2 with cows and hills. Also, if we place city 3 smack dab on the marble, ivory city can build the Oracle in (2 chops x 60 hammers?+ 14 hammers per turn cow and hill)= 3 turns! So marble island would be settled by T72 (dropped off on T71) and makes easy 1000 BC slingshot.

PH city also can help work capital's cottages, and share hammer producing tiles there when capital is on growth. Its also coastal. Its a good location if we irrigate there.

A couple warriors for fog busting and we wont have much to worry about from barbs outside of galleys later on.

ShannonCT · Sep 24, 2008

Here's a dotmap taking into account KC's suggestion:

Cactus Pete · Sep 24, 2008

Looking good, but until we know where the copper is, siting cities seems premature.

I like the idea of stealing a worker -- we've got a lot of roads to build and many forests to chop.

leif erikson · Sep 24, 2008

Played around a bit with the test game this morning. Once we have bureaucracy, our capital is a production powerhouse. :high5:

It also does not take too long to research HBR and Construction in order to get our UU. Additionally, we do not have to remove the jungle to use the Ivory, so we could plan a quick war against the Zulu, who are always a PITA.

I think we may be able to build Pyramids in our third city if we found on the Plains Hill? Then we will have a Great Prophets city (Marble City), a Great Merchants city (capital, can also build Temple of Artemis)) and a Great Engineer City (Ivory city). Need to play this out a bit and see how the timing works out.

One other thing, if we build a Settler before CoL's, we need to be careful not to found if we want the Holy City to be the Great Prophets city.

There seem to be many options with this map. :crazyeye:

ShannonCT · Sep 24, 2008

leif erikson said:
Played around a bit with the test game this morning. Once we have bureaucracy, our capital is a production powerhouse.

It also does not take too long to research HBR and Construction in order to get our UU. Additionally, we do not have to remove the jungle to use the Ivory, so we could plan a quick war against the Zulu, who are always a PITA.

If Shaka has no metal, or if we can prevent him from hooking it, we can easily take him down with swords. Right now, I think the best bet is to send a warrior to stalk his borders and look for a worker to steal. The scout can hopefully get around his borders and explore more land that he is likely to settle.

leif erikson said:
I think we may be able to build Pyramids in our third city if we found on the Plains Hill? Then we will have a Great Prophets city (Marble City), a Great Merchants city (capital, can also build Temple of Artemis)) and a Great Engineer City (Ivory city). Need to play this out a bit and see how the timing works out.

One other thing, if we build a Settler before CoL's, we need to be careful not to found if we want the Holy City to be the Great Prophets city.

Well, I wouldn't settle city number 2 on the marble, knowing what we know. The plains hill KC suggested is a good spot for city 2, because of the adequate food, high production, and extra happiness resource. City 3 can go on the marble in time for us to start building the Oracle. I don't know that we need to worry about where the Holy City shows up too much. The Shrine is only worth 1 GP point.

As for Pyramids, maybe we will find stone in Zulu territory. Otherwise, Pyramids are expensive, though the capital could build them with Bureaucracy and OR. Capital could become the Engineer city. We don't really want a Merchant city, because we can get one free with Economics, and we only need 1 for Sushi. We mostly want a city that can get us 3-4 Prophets, and another city that can get as many scientists as possible (if playing for a long game). The suggested plains hill city would be good for a Prophet city. It will have the production to build Paya, Chichen, AP, and Ankor, and enough food for a couple preist specialists. I'm not sure what to do about a Scientist farm. A Marble city has the food for specialists, but not the production for GLib and NatEpic. We could save the two forests on the mainland nearest Marble city, but it would still take some considerable whipping to build those two wonders there. Maybe we can capture the Zulu capital for a GS farm. There should be enough food there, and I see a lot of forests over there.

What we need to do right now is try out some different sequences for CS-slingshot and Great Lighthouse. We want at least 3 cities by turn 72 and maybe 4 (4 cities maximizes the value of GLighthouse if we have no AI trade routes). We also want a great scientist for building an academy. Let's take a couple days to come up with the best sequence, including tile-specific worker actions.

Cactus Pete · Sep 24, 2008

Queries:

Can someone provide a personality/behavior profile for Shaka?

When do the random Bts events begin? My experience is that it pays to keep enough gold (not sure what the conservative minimum is) in the treasury to repair an unforeseen trauma rather than be forced to chose between losing population or dealing with an ongong problem. (Of course, if going to 100% research will research a tech one turn sooner, the gold can be spent and replenished on the following turn.)

Don't we want to minimize the number of cities we found before we know where the iron is?

Also, we need to at least consider an early rush before Shaka has advanced units and his city culture grows beyond 20%. It may be worthwhile just to put an axe in his territory to inhibit his development.

Cactus Pete · Sep 24, 2008

ShannonCT said:
If Shaka has no metal, or if we can prevent him from hooking it, we can easily take him down with swords. Presuming that iron is available to us. If not, then we may want to attack earlier rather than later. Right now, I think the best bet is to send a warrior to stalk his borders and look for a worker to steal. The scout can hopefully get around his borders and explore more land that he is likely to settle. Concur.

Well, I wouldn't settle city number 2 on the marble, knowing what we know. The plains hill KC suggested is a good spot for city 2, because of the adequate food, high production, and extra happiness resource. City 3 can go on the marble in time for us to start building the Oracle. I don't know that we need to worry about where the Holy City shows up too much. The Shrine is only worth 1 GP point. Concur.

As for Pyramids, maybe we will find stone in Zulu territory. Otherwise, Pyramids are expensive, though the capital could build them with Bureaucracy and OR. Yes, this is problematic. An Ai can be counted on to build the Pyramids fairly early, so I would be less inclined to build them if the likelihood of capturing them bt mid-game approaches, say, 40% (which might be the case if we are able to take the Zulu capital early and establish a powerful production base). Capital could become the Engineer city. We don't really want a Merchant city, because we can get one free with Economics, and we only need 1 for Sushi. Not sure that I concur on this. A Great Merchant establishing a trade route to another continent provides considderable gold that allows great fexibility -- research, upgrading, etc.We mostly want a city that can get us 3-4 Prophets, and another city that can get as many scientists as possible (if playing for a long game). The suggested plains hill city would be good for a Prophet city. It will have the production to build Paya, Chichen, AP, and Ankor, and enough food for a couple preist specialists. I'm not sure what to do about a Scientist farm. A Marble city has the food for specialists, but not the production for GLib and NatEpic. We could save the two forests on the mainland nearest Marble city (that's a high price to pay), but it would still take some considerable whipping to build those two wonders there. Maybe we can capture the Zulu capital for a GS farm. There should be enough food there, and I see a lot of forests over there.

Yes, I don't see a GS farm city site right now. Hopefully we'll find one before the GLib can be built.

What we need to do right now is try out some different sequences for CS-slingshot and Great Lighthouse. We want at least 3 cities by turn 72 and maybe 4 (4 cities maximizes the value of GLighthouse if we have no AI trade routes, but establishing before we know where the iron is is undesirable.). We also want a great scientist for building an academy. Let's take a couple days to come up with the best sequence, including tile-specific worker actions.

How about a plan just through BW?

ShannonCT · Sep 24, 2008

Cactus Pete said:
Queries:

Can someone provide a personality/behavior profile for Shaka?

Shaka
Favors: military
Builds wonders: very rarely
Trains Units: extreme
Agression Level: very high
Tech trading: willing
Attack Courage: very high

Extreme warmonger!

Cactus Pete said:
Don't we want to minimize the number of cities we found before we know where the iron is?

If we're worried about founding a city on top of iron and not getting the production, maybe. Although cities founded on jungle tiles shouldn't turn up iron underneath. And iron under the plains hill city would give 3 hammers on the city tile.

If you're worried about founding too many cities and having high maintenance, no. Great Lighthouse makes coastal cities pay for themselves, even with domestic trade routes. With foreign trade routes, they turn a tidy profit.

Cactus Pete said:
Also, we need to at least consider an early rush before Shaka has advanced units and his city culture grows beyond 20%. It may be worthwhile just to put an axe in his territory to inhibit his development.

This speaks to researching Wheel fairly early and hooking the copper that I expect we'll find nearby.

Frederiksberg · Sep 24, 2008

ShannonCT said:
I'll play a better-documented practice game through to Astro/MT/DR, and then on to Communism/MM/Medicine to see where E(t)/t really stands at those points.

That would be great! I'm afraid that work and travel prevents me from helping out with testing for a while.

Would be nice to get a scouting wb out. If we can reach the big continent without Astronomy the case for MT/DR grows in strength since the difference in E(t)/t increases when Astro is not needed.

killercane · Sep 24, 2008

I agree with all SCT's thoughts, esp. worker steal with the new warrior. Lest I forget:

Iron

There is one spot with a probable resource in the middle of the jungle there to the north of the freshwater lake. If iron or copper is there, I think we need to settle it certainly before Shaka, but the city is a short term liability in terms of production. Only a closeby city to get the hills in reach is going to be an immediately useful 2nd city site. The settler wont be out before BW so we can take the copper into account I believe.

City Site

The Pig city can be founded on the desert to make it more foody. The only drawback is lack of overlap with city #2 if on PH. There is no loss of "unused tiles" with settling on desert.

leif erikson · Sep 24, 2008

Frederiksberg said:
Would be nice to get a scouting wb out.

I concur. Meeting other civs would also increase the value of TGLighthouse.

Cactus Pete said:
How about a plan just through BW?

This should get us through a ten turn set.

Cactus Pete said:
Yes, this is problematic. An Ai can be counted on to build the Pyramids fairly early, so I would be less inclined to build them if the likelihood of capturing them bt mid-game approaches, say, 40% (which might be the case if we are able to take the Zulu capital early and establish a powerful production base).

Please remember that we may need the Pyramids to allow Universal Suffrage, so that we can cash rush. If they get built too far away, that could be a problem. Aren't the Pyramids one of the few ways to generate Great Engineer points in the early game? The only other sources are Hanging Garden and Hagia Sophia. Once we build a Forge, we can assign two citizens.

This gets us back to the question of long game versus short game? If short, I think we need to think about building The Pyramids.

ShannonCT said:
If you're worried about founding too many cities and having high maintenance, no. Great Lighthouse makes coastal cities pay for themselves, even with domestic trade routes. With foreign trade routes, they turn a tidy profit.

ARe we still planning to build TGLighthouse in our capital? That will almost surely mean that our first Great Person will be a Merchant, unless we build Library first and run a Scientist or two.

ShannonCT said:
This speaks to researching Wheel fairly early and hooking the copper that I expect we'll find nearby.

In the test game you made, I declared on Khan to prevent him from settling near the isthmus. He had horses and built 6 or 8 Chariots, he built the city to the west of the single tile isthmus, and I had to rush a Spear over there to protect the Axe. A quick strike on Shaka may require Spears as well.

Can we do an early rush and still get ourselves to Civil Service and Bureaucracy? What is more important for us? :hmm:

leif erikson · Sep 24, 2008

killercane said:
City Site

The Pig city can be founded on the desert to make it more foody. The only drawback is lack of overlap with city #2 if on PH. There is no loss of "unused tiles" with settling on desert.

Another disadvantage is not having a canal to sail through, adding three turns to get around that peninsula. :crazyeye:

Mad Professor · Sep 24, 2008

ShannonCT said:
Shaka
Favors: military
Builds wonders: very rarely
Trains Units: extreme
Agression Level: very high
Tech trading: willing
Attack Courage: very high

Extreme warmonger!

It's a shame he's not a wonder builder

The Pyramids are a good wonder to capture rather than build. They still give you the GE points and the flexibility with civics when you capture rather than build, and they are rather expensive to contruct yourself - especially without stone. I have a vague memory from somewhere that lots of jungle indicates tropical zone, and stone doesn't tend to appear much in tropical latitudes... I think.

EDIT: Or was that metal? It might have been metal, not stone. And all that is less applicable in a game Gyathaar has tweaked. I suppose he can put what he likes where he likes... Oh well...

Mad Professor · Sep 24, 2008

Just been graph gazing. CRC have played to 1160BC and from the power graph it looks very much like they've taken a peaceful builder route at least to that point. Several teams have higher power much earlier. They've focused on building some early wonders I guess. War later for them!

leif erikson · Sep 24, 2008

While I know there is much discussion to have before the next set, just thought I would post it:

Roster:
Killercane - UP
Frederiksberg - On Deck
rrau
Jimmy Thunder
Cactus Pete
Gator
leif
ShannonCT - just played! Found Shaka and revealed a whole new world...

Mad Professor - Looking for :bts:

!

SGOTM 08 - XTeam

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