SGOTM 08 - XTeam

ShannonCT · Sep 26, 2008

Since random events are now possible, maybe we should put together a contingency plan for deciding on some of the most significant and likely events.

Here's a link to a list of the possible events:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=236727

Some events that we need to decide how to deal with:

Event 1: Forest fire destroying forest

Spoiler :

Event 5: Road is destroyed

Spoiler :

Event 11: AI famine

Spoiler :

Event 12: Slave Revolt

Spoiler :

Event 31, 32, 34: Hurricane/Cyclone/Blizzard

Spoiler :

Event 50: Mining Accident

Spoiler :

More later

leif erikson · Sep 26, 2008

Just played a test game skipping over Sailing and Masonry and waiting until after Bronze Working for Writing. Held on Sialing and Masonry until after the CS sling.

A couple of things:
1. It was close getting a Great Scientist for the Academy before starting on CoL's. I was several turns into CoL's when I finally got one.
2. In this game, I missed GLHouse as it came on Turn 89, just before I was finished.
3. First random event came on turn 56, a Barb upraising with 4 Spears. They all spent themselves on a single Axe, which survived.

4. Second random event, on turn 67, washed away the road on the Ivory, causing unhappiness in the captial while trying to research CoL's, causing a couple turn delay. :rolleyes:

Gold is close then and I couldn't afford to pay for keeping the road. :rolleyes:

Not sure how to solve that one...
5. Parked the Scout in Shaka territory and watched his development. He went right after the copper. He had it hooked up by turn 45. Never saw any Impi's until turn 64 and Axes at turn 68. If we want to try to disconnect his metal, we need ti find it and, perhaps, through Open Borders, get our units close to it before declaring, should the source be on the other side of his capital.

Detailed notes got wiped out by a computer crash. Perhaps another try after some sleep?

ShannonCT · Sep 26, 2008

leif erikson said:
1. It was close getting a Great Scientist for the Academy before starting on CoL's. I was several turns into CoL's when I finally got one.

Yes, academy only shaves 3-4 turns off CoL. But it really shines after Bureaucracy.

leif erikson said:
2. In this game, I missed GLHouse as it came on Turn 89, just before I was finished.

The trick is to whip the lighthouse for 1 pop, and chop 3-4 forests into the GLH. That should give GLH around turn 80.

leif erikson said:
3. First random event came on turn 56, a Barb upraising with 4 Spears. They all spent themselves on a single Axe, which survived.

If we use our scout to fogbust, there wont be many tiles near us where this can happen.

leif erikson said:
5. Parked the Scout in Shaka territory and watched his development. He went right after the copper. He had it hooked up by turn 45. Never saw any Impi's until turn 64 and Axes at turn 68. If we want to try to disconnect his metal, we need ti find it and, perhaps, through Open Borders, get our units close to it before declaring, should the source be on the other side of his capital.

Good idea. Use open borders to get our warrior close to any copper or horse, and be ready to steal the worker.

leif erikson · Sep 26, 2008

A wonder that kept popping up in the screen on choices of builds was Temple of Artemis. It provides 100% yield for trade routes. Combined with Great Lighthouse, it would seem to be a powerful wonder to consider? Of course, its points go towards a great merchant. :rolleyes:

It is sped along with Marble.

Cactus Pete · Sep 27, 2008

If we use our scout to fogbust, there won't be many tiles near us where this can happen.
Don't we need the scout to scout? Isn't this event sufficiently unlikely that we should just plan to fogbust as well as is practical and poprush an axe if necessary?

Based on SCT's report, let's consider keeping 10 gold in the treasury.

"Good idea. Use open borders to get our warrior close to any copper or horse, and be ready to steal the worker." Sounds good. Has it been possible to steal a worker in test games? Are workers never escorted by archers? How easy was it to get the worker back to our territory?

ShannonCT · Sep 27, 2008

leif erikson said:
A wonder that kept popping up in the screen on choices of builds was Temple of Artemis. It provides 100% yield for trade routes. Combined with Great Lighthouse, it would seem to be a powerful wonder to consider? Of course, its points go towards a great merchant.

It is sped along with Marble.

Temple of Artemis gives a 100% bonus to the BASE trade route value in the HOST city only. With base trade routes worth 1 commerce each for much of the early game, 4 trade routes gain 4*1.5 = 6 commerce from Artemis in capital. 6 commerce becomes 10.5 beakers at 100% research. So, that's still decent. Then there's the free preist specialist, and 5 GP points split between Prophet and Merchant. With the Merchant points from GLH, a GM would become quite likely. I have to figure out how much a trade mission can be worth.

rrau · Sep 27, 2008

Cactus Pete said:
No one has responded to my query about when random events start. Surely testing has provided some info on that.

In one of my test games, I wrote down that our ambassador to france caused faux pas on turn 64. That was the first one for that game.

ShannonCT · Sep 27, 2008

Cactus Pete said:
Don't we need the scout to scout?

Yes, of course. I was assuming that we're probably on the small landmass and that the scout will run out of land to explore soon. Then, he can come back and fogbust.

Cactus Pete said:
Sounds good. Has it been possible to steal a worker in test games? Are workers never escorted by archers? How easy was it to get the worker back to our territory?

I have stolen a worker in all of the test games. But it depends on there being some resource in Zulu borders that we can stalk with our warrior. Early workers have been largely unescorted. And usually, if the AI couldn't spare a unit to guard the worker, they can't spare a unit to try to retake it either.

rrau said:
In one of my test games, I wrote down that our ambassador to france caused faux pas on turn 64. That was the first one for that game.

That's about normal. The median time for the first random event will be around turn 70.

leif erikson · Sep 27, 2008

Cactus Pete said:
Based on SCT's report, let's consider keeping 10 gold in the treasury.

Good goal. At times it'll be hard to manage if we want to stay at 100% research and get Oracle by turn 71.

Cactus Pete said:
"Good idea. Use open borders to get our warrior close to any copper or horse, and be ready to steal the worker." Sounds good. Has it been possible to steal a worker in test games? Are workers never escorted by archers? How easy was it to get the worker back to our territory?

I think it is possible to steal a worker as there were many times I found them without escort. On this map it was not practical because, with the capital nearest the isthmus and the isthmus covered in jungle, all the worker actions were happening to the north of his capital, as well as his new cities being founded. There would have been no way to get the worker home again.

This is why recon is important around Shaka's home turf.

EDIT -

ShannonCT said:
I have stolen a worker in all of the test games. But it depends on there being some resource in Zulu borders that we can stalk with our warrior. Early workers have been largely unescorted. And usually, if the AI couldn't spare a unit to guard the worker, they can't spare a unit to try to retake it either.

Were you able to get them home? :hmm:

ShannonCT · Sep 27, 2008

leif erikson said:
Good goal. At times it'll be hard to manage if we want to stay at 100% research and get Oracle by turn 71.

I think it is possible to steal a worker as there were many times I found them without escort. On this map it was not practical because, with the capital nearest the isthmus and the isthmus covered in jungle, all the worker actions were happening to the north of his capital, as well as his new cities being founded. There would have been no way to get the worker home again.

This is why recon is important around Shaka's home turf.

EDIT -

Were you able to get them home?

I haven't tried your newest practice game. If it's not possible to get the worker home immediately, it can be deleted. It's still better than letting Shaka hook metal.

Cactus Pete · Sep 27, 2008

ShannonCT said:
I haven't tried your newest practice game. If it's not possible to get the worker home immediately, it can be deleted. It's still better than letting Shaka hook metal.

Yes, preventing metal hook up would be highly desirable, and perhaps we could pick up the worker in a galley eventually.

leif erikson · Sep 27, 2008

I think we may be ready to play the next turn set of 10 turns?

Objectives:
Research Bronze Working.
Warrior completes and heads for Shaka's border.
Next build a Work Boat, headed for the Fish.
After Work Boat, a Warrior until pop 3 and then a change to Worker.
Worker completes Gold mine and heads for Grass Hill two south of Capital for a mine.
Scout works around Shaka's borders to find as much about his capital and its surrounding tiles, searching for Copper and Horses, and a Worker to steal.
What did I miss?

In testing, I had Shaka pretty consistently changing his civics to Slavery around turn 20 to 22.

What do you think Killer?

killercane · Sep 27, 2008

Yes I think the plan is pretty straightforward.

ShannonCT · Sep 27, 2008

Agree Killer should play whenever he wants.

Revisiting the question of whether we want an early Great Merchant:
A Great Merchant trade mission in the early/mid game will be worth 1100 gold if we can get the GM to the other continent. That 1100 gold can be spent in a couple ways: upgrading units, or funding deficit research. These options are essentially the same. If one has a choice to grow a GM or a GS, one could grow the GS and bulb a tech while leaving research at 0% to amass money for upgrading. So I will treat the two as the same.

Assuming that we aren't getting any gold bonuses until later in the game, 1100 gold can be converted to beakers with a percent bonus equal to the weighted average of the beaker bonuses in our cities. With the capital under Bureaucracy, it will be producing the majority of commerce, perhaps 60%. And it gets a 75% beaker bonus. The other cities get a 25% bonus with a library, and nothing otherwise. Assume that the average beaker bonus in these cities is 15%. The weighted average beaker bonus in our empire would be 51%. The 1100 gold from the trade mission could be converted into 1661 beakers. This number then gets a bonus for researching techs to which we know prerequisites and techs that some of the AI know. After we pick up a few straggling techs with Alphabet, we will be researching techs that the AI doesn't know. So assume no bonus there. And we will generally know 1 prerequisite for each of the later techs we research. This gives a 20% bonus. So 1661 beakers becomes 1983 beakers. Compared to a Great Scientist bulbing a tech (for up to 1536 beakers), this is a good deal. And these beakers can go to any tech, not just one along a particular bulbing path.

Possible drawbacks/pitfalls:

1) The full benefit may take a long time to realize. If we are at -25 GPT at 100% research, it takes 44 turns to spend 1100 gold. Bulbing a tech can produce an immediate benefit. Also, we may be able to sustain defecit research at some points without the gold from a trade mission. Capturing cities gives gold. Gold can come from selling techs to the AI. It may take 50-60 turns to burn through 1100 gold. Then there are the additional initial turns required to conduct the trade mission.

2) We may not be able to reach anyone on the other continent until after Astronomy. If we can't, the value of the trade mission is significantly reduced. If scouting reveals that Astro is necessary to reach the other continent, a GM should probably be avoided.

leif erikson · Sep 27, 2008

ShannonCT said:
2) We may not be able to reach anyone on the other continent until after Astronomy. If we can't, the value of the trade mission is significantly reduced. If scouting reveals that Astro is necessary to reach the other continent, a GM should probably be avoided.

A Great Merchant can ride a Caravel, so Optics will allows us to send him on his mission.

ShannonCT · Sep 27, 2008

Leif, I just tried a worker steal on your new map, and was able to get one home. I had the warrior and scout join up next to the copper in Zulu borders, and attack the worker. At this time, Shaka only had one archer per city, so I knew neither would try to retake the worker. The three (warrior, scout, worker) made their way back south through Zulu territory to a point next to the Zulu capital. By this time, Shaka had a second archer there. Shaka attacked and killed my warrior, but the scout and worker moved out of range that turn and were home free. Only problem was that I lost my warrior and Shaka could just build another worker and hook the copper. Now, on your map, there is grassland east of the Zulu capital where some fog-gazing on the real map shows forests. So my warrior should have had a 50% defensive bonus against that archer. If I hadn't lost him, I could have sent him back to stalk the copper after getting the scout and worker far enough.

leif erikson · Sep 27, 2008

Nice work, that will be a good technique to try in our game. Of course, the tile I mess up on is most important to the strategy... :rolleyes:

It will be very interesting to see what Killer unveils during his set. :thumbsup:

killercane · Sep 27, 2008

Alright, bout to play.

Edit: And a few minutes later...

Preturn
Looks good. Not much to do this early.

T1
Move scout, finish warrior1 (moved towards ivory) and start WB, grow to size 2 and work cow and grassland forest.

T2
Warrior1 moves again toward the ivory. Scout towards Shaka. Gold mine done and now work gold and cow.

I cant think of anything interesting in the next few turns other than moving the worker to mine the grass hill S of the capital and moving the units towards Shakazulu.

T7
Workboat produced. I cant remember if we want the fish or clam (90% sure we agreed on fish but...) I save and show you some nice pics!

Growth is in 1 turn. Shaka has horses!!

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/Xteam_SG008_BC2960_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

killercane · Sep 27, 2008

Obviously the horses will be a worker stealing opportunity down the line. His border expands (T50?) and if he has AH you can be sure he will have a worker bee down there asap.

He was working a 1 hammer grassland forest in the first pic. I dont know what to make of that other than he doesnt have several "specials" in his BFC. He also might be trying to build a workboat, but again its hard to say w/o more info. He is probably not building a worker currently using such a tile (EXP), a settler is a possibility as is an archer. So I would guess he has a worker already. If he has the Wheel (forget if he starts w/ it), and has nothing else for his worker to do, the AI loves to road around their BFC. So this is another opportunity to nab an early worker. I am very confident we will grab one or two workers with the horse placement on his border. He might even build a city down there.

So the Q is do we build the worker or settler at size 3 if we plan on acquiring the worker from him pre-turn 60? That is pretty late, adn the early worker will help, but do we want to burn a forest pre math for the settler after 2 workers?

He has not adopted slavery yet unless I missed it. I will check when I go back in or if we hand off to the next player he/she can check.

I saw no barbs in my turns.

ShannonCT · Sep 27, 2008

Looking good Killer. Workboat goes to fish. Build worker at Pop3 as stolen one is still far away. Finish BW so we can see copper. Position worker to chop second worker. REXing is more important than saving forests.

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