SGOTM 08 - Smurkz

Being with Methos online we have a bad news: odds are not what we can see in game.
I guess we'll have to reassess them (later tonight for me, unfortunately). They were in the 72% range for first fight.

Niklas, if you are online around 9PM CET, we can have a shot at this. Need to be back to work right now, but I guess either jungle was not taken into account, or the +50% vs melee is not handled as expected...
 
Yes, me and BL found something similar last night using WB. I know the reason for this - it counts the damaged axe as beeing at 100 hp for damage purposes, not 58 as one would expect - but I can't tell without looking in the source whether it's a bug in the code that calculates the odds ingame or if it really works this way. Those who played SGOTM06 (i.e. unkle and Chris) will recall that I discovered in that game when taking Athens that this was not how hp were handled. So either BtS is different from WL in this regard, or there's a bug somewhere.

I agree we shouldn't play on until we know for sure. I will have a look in the source later today to find the answer.
 
Ok, I figured it out. Damage done is calculated differently in BtS than what "common knowledge" dictates. Short story is that the ingame odds are correct, and we should then probably use another cat after all. We seemed to have a building consensus for that before I barged in with erroneous numbers. :crazyeye:

Longer story: In Vanilla, the amount of damage the attacker did each victorious round was 20*(3*A+D)/(3*D+A) where A and D are the attacker and defender strengths. With our axe attacking at 5.5 and his axe defending at 4.64, that would mean 21 vs 18 damage done each round. With 100 hp the attacker could survive 5 hits but die on the 6th. With 58 hp the defender could survive 2 hits but die on the 3rd.

In BtS, the damage done takes into account the maximum strength of the unit, and the formula is a lot more involved. Here's a breakdown:
* A unit's Firepower is calculated as (maxStrength + currentStrength + 1)/2. In other words it's an average of max and current strength, plus 0.5.
* The so called strengthFactor of a battle is (aFirepower + dFirepower + 1)/2, i.e. an average of the firepowers of the attacker and defender, plus 0.5.
* The amount of damage done by the attacker is then (aFirepower + strengthFactor)/(dFirepower + strengthFactor), and the other way around for the defender, both rounded down.

Writing out the factors for the attacker we get

aDamage = 20 * (aFirepower + strengthFactor)/(dFirepower + strengthFactor)
= 20 * (aFirepower + (aFirepower + dFirepower +1)/2)/(dFirepower + (aFirepower + dFirepower + 1)/2)
= 20 * (3*aFirepower + dFirepower + 1)/(3*dFirepower + aFirepower + 1)

This is superficially similar to the Vanilla calculations, except that it works on Firepower, i.e. the average of current and maximum strength, instead of current strength alone. If we let aAvgStrength = (aMaxStrength + aCurrStrength) and similary for the defender, we can continue like this:

= 20 * (3*(aMaxStrength + aCurrStrength + 1)/2 + (dMaxStrength + dCurrStrength + 1)/2)/(3*(dMaxStrength + dCurrStrength + 1)/2 + (aMaxStrength + aCurrStrength + 1)/2)
= 20 * (3*aAvgStrength + dAvgStrength + 4)/(3*dAvgStrength + aAvgStrength + 4)

Looking at our example again, the wounded axe has a maxStrength of 8 and a currStrength of 4.64, so dFirepower is 6.82. Our attacker has both maxStrength and currStrength of 5.5, and thus aFirepower is 6, less than the defender despite having a higher current strength. That means the defender does 21 damage and the attacker only 18, giving the attacker 5 "lives" and the defender 4 (as opposed to 6 and 3 with the old calculations). The odds are then 72.5%, just like the game reports.

I need to update my spreadsheet to do these calculations right. Will be back with a new set of predictions when I have. But using the next cat too seems reasonable.
 
Like I said on IM yesterday, that stinks! But oh well. Looking forward to seeing the corrected odds.
 
Yes, use the cats. We want our non-barrage units in good shape so they can immediately move toward uMgung after taking Kwa to block Shaka from getting behind our lines. If we end up with a couple seriously mangled cats and can't afford the time to let them heal then they'll still be useful for reducing the cultural defenses.
 
Don't have time to do an update now, as little one isn't being helpful at the moment. Basically we sent in two more cats who were able to withdraw and we whipped everyone else.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/Smurkz_SG008_AD0300_03.CivBeyondSwordSave

Turn 127/500 (300 AD) [19-Nov-2008 10:20:29]
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
While attacking in Khmer territory at Smurkz-harapura, Axeman defeats (3.00/5): Zulu Axeman (Prob Victory: 88.2%)
While attacking in Khmer territory at Smurkz-harapura, Axeman defeats (5.00/5): Zulu Impi (Prob Victory: 99.3%)
While attacking in Khmer territory at Smurkz-harapura, Axeman defeats (4.20/5): Zulu Chariot (Prob Victory: 99.5%)
While attacking in Khmer territory at Smurkz-harapura, Ballista Elephant defeats (8.00/8): Zulu Chariot (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in Khmer territory at Smurkz-harapura, Axeman defeats (2.60/5): Zulu Impi (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in Khmer territory at Smurkz-harapura, Ballista Elephant defeats (8.00/8): Zulu Impi (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
While attacking in Khmer territory at Smurkz-harapura, Spearman defeats (4.00/4): Zulu Impi (Prob Victory: 98.9%)
 
Cool :cool:

Too bad that the mecahnics of combat had been changed and no one ( read Firaxis :gripe: ) decided to warn the players :p

So we lost 2 cats and killed all the zulu stack.... things are going pretty much as we expected in that regard. Now we need to move fast before that Shaka has time to make another
 
Now what? :)

Move Jacques and the galleys, have the workers do something useful, and hit enter? Then move a phant next to Kwa to see what's there? I would assume we're planning to move all 5 remaining cats next to Kwa to reduce the defenses (5 x 8%=40%--perfect! Kwa does have 40%, yes?) and then attack directly if there are only a couple units defending.

One of our axes (88% victory prob) should be up to 5 XPs now--give him City Raider 2? Just as a wild idea (and not a very good one, I think), if Kwa is very poorly defended and we don't need a CR2 axe, we could promote him to Woodsman II and send him double-time down to the jungle near uMgung to stop infiltrators and give us more warning of what's coming up. Even with 50% extra jungle defense plus the intrinsic 50% he'd only be strength 10 against any chariots that came by, and they're +100% vs axes---just a thought.

Do we want to change the build in Pura? Axe, cat, back to library? I guess it partly depends on how injured our cats are (and how many XPs they got).
 
Will post more tomorrow but...

We have two unhurt dumbos and one unhurt axe, they should move together with the cats to outside Kwa. Kwa has only 20%, only one border expansion.

Our axe with 5 xp already has C1, so we could give him C2 or perhaps Shock. Neither CR2 or W2 would work though.

Pura should probably build another cat, seeing how we lost no axes.
 
Did you happen to look at Kwa and/or uMgung toward the ends of your turnset, XCal? Do you know what units they had there, and/or what size they were?
 
The last look before I had to pull back was turn 125. Kwa had the 7 units we just toasted, and there was one archer on the way. uMgung didn't have much--maybe 1 impi?? If we're lucky we'll only face one 10% fortified archer (probably Garrison I) and one newly arrived impi.
 
Our next unit builds are Yo--cat on 131, 134, Hari--phant 130, 134, Pura--TBD. I'm not sure what would be best for Pura to build next. Are we planning to use our 3 healthy cats to reduce Kwa's defenses and then attack with axes? The odds ought to be pretty good, but with more cats coming from Yo maybe we want an axe from Pura. [Edit: Nah, more cats more better.] I'm not sure what the implications are for our planning, but don't forget that Shaka will have HBR in about 2 turns (horse archers have strength 6, +50% attack vs cats).

Looking at the progress charts, it would seem from the culture plot that most teams have been favoring wonders over early conquest. We need to be constantly thinking how to make our contrarian strategies pay off. The charts also show we're falling behind in terms of turns completed, and war isn't going to help with that. Let's keep moving.
 
I agree that more cats are better, they are what will win us the fight in the end. Shaka's HBR shouldn't change our plans much, a Dumbo will eat them for lunch.

I think the culture plot shows that a lot of the other teams expanded more aggressively than us, since we are Creative each town give an immediate +2 cpt. That's where our strategy is most constrained, but that should pick up with the conquest. But yes - regardless, we need to make the most of our SE strategy.

I would actually favor completing that library in Pura. My reasoning is that we're going to win the war anyway, and we already have a nice stack. Skipping the library there might allow us to win the war, say, 2 turns earlier - but delay the library some 10 turns. That's a lot beakers.
 
I think I agree with Niklas -- I want the library. Otherwise, more cats. Can Methos play on today?
 
I don't know how much sooner, if any, an extra cat would help us win, but how much would a Pura library NOW instead of 5 turns from now boost our total beakers? 3% for 5 turns? Yo is dominating our beaker production. We're going to start losing research to unhappy citizens from war weariness or else neeed to put some commerce into culture to counteract that before long--that costs beakers, too. Plus, the sooner we can get back to building and expanding the more beaker-turns we'll get. I still say go all out when at war to reduce unit losses and end sooner. We also need to maximize utilization of our current tech and production lead over Shaka--time is not in our favor since we have no new military techs coming down the pike any time soon. A library's benefit is predictable and linear with time. Military superiority is nonlinear, war is unpredictable, and I'm relentlessly paranoid.
 
Sigh, maybe you are right. My pacifist tendencies are strong. But the faster we can end this war, the faster we can go for CoL+Pacifism and stop worrying about units so much.

I'm ok with going Catapult next in Pura. Renata? Anyone else with an opinion?
 
Sadly, I lost my crystal ball, so I don't know what's the best way to go. But I can live with erring on the side of paranoia.
 
I agree with Xc on the cat issue, Guns make us powerful, libraries don't :p ( ok, being a little sardonic , but this war is far from over and IMO it is a good policy to not stop making units at turn 1 of war ...... and 1 extra cat may mean 2 turns or more of diferece in terms of the end of the war ( at least 2 less turns bombarding Ulundi for sure ) )
 
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