Cavaleiros Embassy

Letter in from the Cavs, as promised:

Greetings and salutations to our Niña friends,

We hope our relative silence in diplomacy has not caused you to think
we have no wish to deal with you. Discussions have run high regarding
every proposal we have received from you, but unfortunately ultimately
none of the proposals have struck the fancy of the Principe Perfeito.
But as we still eagerly hope for good relations with the mighty Niñas,
despite your strange aquaphobia, we hope to entice you with a trade
suggestion of our own. We have already mentioned this possibility in
passing to your Daimyo of State, the most esteemed General_W, but this
letter should make it formal:

We agree to an Open Borders deal and a trade of knowledge. We will
trade you the secrets of Alphabet, upon that you may trade further
with other people in this world. In return you trade us the secrets of
Metal Casting, with the provision that we promise not to make any
obscenely large statues.

We hope that you will see the merit of such a trade. We realize that
in pure beakers the trade would seem to benefit us more than you.
However, since a) the knowledge of Alphabet could open further trades
for you, b) we would not be able to get the full benefit of Metal
Casting due to not building the Colossus, and c) the knowledge of
Metal Casting was gifted to you from the wise seers of the Oracle, we
truly feel the deal to be fair.

We also note that our São Gabriel has become stuck between your
magnificent cities, while we find ourselves in a state of unbreakable
peace. Open Borders would be the only way we could sail on, as
befitting a true Cavaleiro, and thus we ask that you give us a speedy
reply at least to the issue of Open Borders.

In eager anticipation of your reply,
Methos dos Cavaleiros

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Ok so here are my thoughts:

1. We point out Kaz already has it so we have other trade partners. So it's power is diminished.
2. G_W you have a chat with PG ASAP and find out what that does for MS
3. The agree to not trade MC for how many turns? (10? Krill you need to comment)
4. They give WRITING and Alpha. So we need to know before our next turn, so we can continue to save gold.

On item #4 above I propose that i go int othe game and offer OB for Writing. Right now? If we don't work out a deal too bad if we do we got writing and then we don't need to worry about sinking their boat.

At least the block worked!!!

I don't trust them at all....I think we need to be cautious with them.

Tell them to go to hell? More to follow.

(Sorry, been to handover formal, and drunk a bottle of wine. Fairly tipsy)

OK, I'm not going to explain the game theory behind these points (seeing how no one ever replies to them anyway) but hey, I have to to explain their actions fully, so here are teh breaks:

They may or may not have met Saturn. They may have sent out two workboats one in either direction, in which case according to our thoughts of the world layout, they may shortly stumble upon Saturn with their other wb, in which case they will sell alphabet at knockdown price, letting us only sell alpha to one other civ, MS. They may already have a deal in place to sell alpha to MS; we need to check this out, in which case their deal to let us sell alpha is just so much sh!t. If they have not met Saturn and think that we have (or that we will discover them before Cavs will) then they may consider that it has a small amount of weight, but it is nothing more than a gamble to us (and Cavs may view it s very useful to us depending on how certain they are of contact between us and Saturn), considering that Kaz have already gone past and that Cavs may not know this fact, so we are relying on discovering them via a land route before Kaz do and that is a very risky gamble that is not worth taking considering our scouts positions (I am not sure anymore that they are a solid tech block, albeit from our perspective their earlier trades make them so). We also have the interestin point that we are no in a position to kill their wb, and while they may not know this, we can iterate this to them very easily. I don;t like blackmail, let's get this striaght, but the only way that they make any use of that wb is declaring war and wandering through our borders; if that isn't enough to make us kill the thing then what is?

We do not want to sell MC until t90 at hte earliest. There are only two way to make selling MC safe and that is to either decide not to build the collusus, which is stupid, or to build Collosus in IS which delays the gold city and subsequent expansion (stupid again). The only way to offset this is to get a good tech deal right now. The only techs that we 100% need right now are CoL and masonry, neither of which Cavs can give. There is also the downside that one of Cavs and Kaz can get a forge and luck out on getting a GE after running the engineer for one turn.

ON this note, it is technically not safe to sell MC until we have the pyrmids built. I know, it sucks, but we do not have the land to build a strong economy that can compete in an FFA without either of these wonders. Not trading MC allows us grow into a position that all the other teams can go to hell andwe can tech to at least parity, except in the case of a Kaz-Cav alliance in which case we need Saturn and/or MS (and I think Saturn are screwed in tech atm so we need both tbh) to stay ahead.

Now here is the counter argument: Kaz can research MC very quickly, so quickly to the extent that they only need a size 5 second city making 15 hpt to beat us to the Collosus with no forest chops, but with copper. This is why we need to string them both along, make it seem like we will give them a shot at the Collosus. End of the day, we can't stop them though. If we decide to sell them MC before we finish the Collosus, then I'd probably draw the line at t90 (our t90); a team with no forest chops would need copper and a 28-32 hammer per turn city to get th Collosus in time (Considering some thoughts I've been having about Cavs, and that they moved on the first turn of the game, I am NOT sure that this is enough if they really push)

Alphabet...we can tech it, and it is safe to do so IF we can discover Saturn and trade for CoL; that's ideal. It is not safe to tech alphabet and then screw up and not find them; that's the reason Barentz can not kill that barb city right now and I looked at hte lighthouse idea; we cannot afford to fail to find Saturn by t100; we need to get CoL before we end our turn on t100, and while we can do so by getting alphabet first and build research, that really is not an effiecient way to do so. Nor do we know the use of it, as we have zero tech trades lined up as MS are a crap team with zero organisation (PG should have either stepped aside or allowed someone else to get in contact and chat with us. I know that using the GW and PG friendship is in our best interests, but considering our last letter to them they should at least want to find out if we are telling the truth and how far we want to go with them, the only two explanations are that either they have a secret deal with Cavs in place or that they are disorganised, and considering the sheer lack of posts in their forum (they had 1950 when we had over 5000 for instance) I am inclined towards the latter. Alphabet...is the only tech Cavs have that we want. MC is the only tech we have that they want. Neither is going to swap, considering the use of the others tech as a gamble and the usage of their own as a certain plus to the other team. If both team play safe then a tech trade is not going to happen.

OB are now worth an indeterminate amount between zero and priceless. They are a gamble, we do not know if Cavs have a second wb searching for Saturn, Cavs may not know how close Saturn are to us. If we could give Cavs a set price and justification for OB, then they may pay it. We do not, however, want to lie through our teeth, but we need to play up the advantage of them. Writing is not a useful tech, it is worth only 2 turns and 25 gold (+-2 gold). We should not give this away, but writing is no longer a decent trade, nor do they have anything that is worthwhile (after last turn, we have shown them that while hed rule is useful, we are no lacking for hapiness, a fact which will be compounded in 4 turns when we grow another pop in CK and IS).

The Conclusion for people who don't want to read the above (not that I blame you, I can barely make it through the second paragraph);

• Alphabet is not a necesity, only a lusted after item from a domestics PoV (not from a diplomatic PoV)
  
  
• MC is worth more than all techs the other teams have
  
  
• OB are now worth more than writing, but less than alphabet.
  
  
• Saturn are the factor that no team can take into account and cause everything to be a gamble, injecting uncertainty into the game.

I agree with Krill on This.

But again we have to string Cav Along, with a counter offer. G_W I know you can do this.

Hit on the beaker cost of Alpha vs. MC.
Then hit on MC is a monopoly tech, Alpha is not.
Then hit on we know Cav and Kaz fluidly trade techs thus they will benefit more than us.

Counter argument (I know I know...) OB are more important the sooner we trade them; so while ideally we coudl trade OB for alpha next turn that sure as hell isn't going to happen (unless we tell Cavs we promise not to trade anything to Saturn or MS that we haven't researched outselves...and Cavs buy it, not that I would expect them to). That gives Cavs the "promise" that they can sell monarchy and alpha to Saturn, although we are not sure if they know that Kaz have already gone past and may sell those techs anyway.

To MS (possible misinfomation BTW)

Greetings from your friendly allies os Cavalieros:

We are glad to see that you have the ability to build boats that can
carry men and more importantly trade along the coast. We would benefit
greatly from having this ability, so we would like to receive the
secrets of sailing this very turn. We can give you Monarchy in return
to fool SANCTA, though they can't actually see exactly what techs you
have without either of you having Alphabet. And surely your people
must be unhappy about not seeing the benefits of units stationed in
your cities?

Since we are all close to or have just researched a new technology
what to research next becomes an important issue. We will finish Maths
next turn. After that the most important technology for us all is
clearly Civil Service. Kazakstan will likely handle that as they
research faster than either of us. They have finished CoL and are now
doing Masonry -> Monotheism to deny our adversaries the bonus of a
religion. If they agree to do Civil Service next, we will likely go
for Currency. This technology would greatly improve trade relations
between our nations and as such speed up technology advancement
significantly (though not quite as significantly as the Bureaucracy
from Civil Service allows).

There are of course some options for what technology you can research
next, and we would be most interested in hearing your thoughts on the
matter. Kazakstan want to deny the Great Library from SANCTA while
also getting it for themselves, because of their Philosophical trait.
Since the most important economic techs should already be taken care
off, maybe heading for Aesthetics and then Literature for the wonders
they provide is an idea for you? Another idea would be to go for
Construction or Calendar, but we are in no need for either of those
techs currently, especially not considering the happiness from HR.
Other possibilities include Feudalism, Philosophy, Theology, Archery
and Metal Casting, but we don't think any of those techs are urgent at
this point.

Regarding wonders, do you have any plans to build any currently? We
are planning to build the Great Wall to keep annoying barbs out of our
territory as it is hard to prevent them from spawning with all the
mountains in the way. We are also planning to build the Hanging
Gardens fairly soon. As mentioned Kaz is hoping to build the Great
Library, but they haven't mentioned any others. We belive SANCTA are
aiming to build Colossus at least.

We hope to be able to fool SANCTA into trading us Metal Casting for
Alphabet. Alphabet is nearly useless by itself, so giving them that
doesn't hurt us much, but getting Metal Casting would save us
siginifcant beakers at some point. SANCTA also have yet to meet Saturn
and as such can't utilize it properly. What do you think of this idea?

Cooperation forever,
oyzar dos Cavaleiros

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reposted for posterity

Offer them sailing+OB for Alphabet? But that is a very interesting offer from them...and a very well written letter IMO...

we weren't supposed to get that... that's a letter to the Kazahks.

I'm confused.

EDIT: I'm now convinced that is a letter to Mad Scientists that got lost along the way.

Got Oyzar in a chat now begging me to delete that e-mail

@Krill - want to put that in a spoiler at least or take it down till we decide what we want to do as a team?

LOL I'm an idiot...that's what you get for reading it when you get out of bed...

What has been seen, cannot be unseen.

Just got this note:

Sorry,
I Just sent a mail to you that shouldn't have gone to you. I would be
greatly relived if you didn't read it, though i understand that might
not be possible...

Your humblest appologies for this situation
oyzar.

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So... team vote on whether we should repost the whole thing or not?
I'm torn.

Azza clearly votes to have it up.
We also have the option to use what we know is in the letter, without actually reposting the details.

Put simply, I can't fairly work now that I know exactly what that email specifies and who it was emailed to if the team decides to ignore Cavs mistake, because I know exactly what is going to happen in this game.

I think we need a ruling from a game admin on whether we can repost it, but if using the information is forbidden then I know that I wouldn't be able to comment on things for a while at the risk of divulging the forbidden information, whether through outright saying it or the implications of my opinions on certain matters.

Sent this note to GA:

Hey GA,

Need some Admin input here. Team Cavaleiros accidentally sent my team (SANCTA) an e-mail they were trying to send to team Mad Scientists.

Anyway - I only read the first half or so before I realized what it was. But that was enough to reveal some key info about the game.

To make matters worse, a few of our other team mates have seen the letter (auto-forward from the team-e-mail account - and one member posted it in our forum before he realized what it was).

Anyway - this wasn't intentional espionage... but I'd like to get some kind of a ruling from you on how we should proceed.

Current team discussion starts at post #129 (where the letter was posted, but is now deleted) in this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7892719#post7892719

Thanks for your help!

- Josh / General_W

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I don't think it's a practical solution to ban those of us that read all or part of the letter from talking about it.
That would wipe out most of the leadership of the team ... maybe all if Memphus got the e-mail auto-forwarded to him... which I'm sure he probably did.

Well, last time there was a screw up by another team, we were not forbidden from the using the infomation, and it would be a very sneaky way for Cavs to effectively take out 3/4 of the elected positions in one go.

EDIT for G_W: I almost posted the letter for Memphus as well in chat; good job he had a meeting to go to...

EDIT for GA: The last sarew up came when Provolution talked in a chat with a member of another demogame about his teams goings on in this one, and I read about it when that other person posted the entire chat (it was part of a diplomacy chat in the other game) in the private forum. I have access to all of those private forums because I'm the game admin over there. Sullla said that as it wasn't my fault for gaining the infomation, it wasn't in breach of game rules. In this instance a similar ruling has to be made because a majority of the active members in this team have read that email, to varying extents, and asking us to not make use of that infomation is impossible (what has been unseen can never be unseen). If the members who have seen it were asked to not contribute because of this then azzaman, General_W, and myself (the 3 elected ministers) would have to leave and we'd need new team leadership asap.