Tolerant Questions and Possible Suggestion

I want to get back to playing Elohim, but I have a few questions about how Tolerant works.
===

Are there any limits on what it can allow a city to build, or is literally every building and unit chain available?

What happens if you lose a city and recapture it? Can you build the Elohim buildings and units or is that capacity forever lost?

How does Tolerant work with heroes and national units? For example, if the Elohim built a Dwarven Druid would that take up a Druid NU slot like normal?

Is there any mechanism for ever allowing Elohim to produce their own units and buildings?

What happens to barbarian cities that are captured? Do they still build barb units and buildings? If so, could a barb city captured early enough build Acheron?

What happens to the upgrade paths of UUs? For example, if I build a Bloodpet in a captured Calabim city, will it upgrade to a normal Axeman elsewhere? And vice versa, if I build a normal Warrior elsewhere can I upgrade it to a Moroi in a captured Calabim city? If you can "cross civ" upgrade, what about UUs that lose the ability to upgrade in their basic civ, like Pyre Zombies? Can they upgrade back to a "normal" unit?

It seems like there would be some wicked upgrade combos if "cross civ" upgrades are possible.


It seems that for Elohim the early rush becomes extremely attractive. Snagging an enemy capital early on would not only give the normal advantages of having two capital sites but also a substantial jump in flexibility. Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't seem very Elohim-y.

===

For the suggestion, I think it would be both a neat effect and a good balancing method for the Tolerant trait would be for it to be based on Culture. The Elohim can build units and buildings for the highest culture in the city. That way over time the population is assimilated and the ability to build the original units and buildings are lost.

Of course, that might be completely impossible to code...

nealhunt said:

I want to get back to playing Elohim, but I have a few questions about how Tolerant works.
===

Are there any limits on what it can allow a city to build, or is literally every building and unit chain available?

Click to expand...

One at a time and only AFAIK... yes, every building and unit is available (barring the usual ie alignment conflicts or religion conflicts)

What happens if you lose a city and recapture it? Can you build the Elohim buildings and units or is that capacity forever lost?

Click to expand...

Forever lost. IE If you lose your Hippus flavored city to the Bannor, even if you get it back right away it is now Bannor flavored.

How does Tolerant work with heroes and national units? For example, if the Elohim built a Dwarven Druid would that take up a Druid NU slot like normal?

Click to expand...

Take up the same slot like any other druid.

Is there any mechanism for ever allowing Elohim to produce their own units and buildings?

Click to expand...

Don't think so. Kinda sucks if you've gotten used to all the extra +city defense buildings.

What happens to barbarian cities that are captured? Do they still build barb units and buildings? If so, could a barb city captured early enough build Acheron?

Click to expand...

No, it becomes an Elohim city.

What happens to the upgrade paths of UUs? For example, if I build a Bloodpet in a captured Calabim city, will it upgrade to a normal Axeman elsewhere? And vice versa, if I build a normal Warrior elsewhere can I upgrade it to a Moroi in a captured Calabim city? If you can "cross civ" upgrade, what about UUs that lose the ability to upgrade in their basic civ, like Pyre Zombies? Can they upgrade back to a "normal" unit?

Click to expand...

Not 100% sure of this one, but I know that I had some Svart adepts that upgraded to the Svart mage. I'd be curious to try this but to be honest, by the time I capture cities my core civ killing team is already well experienced and I haven't really need to fool around with promotions.

It seems like there would be some wicked upgrade combos if "cross civ" upgrades are possible.


It seems that for Elohim the early rush becomes extremely attractive. Snagging an enemy capital early on would not only give the normal advantages of having two capital sites but also a substantial jump in flexibility. Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't seem very Elohim-y.

Click to expand...

You can still only have one capital... if you build the other civ's capital, you lose yours. Still seems kinda cheesy though, I don't like to do it for semi-RP reasons.

It was (supposedly) fixed in 34 so that loss of your Hippus City to the Bannor, then re-capture, will keep the city as being Hippus

xienwolf said:

It was (supposedly) fixed in 34 so that loss of your Hippus City to the Bannor, then re-capture, will keep the city as being Hippus

Click to expand...

Oops, haven't played Elohim since 0.34 so I could be wrong.

fuzzy_bunnies said:

You can still only have one capital... if you build the other civ's capital, you lose yours.

Click to expand...

You can always rebuild your palace, without losing the other civ's palace. So you end up with 2 palaces. As far as I can tell, you can't build a 3rd palace though.

Yeah a warrior rush, especially with Ethne, works wonders cause of the extra palace.

You sure that you have had 2 palaces at the same time? If so that is certainly a bug.

Yup I just rechecked it. I built the Hippus Palace, after that I rebuilt my own and the Hippus Palace was still there. However I can no longer move my capital, since the Elohim Palace no longer shows up on the city build list.

You're saying it's not meant to be....

Now, what happens if you conquer a third civ and build their palace?

That happened to me too - you do lose your own palace when building a foreign one, but if you rebuild your own you have two.

Monkeyfinger said:

Now, what happens if you conquer a third civ and build their palace?

Click to expand...

I can't build theirs either.

Cool. Thanks for all the answers, guys.

I'm assuming that the capture/recapture applies to cities that were originally Elohim as well, i.e. if you lose a city you built then retake it, it stays Elohim?


My flexibility comment was really in reference to just the plethora of unit types rather than a reference to the palace in particular. You could end up with very viable units along many lines which would give you more strategic flexibility. Capturing a Kuriotate capital early with their no-resource cav units means the horseback-trade-honor research beeline, which is normally dependent on finding horses, becomes quite viable. Capturing Balseraphs would make the recon line more appealing with Freaks, Harlequins and Courtesans added to the Devout for UUs on that line (or that can go to that line). The list goes on. Mid or late game it probably doesn't matter as much and certain civs would make virtually no difference, but an early capture could make a huge difference in overall strat.

nealhunt said:

Cool. Thanks for all the answers, guys.

I'm assuming that the capture/recapture applies to cities that were originally Elohim as well, i.e. if you lose a city you built then retake it, it stays Elohim?


My flexibility comment was really in reference to just the plethora of unit types rather than a reference to the palace in particular. You could end up with very viable units along many lines which would give you more strategic flexibility. Capturing a Kuriotate capital early with their no-resource cav units means the horseback-trade-honor research beeline, which is normally dependent on finding horses, becomes quite viable. Capturing Balseraphs would make the recon line more appealing with Freaks, Harlequins and Courtesans added to the Devout for UUs on that line (or that can go to that line). The list goes on. Mid or late game it probably doesn't matter as much and certain civs would make virtually no difference, but an early capture could make a huge difference in overall strat.

Click to expand...

Well... yea... I guess I assumed that was a given. If you capture an enemy city, you can build any building they normally can build which may make certain tech lines suddenly valuable.

The only issue I had was that I always had a hard time warrior rushing with Elohim so by the time I captured enemy cities I had my highly promoted monk army on a roll. Unless I wiped out the enemy, those border cities would always get their borders pushed back and go into unrest etc so it was usually tough to get them to really participate in my overall civ plans.

The Elohim aren't the best civ for Warrior rushing, but they do a decent job due to quantity via God King. Still, I think twice before rushing a defender or aggressive civ since that often results in very high losses. The most you could hope for in those cases would be his border cities, which might be enough to cut off his expansion especially if you are using Ethne.