Ffh Nes Ii

hbar, I think your analysis is quite right and also that it's ok for the military to be relatively cheap. You have to take into account the cost of losing and replacing some troops though.
 
Yeah, I probably should have split that into two posts, because the strategies part wasn't a criticism of the game system, but just a commentary on game theory in general. Its actually paraphrased from an analysis of various strategies in Starcraft :lol:

There are big risks to either method (builder or warmonger), as well as obvious deviations from the 'pure' paths (turtler, diplomat, etc.). And Immac, I wasn't criticizing your system either, just offering an alternative to anyone who might be starting a new NES *cough* Ekolite *cough*
 
i wasnt insulted or anything... i was just saying what i was willing to change and what i wasn't. sorry if i came off rough...

i am feeling snarky today i guess.... :(
 
Immaculate said:
Well, its definately too late to switch the sort of rubberband mechanic- i can't just go and make workforces cost all teh same and make buildings cost more... so we are stuck with what can be implemented as SMALL changes...
so far a small reduction in workforce costs seems the most reasonable but if someone comes up with a mathematical model (even if complicated since excel is doing the math) to better describe the rubber band mechanic we already have but not make it SO expensive at high levels, that would be awesome...

Who said they were studying lasers again?
Click to expand...

So I whipped up a formula that I think is sufficiently adjustable for balance reasons. By no means is this an ideal formula, but it takes the sting out of the higher levels. The formula allows for a decaying cost increase, approaching an upper cap.

Code: 
Cost(N+1) = base*(1+(mod^N-1)/mod^N*(top-1))
where N is the number of workforces you already have, base is the cost of the first one, top is the multiplier such that base*top = max cost, and mod is the growth rate modifier. Here are some testing numbers that retain the cost of the first two workforces, and have them get cheaper after that:

Code: 
mod = 1.5, top = 4
[I]base = 5   base = 10  base = 15[/I]
[U]N[/U]   [U]Cost[/U]   [U]N[/U]   [U]Cost[/U]   [U]N[/U]   [U]Cost[/U]
0   5      0   10     0   15
1   10     1   20     1   30
2   13     2   27     2   40
3   16     3   31     3   47
4   17     4   34     4   51
5   18     5   36     5   54
6   19     6   37     6   56
7   19     7   38     7   57
8   19     8   39     8   58
9   20     9   39     9   59
but of course, the values of base, top, and mod can be adjusted to fit balance requirements. There is probably a more elegant way of doing this, but I'm an experimentalist, dammit.

Any chance of getting some rp toward the mathematics tech? :mischief:
 
I might just steal that if you don't mind, Hbar. I like how it seems to grow at a faster rate early on and then the growth levels off over time.
 
Well, here is my two cents.

I think the idea to reduce workforce costs now is a good idea, especially for the more expensive ones like trade. It shouldn't have any major balance effect since it affects everyone equally.

I liked seeing Hbar use a more complicated equation to level out the higher cost workforces, but I think the proposed equation removes an importante component of the current system: the need to build cities. If commerce workforces cap out around 40 gold, it is very hard to justify expending the immense resources required to build new cities, and a single city empire could become a suprisingly effective strategy.

I think this NES's current economic model really encourages the player to found new cities once their current ones become too expensive to improve, and I think this is an excellent part of the game since it offers the player many alternative paths to a strong empire. If the workforce costs hit any kind of plateau, cities will drastically decrease in value and marches will become practically worthless compared to outposts. I think the current system is simple, but elegant in the way it forces the player to expand - I've never felt that the system was too restricting to one path or the other, even when I was stuck with just one city. Personally, I would keep the workforce cost increase as the current linear model, but reduce the price of each workforce as Immac suggested.
 
I think the farming, hunting, mining etc limits could replace workforce cost as the limitting factor quite easilly. They just need to have their effects increased a bit.

After a little while, you would be using the region to it's full capacity, and if you want any more cottages or mines you'd have to build new cities and marches. Workforces would still be needed for buildings, even after this point.
 
Immac, check your PM
 
Ekolite said:
I think the farming, hunting, mining etc limits could replace workforce cost as the limitting factor quite easilly. They just need to have their effects increased a bit.

After a little while, you would be using the region to it's full capacity, and if you want any more cottages or mines you'd have to build new cities and marches. Workforces would still be needed for buildings, even after this point.
Click to expand...

That's true, those limits could be the alternate limiting factor, but I think it still removes the choices from the system by making one path clearly superior to another.

In the current system, it is difficult to decide when building a new city is neccessary; you have to decide how much you are willing to pay for a workforce, and balance the city's massive initial investment against the workforce discount you will receive.

Using the new mathematical model and changing the farming/hunting/mining limits being the limiting factor would remove this interesting choice. Instead, it would nearly always be the best financial strategy to build a city, improve it until you reach the provinical limit, then found a new city and repeat.

Ultimately, I think this type of system would eliminate the viability of several strategies, instead making the only reasonable strategy to consist of building one city at a time, and maxing it out to some artificial limit before building the next one. I greatly prefer less rigid restrictions, that don't force the player to take one path, but instead offer several viable options for the player to consider.
 
i'm glad to see this discussion. please continue.
 
Maybe have a higher and higher volitility with higher populations/workforces.

Even know, I would guess a size 5 city at 10 thousand. That is not a lot. With 10 workforces that will also not reach the plateu reasonably. 10 thousand in ancient times OTL represents first time when specialization actually becomes worth it.

However, if you get 50 Thousand, I guess, for a size 20, then it is different. It is a crowded metropolise, bigger than most greek polises. Larger than many other cities. By the time you reach that information travels fast, mast hysteria often and deadly.

Size 14 or so should be the middle point. I guess 20 thousand at 28 Workforces. After that land starts becoming scarce and a small fire that means nothing due to sparceness of huts can destroy a city.
 
Charles Li said:
Maybe have a higher and higher volitility with higher populations/workforces.

Even know, I would guess a size 5 city at 10 thousand. That is not a lot. With 10 workforces that will also not reach the plateu reasonably. 10 thousand in ancient times OTL represents first time when specialization actually becomes worth it.

However, if you get 50 Thousand, I guess, for a size 20, then it is different. It is a crowded metropolise, bigger than most greek polises. Larger than many other cities. By the time you reach that information travels fast, mast hysteria often and deadly.

Size 14 or so should be the middle point. I guess 20 thousand at 28 Workforces. After that land starts becoming scarce and a small fire that means nothing due to sparceness of huts can destroy a city.
Click to expand...

Not to mention umemployments, diseases, and crime rates
 
Had some free time, so along with dicking around with FFHNESI I made this.

Before you get all worried, there aren't really any effects to this. Except, perhaps, to stability... [shameless plug: take notice, Immac!]


Spoiler :
It was the smells that got to him.


He could still remember everything about those days. The sight of wasting bodies. The sound of a dull spear piercing flesh. The feeling of warm blood on his hands. These he could deal with; it was the smell. Burnt bodies, rotting flesh, diseased sores - the combination made for a truly hellacious experience, and whenever his memeory brought it back to the fore he'd gag.


Like now. It was odd; he imagined that he could know exactly what day he was remembering by it's smell. Today, it was early in the siege. More burning people, slightly less diseased, with just a hint of woodsmoke.

Death should solve these problems. It was was he was good for, but as always in his case, Death was taking a hiatus. So the smell remained, infesting his nasal passages, seeping into even his eyes and mouth. It was hard to see, hard to breathe.

Just another day. Tomorrow would be no better. Death's will or no, his body was an unwilling participant in this extended life, and lost no time in making sure he knew. He felt rather more empathy for his body than for his master, and if it hadn't created this aweful purgatory on it's own he would have tried to create an equally terrible one on his own. Not to make sure he was alive; no, he would do it to remember that he was dead, and not even Death could undo that. Not truly, not completely, not so it mattered.

An interruption forced itself through both the smell and the thoughts. He tried to inhale, coughed instead, and finally released a gasp that was close enough to a question.

"It is time for the First Man to speak, Adam."

Ah, yes. Those names again. In some fit of pity, or perhaps malevolence, Death had told him part of that story. It was, he'd said, a tale from a far-off people, who believed in a sole god (or God, as Death had emphasized) that created all. He had not cared to know of the background, nor had he wanted to hear the story in the first place. All it had done was make him hate the name more, and desire to forget it like all his others. Yet it stayed, as if seared permanently into his mind.

He had, however, noticed that Death neither approved nor disapproved of the odd thought of one high God. He'd often wondered if a prayer to such a deity would be heard, but he'd not chosen to try. He already had a sole god, one that ruled him truly and forever. One that ruled all of Erebus already, or at least the important parts of it. He knew this for truth; odd that it did not seem to be so evident to others. One's death (Death?) gave one a clearer sight.

But... this other man had spoke. Time, he had said. Time mattered not; it was only the barest pause between death and death again. Even Shades, who should know this so clearly, often seemed to mistake time for something that mattered. He forgave them, since he had done the same, once. It was easy to fall into the trap of believing time controlled anything.

He rose, and followed the minion. His body seemed to do so of it's own accord, as his mind was too preoccupied to be concerned with controlling such actions. As always, he thought only of questions of life and death, purpose and Death, times past and times future. The present was never a major issue, and as for ruling, what care had he? The nation would exist, just as he, despite it's own best efforts to do otherwise. Death would make it so.

Some wiseass had designed the podium. Skulls grinned out at the crowd, gleaming unnaturally white, and hidden among the bones was a small tube that dripped a red liquid. It gave a stark contrast to the polished skeletons, and though the nearby observers reassured themselves it surely wasn't blood it definitely looked like it. Of course, none of those observers were well-experienced to judge, while those that were didn't care at all. What the people who would know cared about was getting rid of those other observers, or bringing them about to their point of view.

Adam passed the minion now, and ascended to the bone-and-blood podium. He didn't care about what the liquid was either, but mostly that was because he hadn't noticed it. His mind was still preoccupied, though it had temporarily recognized the general surroundings and accepted them.

He spoke, again seeminly without his mind being involved. He was sure it had to be, since even Death could not control a man's body. That was the Clown King's jurisdiction, not that anyone else here knew of such a figure as anything other than a dim legend. He knew better, but the Momus was not anything to worry about anymore.

Cheers rose from before him, and on a whim he tried to remember what he'd said to elicit them. Sure enough, he came up with nothing. A mental shrug, then back to the important things. He kept talking, too - mostly to occupy his mouth, to keep it from gagging over that smell that refused to go away. Burnt bodies, diseased, rot, death, Death...



Behind him, that annoying minion bent over to speak to another beside him.

"I don't know how in the hells he does it. He never uses notes, he never writes a speech, and yet he comes out like this every time. Perfect delivery, never makes a mistake, and damn if he doesn't have some of those people ready to sacrifice themselves for him. Right now, even I'd almost do it, and I hear it every day."

The other man gave a small smile. "The blessing of Death, perhaps?" A laugh. "No, if I had to guess I'd say it's the Elder Shade in him. He's lived for so long, he's an expert at everything. Even speeches. He doesn't have to think about it at all, anymore."

"I guess I buy that." The minion looked at Adam, still speaking on the podium. "But do you think that expertise extends to politics? He doesn't seem to care what we do, so long as we respect the few orders he does give, but what if that's just a pose? What if he's more connected than we think?"

"That's fooli..." The other man looked at Adam with new eyes, too. "Well, maybe not foolish, but unlikely. He mutters only about death all day; what does he care of the affairs of the living? No, Death rules him, and Death knows that we serve his causes."

"If you say so. Why couldn't Old Bones have picked a more... convenient... ruler? Why him?"

"Hells if I know. Perhaps the Priest does, but even if that's true he's not telling either. Probably be he can do stuff like this, and because he does creep the hell out of the rest of us."

"True that, pal. True that..."


I have seen death, and I have seen life. They are much the same. Death is, perhaps, less bothersome to endure. Probably not.

canta 3, verse 12, Proverbs of Adam
 
orange inspired me to write a little something religious myself. thx for that.

Spoiler :
Madoc wandered the wastes of the world searching for the golden path. In his travels he came across a village in the Valley of the Pure. The people of the town greeted him. They welcomed him into their homes with great hospitality. Madoc was overwhelmed with their kindness, and decided to stay.

Within one cycle of the full moon he burnt the village to the ground, slaying all but three of the villagers. The first was a dwarven merchant, who had grown rich peddling his falsely precious jewels. The second was a beautiful young woman, and the fairest of all in the village. All of the men greatly desired her, and she played upon their desires for her own gain. The third was an old crone, who was shunned by every other person who had lived in the village.

Madoc pointed the Tainted Sword at each them and asked “Why should I let you live?” The dwarf spoke first, “I have great riches. I have hidden them in the forest, so they have not been buried beneath the rubble of my burnt home. I will
take you to it and all my life’s work can be yours.”

Madoc spoke, “The riches of the earth are meaningless. Blessed is he who forsakes all of the precious things of the world, for the trinkets of Kilmorph will not fulfil her empty promises.” Madoc slew the dwarf. He then turned to the fairest young woman of the village and asked, “Why should I let you live?”

The beautiful young woman replied, “I am the most beautiful woman of the village. Spare me and I shall be yours. I will give you children. They will love you for the rest of your days and more. Spare me and I shall love you ‘til my dying breath.”

Madoc spoke, “Love is fleeting; hollow without meaning. Blessed is he who forsakes the pleasures of Amatheon. To create life is to waste life. Fair lady, you may love me now. For it will be until your dying breath,” and Madoc slew the young woman. He then pointed the Tainted Sword at the old crone. Madoc put forth to her the same question, “Why should I let you live?”

The old crone, weary from carrying the burden of her long life replied, “If I do not die today then I will die tomorrow, for the only purpose of all things that live is to die. Blessed is he who seeks to serve his purpose, for the great goddess will give unto him oblivion: most high of all rewards.” Madoc sheathed his sword, then continued his search for the golden path.

- The Black Book of Ceridwen
 
Well since I obviously cannot write about religions (no duh,) maybe I should write about the origins of each important members in my stories... I got an idea for Reya and Gaia, no idea for Hadel and Ley-Beresa though
 
Okay, so i have come to a decision regarding the workforces.
Its mostly based on:
  • general approval of some overhaul of the workforce system (generally feeling is that it is too expensive- prohibitively so)
  • master of disaster makes an excellent point that if an early cap is placed on the cost of workforces players will not want to expand beyond 3 or 4 cities and this should be a viable economic option (if you can get a good administration value)
  • I tried to tweak the formula provided by Hbar so that the cap would be about twice what it is now but that made the cost of earlier workforces even more expensive,

So, ultimately, I will be reverting to the previously outlined costs for workforces of 4/level for agricultural, 8/level for domestic commerce and industry and 12 per level for trade.

This takes effect immediately, which means any new workforces you buy this turn will cost according to the formula provided here.

I hope this suits everyone and if there are any problems please don’t hesitate to suggest solution to them.
 
Immaculate said:
...
  1. I tried to tweak the formula provided by Hbar so that the cap would be about twice what it is now but that made the cost of earlier workforces even more expensive,
Click to expand...
The trick is to modify top and mod simultaneously. For example, top=8 and mod=1.1, for a base cost of 5 goes (5,8,11,14,16) but tops out at 40
So, ultimately, I will be reverting to the previously outlined costs for workforces of 4/level for agricultural, 8/level for domestic commerce and industry and 12 per level for trade.
Click to expand...
That said, I like this idea better. Its simple, and you always know how much the next will cost.
 
Origns of the Abysswalkers

Everyone I meet affects me inside, some more and some less. Sometimes people just do not seem to notice this. To some people, the ones that change you drastically could well number into the hundreds, to some people there may only be one. The point is that there are always some people that will change you. Let me tell you about some of the experiences that changed me…

Spoiler :
Fire, Fire was where it all began…

Screams filled the air, but the roar of the flames soon drowned them out.

A group of shades watched this from the distance, but there was no emotion in their eyes.

A Hallowed warrior suddenly burst out of the flames, only to be killed by a young shade with a daft stroke of his sword. The young shade kicked away the body of the man and watched the flames again.

“Seems to me that you scored your first kill, rookie.” Said the voice behind the young shade.

The young shade turned around to see a battle hardened shade behind him, and then finally seemed to notice the body laid out in front of him.

“Yes, it seems like it,” the young shade replied. “What do you want anyways?” asked the young shade again.

“I want you to tell me how you felt when you killed that man.” Replied the old shade. “Some people said that they only felt hatred against the enemy, and some felt sadness as they killed them, what did you feel?”

“I felt nothing.”

The old shade cocked his head. “Surely you must have felt something?”

“No, I felt nothing, but now I feel sadness, disgusted, and hatred.”

“The old shade nodded. “It’s alright boy, I had some shades have delayed emotion with mixed feelings, but…”

“You don’t understand.” Interrupted the young shade. “Its not against the enemy, it is against me.”

And the shade suddenly turned away from the group and walked away. The old shade started after him. “Wait! Where are you going?”

The young-shade turned around. “I am leaving, this place has nothing left for me.”

“At least tell me your name, boy.” Said the old-shade.

“My name?” the young-shade seemed amused. “I don’t remember my name anymore, I did when I walked into that forest, but now I don’t anymore, if there was anything left of my old name, then it probably is somewhere inside the fire, good luck finding it though.”

And the young-shade left, but the old-shade remembered their encounter.

…..

Three hours later, I found myself walking through the undisturbed part of the forest. I stopped by at the face to drink and to wash the soot off my face. I looked into the water and found a man with jet-black hair staring back at me. Then any remnants I had of my old life was vanquished, and a new existence took over me.

…

“Hey, why don’t we stop by at that spring over there?”

“Sure, why not.”

A group of travelers walked through the Hallowed Forest.

“Let’s sit here for a while.”

“Okay, I’ll find some firewood for the night.”

“All right.”

And the first traveler rose and went to the tree. He suddenly stopped gathering twigs and cocked his head to one side.

“Hey take a look at this.”

“What is it?”

The second traveler walked over to the first to see what he was pointing at. He was pointing at a word, no it was a name.

Hadel

…

There is no such thing as a ‘holy warrior’ or ‘warriors fighting for a cause. In the end, it makes no difference, the gods will point at the pile of body and laugh.
-Hadel
 
To the Player I sent a message to:
If you haven't answered my PM tomorrow, I'll consider you haven't taken any action and will act and write a story accordingly. If you answer, I'll write and do something else.
It would be nice to answer such PMs when you have time to post in this thread.
 
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