shyuhe
Deity
Wow, finally breaking the 1000AD wall in culture! Congrats!
Cultural Deity before 1000AD is possible
- Thread starter jesusin
- Start date
Thanx! In pre-BtS it would've been late 13th century, but luckily, the turn-year disparity for this period was altered.
Still, this is my best Marathon game, 480 turns vs previous top of 503. As I had a food-poor capital and 2nd cultural city, little wood and no stone until late (thus missing Shenge and not going for Pyrs), this definitely can be improved.
Still, this is my best Marathon game, 480 turns vs previous top of 503. As I had a food-poor capital and 2nd cultural city, little wood and no stone until late (thus missing Shenge and not going for Pyrs), this definitely can be improved.
This is #1 reason I retired (99% anyway) from HoF activity several months ago. I had recently gotten BTS and I realized that sooner or later people will discover the new timeline and the HoF will be all marathon.
Hopefully that will force the staff to add a filter to show the HoF excluding marathon. Currently you can't do that.
Anyway, yea it was lucky. It finally broke my addiction. I needed to move on. The only thing keeping me here is the SG game.
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Congratulations! I suggest we change the name of this thread to
"Cultural Deity before 900AD is possible"
in honor of Lexad's recent AD 900 Win!
Sun Tzu Wu
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Turn 480 in Warlords would be AD 1270 to be more precise.
I suspect that you really mean that the HOF will become all BTS Marathon as opposed to generic Marathon. No one with BTS will be using Vanilla/Warlords to set records in the Marathon tables, since the turn/date shift in favor of BTS is just too much to overcome by both skill and luck.
WastinTime, do you want to exclude Marathon games from the Main HOF table? Is that what you mean by your statement above?
The HOF already can filter out BTS games, but not just BTS Marathon games.
On the other hand, why stop at filtering out just BTS Marathon games? Just specifiy the game speeds (Quick, Normal, Epic, Marathon) and games (Vanilla, Warlords, BTS) you want to see compared in the HOF tables. Of course, now were talking about a custom filtered HOF table and definitely not the main HOF table.
Sun Tzu Wu
No, I just want a filter that shows all speeds except marathon (not exclude/ban them from the table...unless you're granting wishes;-)
Well, Wastin, you have results of 130+ turns at Vanilla Quick; the 480-Marathon corresponds to 106-107 on Quick, and even such Quick non-specialist as I managed to get a 123-turns victory with Pericles. So buck up - perhaps, you can use the new features of BtS to imrove the scores, as Vanilla and BtS are just 50 years apart at 1000AD. The timing disproportion is removed, but you still got the 20% discount to LC.
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Lexad, you have made some excellent points here in comparing Marathon to Quick, except your computation seems slightly off by about a single BTS Quick turn:
480 BTS Marathon turns / 1500 maximum BTS Marathon turns * 330 maximum BTS Quick turns = 105.6 BTS Quick turns.
It is clear that BTS Quick has a definite advantage over BTS Marathon in the Legendary Culture linear ratio measure:
BTS Quick Legendary Culture per maximum BTS Quick turn is 25000 / 330 = 75.8 Culture per Quick turn
BTS Marathon Legendary Culture per maximum BTS Marathon turn is 150000 / 1500 = 100 Culture per Marathon turn
BTS Marathon Legendary Culture per maximum BTS Marathon turn is 150000 / 1500 = 100 Culture per Marathon turn
Note that BTS Marathon AD 1000 (turn 500) is in precise linear ratio to BTS Quick AD 1000 (turn 110) using the same simple linear ratio formula:
500 BTS Marathon turns / 1500 maximum BTS Marathon turns * 330 maximum BTS Quick turns = 110 BTS Quick turns
Edit: So the BTS Marathon # turns compared to BTS Quick # turns for Cultural Victory at AD 1000 (1/3 of total turns in both cases) seems to be fair at the point where the earliest Culture Victory are expected (AD 1000) and thus the BTS turn/date mapping for bot Marathon and Quick are not skewed at AD 1000. This is before adding in the (BTS) Quick advantage of needing only 25000 Culture rather than the expected 33333 Culture for Legendary Culture.
----
The BTS Quick Legendary Culture discount seems to be significantly more than 20%:
75.8 Culture per Quick turn / 100 Culture per Marathon turn = .758 Quick/Marathon Culture per turn ratio.
This amounts to a 24.2% Culture discount for BTS Quick over BTS Marathon.
This amounts to a 24.2% Culture discount for BTS Quick over BTS Marathon.
---- More turn/year mapping comparisons of the linear ratios of game speeds ----
Now, back to the fact that the turn/year mapping for BTS Marathon and BTS Quick are in perfect linear ratio to each other at AD 1000. These linear ratio turn/year comparisons of pairs of speeds within each of Vanilla/Warlords and BTS would tell us whether they are in linear ratio "balance", in other words, whether the turn/year mapping is consistent within each Game. However, this simply tells us whether the time element of the different game speeds are in "balance" for a given game (Vanilla, Warlords or BTS). I'm not sure it makes as much sense to compare the turn/date mapping ratio of an arbitrary game speed of one game to a different game speed of different game, i.e. comparing BTS Quick turn/date with Warlords Marathon turn/date (Two variables, namely Game and Speed are being changed at the same time).
Comparing this ratio for BTS Marathon to each of the other BTS game speeds in a spreadsheet may be interesting ...
As I have mentioned before, having all game elements in perfect ratio doesn't ensure/guarantee that two game speeds are in fact balanced with respect to the difficulty of winning an early game (achieving a HOF #1 slot with either [or any] game speed).
Sun Tzu Wu
We're using different computation basis. The total number of turns doesn't matter for me (same for culture computations, etc), I'm just applying the 4,5 difference in hammers (except non-settler units), lightbulbs and GA effect between Quick and Marathon, as your victory is determined by how fast you run your techpath, construct your buildings and generate Great People.
I accept the idea you need something to give Quick a fair ground vs Marathon's cheaper missionaries and workers, faster units and rush option, so 20% is fine with me. Still fail to see how you derive the conclusion about Quick discount fairness.
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OK.
To make my BTS Marathon to BTS Quick turn/date mapping relevant to Cultural Victories, I did add an additional calculation at AD 1000 (think of it as the center of the range AD 800 to AD 1200) where the earliest BTS Marathon and BTS Quick Cultural Victories are likly to occur. Based on your latest game at AD 900, the Marathon games will be in the low end of this range, perhaps as early as AD 800. With BTS Quick, I expect better results than the current record of AD 1260 (Small Map Size), but perhaps no better than AD 1100, but definitely somewhere on the high end of the AD 800 to AD 1200 range.
As an aside, I expect that the slight Vanilla/Warlords Quick turn/date mapping advantage over BTS Quick can be overcome by BTS' more powerful The Sistine Chapel. However, this is still an open question. Especially, since the current Vanilla Quick record of AD 1235 (Standard Map Size) beats the current BTS Quick record of AD 1260 (Small Map Size).
Obviously, the Commerce (Beaker/Culture) rate differential of BTS Marathon to BTS Quick must also be considered, but I don't see how you are doing that. Are you ignoring Commerce, because Commerce seems balanced between BTS Marathon and BTS Quick?
Sorry, my conclusion was carelessly written, it implied far more than I intended. I did not mean to say/imply that BTS Marathon and BTS Quick are balanced in the way you described above. I meant only that the BTS Marathon and BTS Quick are "balanced" in the turn/date mapping, especially in the range AD 800 through AD 1200 where AD 1000 is the Median date of this range. Post #288 has just been corrected to address this mistake. Thanks for pointing it out.
In my opinion, the only way to tell whether different games and different game speeds are balanced is through exhaustive play testing. However, these theoretical discussions still have value (IMO) and I hope they will continue to be discussed in this thread.
Sun Tzu Wu
4,5 for lighbulbs in form of more expensie techs, as I said. As for culture, it was already stated several times that Quick has discount to notes required for LC status. There is the same law of generating commerce, applying bonuses and transforming it into lightbulbs/cash/notes. Therefore I do not quite understand the question whether I ignore the commerce, as it and hammers are the key of scaling speeds, by construction.
To ignore changes in date-turn balance, one can just consider the turns spent using speed multiplier.
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Lexad, you proven that the earliest Cultural Victory on Deity level is by way of the Sword on "Beyond the Sword". Bravo
Bravo ...I had a theory that the Cultural Win Date goal had switched from AD 1000 to AD 800, but you have shattered that [Cultural Date] goal as well!
Congratulations! ![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
Sun Tzu Wu
Ok, here's the desc. Quechua Small Marathon 745AD (449 turns = below 100 on Quick)
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?entryID=14527
The key strategy is quite different from previously used by both Quick players and myself. It relies less on cottages and GP and more - on buildings. It has three clearly distinct stages, unlike the mix that was used before. Thus, I believe, it would add also efficiency for all speeds.
Pregame and Start
The city tile should give 2 hammers (haven't tried to get 3, but that'd naturally be an improvement) for faster worker and Quechua force.
Gold on plains hill, at least 2 food resources or 1 food resource + some flood plains, gold, some wood for chopping. Overall, a mediocre start can be used - in this one I had hill pig, non-river gold and few flood plains. 2 silks and a spice came in handy later.
Keep in mind you WILL need all marble, stone and copper, as you'd have to build lots of mrbl wonders, Pyrs and 5-6 sets of cathedrals.
Health and food are the major limitations for your LCs. They determine, how fast you can rush and how large you can grow.
Stage 1: Quechua Landgrab
I do not steal workers - I'm aiming at cities, not workers. Otherwise I'd capture less developed land, make AI build archers, learn military techs and prioritize horses and such.
Start with worker for gold, then 5 quechua to accompany the starting one in the first attack. Work gold after it is mined as long as you need more quechua from your capital - after that grow.
On Marathon Quechua cost 2*cost at Normal speed, while Settlers - 3*. The economy is evident. Same for workers, missionaries, workboats.
As you expand your empire, the costs skyrocket - my last 2 citites cost me around 20gpt, but one had 4 food resources and copper, and the other - marble. So I build cottages where I'll need them (in LCs) or where you can discard them later (on low-food tiles in suppor cities). Cottages, lakes, shoreline, chouses boost your economy and allow above-0%-research, along with libs. I hire scientists only in 1 city for a Edu-GS, to preserve the genetics in other cities.
Of early wonders I build Oracle (Alpha or CoL) and Pyrs for Repr (Early happiness, research boost). I only once lost Oracle pre-2200BC - Ai is really handicapped by 1-worker start in BtS. I try to build thm in one city to keep genetics clean, giving birth to no more than one unintended non-GA (use for GAge).
Praise to the Flood Plains: allow to both grow and work cottages. Should always be tilled in LCs. Those'll likely be your only towns at finish.
Leave only LC-cites (food+wood+flood plains desirable), food-rich cities and cities with strat resources. Build the remaining to get 6 cities - we're going full monty.
Put your Espionage on most likely techleader (I pick Musa) to see what he researches and avoid crossing techpaths.
Techs: Mining, (Fishing - optional), wheel, pottery, medi, phood, wri, Alpha |(in this game it was researched by Musa) and CoL, one of them by Oracle.
Stage 2: Whip till your hand bleeds
By now we already have a couple of religions from neighbours (dead or alive) and own Confu. Best of all, if the land is united under one religion.
The major contributor to culture here are buildings. At this stage they are constructed with pop-rushing or wood-chopping and very little by hammers. If the mine does not contain gold or gems - well, that's the hint for you it ain't worth working.
The important WWs are Parthenon, Mausoleum, Sistine and Taj - luckily, non-prioritized by AI, except Taj. Leave forest for them and Hermitage.
Get Mono and MCasting ASAP (Mansa loves MC), rush cheap forges, switch to OR (Slavery should be already on) and start spawning missionaries, temples and cathedrals.
Pop-rush temples and cathedrals in LCs ASAP, maintain only the pop to work food, flood plains cottages and gold mines on a regular basis. Grow on riverside grassland cottages to promote them. My 3rd LC (Hamburg) most of the time fluctuated between pop 2 and 4-5.
I usually pop-rush 5 sets of cathedrals in all cities and if I get a stray religion from switching city later, I get sufficient number of temples to build cathedrals in every LC that is capable of doing it with hammers or has enough wood - but that's usually at the third stage.
Health issues might also make you rush aqueducts, harbors, and grocers later.
Rush missonaries in secondary cities.
Each secondary city should have enough food to give at least 1 GA, i.e. couple of food resources or several flood plains.
Your GP farm may be your LC, but not necessarily.
Don't be afraid of unhappiness - rushing a temple is happiness-neutral, and state-religion cathedral will give 2 happy faces.
Due to constant pop-rushing pop is low, therefore research is slow, so GS for Edu allows to save 15-20 turns and dominates GS.
GP: 1GS, rest GA and 1 occasional Gsomethingelse.
Techs, at least major: Aestetics (for Parth and trade), Maths (trade), Monarchy (trade), CS, Drama (for trade and Music), Music (optional; got beaten by 1 turn by Liz this time - that's where Quick speed would've come handy
), Paper, Edu, Philo (trade), Liber - Nat-m, PPress. Then trade for everything up to Banks.
I'm currenty thinking of dropping PPress, as I tend to have rather few towns at this speed, and at the end it's ~ efficient to run artists as to work villages.
GAges aren't efficient at this stage due to low pop, so I try to delay Taj until the finish of all except occasional cathedral and monasteries/theatres.
Stage 3: Grow and Multiply
I grow a bit my pop, launch Taj GA and switch to (US)+FS+Castes+Merc+Pacif. I start growing, put 100% on culture and work cottages, hire artists and such.
By this time someone should finish an AP, so 2-hammer-monasteries vshould be in every city.
A funny combo: the +5 culture to state religion building from Sistine also double 1000 years after the construction, so if you can guess your Pope, bank on him 100 years before - you'll get 14 base culture froma a monastery, for example.
I stop growth when I see that new cottages will not make it to towns or villages and switch excess citizens to artists in my LCs. Thus my pop is rather low and my health requirements are not that hard.
The secondary cities support the cash level during that (and previous) stage. The best way is by prebuilding WWs and then cashing on them - you can get an up to 3* bonus to you hammers (100% from resources, 50% from Indu, 25% from forge, 25% OR). I've made somewhat around 5K like this during the game.
And usual stuff at the end, optimizing GA birth.
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?entryID=14527
The key strategy is quite different from previously used by both Quick players and myself. It relies less on cottages and GP and more - on buildings. It has three clearly distinct stages, unlike the mix that was used before. Thus, I believe, it would add also efficiency for all speeds.
Pregame and Start
The city tile should give 2 hammers (haven't tried to get 3, but that'd naturally be an improvement) for faster worker and Quechua force.
Gold on plains hill, at least 2 food resources or 1 food resource + some flood plains, gold, some wood for chopping. Overall, a mediocre start can be used - in this one I had hill pig, non-river gold and few flood plains. 2 silks and a spice came in handy later.
Keep in mind you WILL need all marble, stone and copper, as you'd have to build lots of mrbl wonders, Pyrs and 5-6 sets of cathedrals.
Health and food are the major limitations for your LCs. They determine, how fast you can rush and how large you can grow.
Stage 1: Quechua Landgrab
I do not steal workers - I'm aiming at cities, not workers. Otherwise I'd capture less developed land, make AI build archers, learn military techs and prioritize horses and such.
Start with worker for gold, then 5 quechua to accompany the starting one in the first attack. Work gold after it is mined as long as you need more quechua from your capital - after that grow.
On Marathon Quechua cost 2*cost at Normal speed, while Settlers - 3*. The economy is evident. Same for workers, missionaries, workboats.
As you expand your empire, the costs skyrocket - my last 2 citites cost me around 20gpt, but one had 4 food resources and copper, and the other - marble. So I build cottages where I'll need them (in LCs) or where you can discard them later (on low-food tiles in suppor cities). Cottages, lakes, shoreline, chouses boost your economy and allow above-0%-research, along with libs. I hire scientists only in 1 city for a Edu-GS, to preserve the genetics in other cities.
Of early wonders I build Oracle (Alpha or CoL) and Pyrs for Repr (Early happiness, research boost). I only once lost Oracle pre-2200BC - Ai is really handicapped by 1-worker start in BtS. I try to build thm in one city to keep genetics clean, giving birth to no more than one unintended non-GA (use for GAge).
Praise to the Flood Plains: allow to both grow and work cottages. Should always be tilled in LCs. Those'll likely be your only towns at finish.
Leave only LC-cites (food+wood+flood plains desirable), food-rich cities and cities with strat resources. Build the remaining to get 6 cities - we're going full monty.
Put your Espionage on most likely techleader (I pick Musa) to see what he researches and avoid crossing techpaths.
Techs: Mining, (Fishing - optional), wheel, pottery, medi, phood, wri, Alpha |(in this game it was researched by Musa) and CoL, one of them by Oracle.
Stage 2: Whip till your hand bleeds
By now we already have a couple of religions from neighbours (dead or alive) and own Confu. Best of all, if the land is united under one religion.
The major contributor to culture here are buildings. At this stage they are constructed with pop-rushing or wood-chopping and very little by hammers. If the mine does not contain gold or gems - well, that's the hint for you it ain't worth working.
The important WWs are Parthenon, Mausoleum, Sistine and Taj - luckily, non-prioritized by AI, except Taj. Leave forest for them and Hermitage.
Get Mono and MCasting ASAP (Mansa loves MC), rush cheap forges, switch to OR (Slavery should be already on) and start spawning missionaries, temples and cathedrals.
Pop-rush temples and cathedrals in LCs ASAP, maintain only the pop to work food, flood plains cottages and gold mines on a regular basis. Grow on riverside grassland cottages to promote them. My 3rd LC (Hamburg) most of the time fluctuated between pop 2 and 4-5.
I usually pop-rush 5 sets of cathedrals in all cities and if I get a stray religion from switching city later, I get sufficient number of temples to build cathedrals in every LC that is capable of doing it with hammers or has enough wood - but that's usually at the third stage.
Health issues might also make you rush aqueducts, harbors, and grocers later.
Rush missonaries in secondary cities.
Each secondary city should have enough food to give at least 1 GA, i.e. couple of food resources or several flood plains.
Your GP farm may be your LC, but not necessarily.
Don't be afraid of unhappiness - rushing a temple is happiness-neutral, and state-religion cathedral will give 2 happy faces.
Due to constant pop-rushing pop is low, therefore research is slow, so GS for Edu allows to save 15-20 turns and dominates GS.
GP: 1GS, rest GA and 1 occasional Gsomethingelse.
Techs, at least major: Aestetics (for Parth and trade), Maths (trade), Monarchy (trade), CS, Drama (for trade and Music), Music (optional; got beaten by 1 turn by Liz this time - that's where Quick speed would've come handy
), Paper, Edu, Philo (trade), Liber - Nat-m, PPress. Then trade for everything up to Banks.I'm currenty thinking of dropping PPress, as I tend to have rather few towns at this speed, and at the end it's ~ efficient to run artists as to work villages.
GAges aren't efficient at this stage due to low pop, so I try to delay Taj until the finish of all except occasional cathedral and monasteries/theatres.
Stage 3: Grow and Multiply
I grow a bit my pop, launch Taj GA and switch to (US)+FS+Castes+Merc+Pacif. I start growing, put 100% on culture and work cottages, hire artists and such.
By this time someone should finish an AP, so 2-hammer-monasteries vshould be in every city.
A funny combo: the +5 culture to state religion building from Sistine also double 1000 years after the construction, so if you can guess your Pope, bank on him 100 years before - you'll get 14 base culture froma a monastery, for example.
I stop growth when I see that new cottages will not make it to towns or villages and switch excess citizens to artists in my LCs. Thus my pop is rather low and my health requirements are not that hard.
The secondary cities support the cash level during that (and previous) stage. The best way is by prebuilding WWs and then cashing on them - you can get an up to 3* bonus to you hammers (100% from resources, 50% from Indu, 25% from forge, 25% OR). I've made somewhat around 5K like this during the game.
And usual stuff at the end, optimizing GA birth.
Cpt breakdown at finish in my 3 LCs:
Cuzco:
85 from commerce (5 towns = 45cpt, gold mine, spice, 2 silks, riverside village)
24 from spec-s
107 from buildings
1 from religion
bonus +500%
= 1302 cpt
Washington:
75 from commerce (4 towns = 36cpt, gold mine, wine, 3 riverside villages, hamlet)
18 from spec-s
105 from buildings
1 from religion
bonus +400%
= 995 cpt
Washington:
58 from commerce (1 town, dyes, 5 riverside villages, 2 riverside hamlets)
30 from spec-s
86 from buildings
1 from religion
bonus +350%
= 787.5 cpt
Cuzco:
85 from commerce (5 towns = 45cpt, gold mine, spice, 2 silks, riverside village)
24 from spec-s
107 from buildings
1 from religion
bonus +500%
= 1302 cpt
Washington:
75 from commerce (4 towns = 36cpt, gold mine, wine, 3 riverside villages, hamlet)
18 from spec-s
105 from buildings
1 from religion
bonus +400%
= 995 cpt
Washington:
58 from commerce (1 town, dyes, 5 riverside villages, 2 riverside hamlets)
30 from spec-s
86 from buildings
1 from religion
bonus +350%
= 787.5 cpt
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Thanks for the great description!
Please correct the Map size in your post from Tiny to Small.
Sun Tzu Wu
Thanks Lexad. It's quite amazing. I've opened my best wine in your honour.
Could you please add...
- How many GA you got and where were they bombed
- Liberalism turn/date (maybe nor so important, given the cpt breakdown)
- How much culture had you accumulated before starting stage 3
?
Could you please add...
- How many GA you got and where were they bombed
- Liberalism turn/date (maybe nor so important, given the cpt breakdown)
- How much culture had you accumulated before starting stage 3
?
Oh yeah, totally. You should lay off that salmon.
We discussed the strat with my friend Dynamic, who prefers lower levels to minimize external factors - there were some ideas of going for Demo on Settler to grow cottages. We'll see.
jesusinThanx! I think I got 12 GA (one for GAge), bombing 1-4-6, I believe. It can be improved - as I said, I missed Music GA by 1 turn, and in theory I could've gotten a +1GA event
- but overall, I'm pretty glad with my run, unlike the previous two. The fine-tuning will involve switching to culture earlier and finishing PPress with Repr lightbulbs. And finding a better start with closer AI - but that I'll leave for others.I haven't checked, but not much, I believe.
