Disrupting trade with privateers
- Thread starter ABHPage
- Start date
Zack
99% hot gas
When you press the blockade button, it blockades a decent sized area, giving you some gold each turn from the blockaded trade routes.
Zack
99% hot gas
JonathanStrange
PrinceWithA1000Enemies
I've blockaded an enemy's capitol with privateers and destroyed roads leading to it; however the enemy's adjacent to a river along which its other cities lie. Are they still connected to the capitol? Their national boundaries no longer cover all the river, btw, if that makes a difference.
Yesterday after figuring out myself what privateers are doing, I've switched my shore production city to building only privateers. I must have around 20 now pillaging the world, effectively giving me more income than my own commerce.
Now that I know it also prevents those city from using water tiles (hence less tech beakers) I think I'll pump out 20 more !!!
Now that I know it also prevents those city from using water tiles (hence less tech beakers) I think I'll pump out 20 more !!!
Ghpstage
Deity
City setup Here we see 3 cities set up on a large island,
Seoul is connected to Wonsan by both coast and road and to Pyangong by river and coast
Each city has a different resource
Seoul - Iron
Wonsan - Copper
Pyangong - Horses
As shown here
Each has connections to both other cities.
First Privateer
The privateer is 4 squares away from the city.
The city tile is not inside the blockade zone!
This setup does NOT affect the city itself, what it does do however is block sea square tile usage and any routes that can only go through. In this case it blocks no trade routes at all as both can pass over either road or river. In this case no gold is gained by the privateer!
Second Privateer
The second privateer is again 4 squares away from the city, this city however relies on the coast to reach the river and as coast links are severed this city loses both trade routes and both extra resources.
This is shown here
The trade network is to this city destroyed, again though no gold is gained from this blockade!!!!!
3rd privateer
This time the privateer is 3 squares from the city and the blockade lands on the city tile!
This city is connected to both other cities via land/river/coast routes.
This is the city under the effect of this blockade.
Notice how all
generating trade routes (even land ones) have vanished, while the resources are still available the trade network is still intact.
This is also the only case so far that the privateer will give you gold
Last case
In this blockade the privateer covers no sea squares worked by the city and does not have any no contact with any trade route.
The blockade goes entirely though land!
I turned the square at the bottom left into coast to show where the blockade gets too
This is the effect.
Again trade routes are oddly removed and we get gold for doing it.
Resources are still available to the city regardless
Privateer blockades while at peace work in two ways
1) The usually way of blocking trade networks preventing any resources and trade being gained in that city. This does not even need to be remotely close to a city, it can be done half way around the world if you want to. This is how all ships blockades work during war.
2) It shuts down a cities generating trade routes while leaving the network in tact and gaining gold for doing it. This requires only that your blockade covers the city square and that the city is coastal.
If you declare war however job 2) stops working.
Also while you do shut down trade with 2) it is for that city only, other cities can still have generating routes with the blockaded city.
I'm not entirely sure how gold you gain is calculated but I know it's 1
per trade route (including Great Lighthouse routes) but if other modifiers such as intercontinental trade or harbors have any effect I don't know.
I think the you get is the total of all base from all routes before modifiers.
**Note I did forget to give Astronomy to Korea though it wouldn't have made any difference (he does have sailing though)
Seoul is connected to Wonsan by both coast and road and to Pyangong by river and coast
Each city has a different resource
Seoul - Iron
Wonsan - Copper
Pyangong - Horses
As shown here
Each has connections to both other cities.
First Privateer
The privateer is 4 squares away from the city.
The city tile is not inside the blockade zone!
This setup does NOT affect the city itself, what it does do however is block sea square tile usage and any routes that can only go through. In this case it blocks no trade routes at all as both can pass over either road or river. In this case no gold is gained by the privateer!
Second Privateer
The second privateer is again 4 squares away from the city, this city however relies on the coast to reach the river and as coast links are severed this city loses both trade routes and both extra resources.
This is shown here
The trade network is to this city destroyed, again though no gold is gained from this blockade!!!!!
3rd privateer
This time the privateer is 3 squares from the city and the blockade lands on the city tile!
This city is connected to both other cities via land/river/coast routes.
This is the city under the effect of this blockade.
Notice how all
generating trade routes (even land ones) have vanished, while the resources are still available the trade network is still intact.This is also the only case so far that the privateer will give you gold
Last case
In this blockade the privateer covers no sea squares worked by the city and does not have any no contact with any trade route.
The blockade goes entirely though land!
I turned the square at the bottom left into coast to show where the blockade gets too
This is the effect.
Again trade routes are oddly removed and we get gold for doing it.
Resources are still available to the city regardless
Privateer blockades while at peace work in two ways
1) The usually way of blocking trade networks preventing any resources and trade
being gained in that city. This does not even need to be remotely close to a city, it can be done half way around the world if you want to. This is how all ships blockades work during war.2) It shuts down a cities
generating trade routes while leaving the network in tact and gaining gold for doing it. This requires only that your blockade covers the city square and that the city is coastal.If you declare war however job 2) stops working.
Also while you do shut down trade
with 2) it is for that city only, other cities can still have generating routes with the blockaded city. I'm not entirely sure how gold you gain is calculated but I know it's 1
per trade route (including Great Lighthouse routes) but if other modifiers such as intercontinental trade or harbors have any effect I don't know.I think the
you get is the total of all base from all routes before modifiers.**Note I did forget to give Astronomy to Korea though it wouldn't have made any difference (he does have sailing though)
Attachments
JonathanStrange
PrinceWithA1000Enemies
Excellent examples, Ghpstage! I think it covers it explains every question I have or could have.
Very powerful are privateers! I rarely built them 'cause frigates seem to crush 'em like aluminum cans, but they look like they're worth having!
Very powerful are privateers! I rarely built them 'cause frigates seem to crush 'em like aluminum cans, but they look like they're worth having!
Zack
99% hot gas
You can put a frigate over your privateer
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here, but this would essentially defeat the purpose of Privateers.
Ghpstage
Deity
After a little more testing
-A privateer needs to be able to reach the city without having to pass through one of your cities or forts
Example
In this example the privateer can reach Uppsala directly but cannot reach Nidaros without passing through my own city or forts as such only Uppsala is affected.
Interestingly it seems you do not need to know of a way to reach the city, just be able to (tested with long continent and without exploration)
I think we can call this the open seas rule
**Edit Privateer blockades can pass right through sea ice tiles regardless probably same reason as the infinite ice canal is possible with forts (ice being over seawater).
-If a Privateer actually cuts the trade network it still gains, to me this seemed weird at first, how can it make gold if theres nothing there to get!?.
After a little fiddling around I found that the you gain is directly linked to the maximum possible trade routes also shown by the above example in that I am gaining 8 while there are only 2 Viking cities.
I had given Ragnar currency, Great Lighthouse, Castle, Citadel and other things in Worldbuilder. In total it allowed 8 trade routes.
I bumped up population later to test how this affects the situation.
Picture
Here each trade route is worth 4 to the city after modifiers.
With 8*4=32 I can be pretty certain the gained is equal to the total of all possible trade routes after modifiers regardless of if they exist.
I tested this by making Nidaros large enough to generate 5 per turn per route but only having 4 routes max test is shown here
The above means that if you cut the trade network to a city, you still gain the same and that gained is independent of actual trade routes it seems. It would seem though that if your killing the cities population you will gain lower amounts of over time.
Also noticed that if you sever a trade network from another city while privateer special blockading the city you disconnect:
-When the blockade is ended (it dies or you move it) the trade network is immediately restored the second the blockade is lifted.
-But the blocked trade route effect on the city the privateer is affecting directly stays until the next turn.
The other largley neglected use of a privateer is blockading in the middle of 'nowhere' to break intercontinental trade networks.
The setup
Here the two mainland cities are providing the island city with iron, and 2 trade routes
I've only allowed Ragnar to have sailing for this, astronomy would make giving an example way to complicated, I have used this very successfully on archipelago maps post astro though.
So with a privateer blockading between we get this
I think it obvious that it affects all international trades too.
I attempted a little example but I can''t get 2 AI's to trade a resource for a resource
The scenario
The trade
For a privateer at peace this would obviously block the trade.
Using a frigate I declared war on Ceasar the wheat still went to Ragnar, It was however blocked when I declared on Ragnar. The privateer however acted like the frigate toward whoever I warred with, but also prevented trade the other way as a privateer.
I wish I could test the effects on a, say iron for copper trade, but the AI won't seem to trade anything for another resource when I try. I want to see if it will physically cancel the deal and put an end to the "We appreciate the years you supplied us with resources" diplo boost. All though the fact that the Roman city Antium got its wheat back when the blockade stopped it seems promising.
In certain cases it may be possible to block effectively all intercontinental trade using privateers that are nowhere near rivals cities! In theory this could be abused, you can actually channel the blockade to make your cities the only ones that can be traded with
. How doable/effective this can be though I have no idea.
-A privateer needs to be able to reach the city without having to pass through one of your cities or forts
Example
In this example the privateer can reach Uppsala directly but cannot reach Nidaros without passing through my own city or forts as such only Uppsala is affected.
Interestingly it seems you do not need to know of a way to reach the city, just be able to (tested with long continent and without exploration)
I think we can call this the open seas rule
**Edit Privateer blockades can pass right through sea ice tiles regardless probably same reason as the infinite ice canal is possible with forts (ice being over seawater).
-If a Privateer actually cuts the trade network it still gains
, to me this seemed weird at first, how can it make gold if theres nothing there to get!?.After a little fiddling around I found that the
you gain is directly linked to the maximum possible trade routes also shown by the above example in that I am gaining 8 while there are only 2 Viking cities.I had given Ragnar currency, Great Lighthouse, Castle, Citadel and other things in Worldbuilder. In total it allowed 8 trade routes.
I bumped up population later to test how this affects the situation.
Picture
Here each trade route is worth 4
to the city after modifiers.With 8*4=32 I can be pretty certain the
gained is equal to the total of all possible trade routes after modifiers regardless of if they exist.I tested this by making Nidaros large enough to generate 5
per turn per route but only having 4 routes max test is shown hereThe above means that if you cut the trade network to a city, you still gain the same
and that gained is independent of actual trade routes it seems. It would seem though that if your killing the cities population you will gain lower amounts of over time.Also noticed that if you sever a trade network from another city while privateer special blockading the city you disconnect:
-When the blockade is ended (it dies or you move it) the trade network is immediately restored the second the blockade is lifted.
-But the blocked trade route effect on the city the privateer is affecting directly stays until the next turn.
The other largley neglected use of a privateer is blockading in the middle of 'nowhere' to break intercontinental trade networks.
The setup
Here the two mainland cities are providing the island city with iron, and 2 trade routes
I've only allowed Ragnar to have sailing for this, astronomy would make giving an example way to complicated, I have used this very successfully on archipelago maps post astro though.
So with a privateer blockading between we get this
I think it obvious that it affects all international trades too.
I attempted a little example but I can''t get 2 AI's to trade a resource for a resource
The scenario
The trade
For a privateer at peace this would obviously block the trade.
Using a frigate I declared war on Ceasar the wheat still went to Ragnar, It was however blocked when I declared on Ragnar. The privateer however acted like the frigate toward whoever I warred with, but also prevented trade the other way as a privateer.
I wish I could test the effects on a, say iron for copper trade, but the AI won't seem to trade anything for another resource when I try
. I want to see if it will physically cancel the deal and put an end to the "We appreciate the years you supplied us with resources" diplo boost. All though the fact that the Roman city Antium got its wheat back when the blockade stopped it seems promising.In certain cases it may be possible to block effectively all intercontinental trade using privateers that are nowhere near rivals cities! In theory this could be abused, you can actually channel the blockade to make your cities the only ones that can be traded with
. How doable/effective this can be though I have no idea.Attachments
Ghpstage
Deity
You can put a frigate over your privateer
For some odd reason yet the AI has only attacked one of my privateers. Anyway I wouldn't really mind losing some as they take 2 turns to build.
You can put your ships over your privateers if you want, but the enemy can still attack them without declaring war on you.
In multiplayer yes, it would obviously show who the owner is. The use of privateers wouldn't be prevented though just might bring a large stack to your borders!
The AI on the other hand doesn't realise the privateer is owned by whoever owns the stack. In fact there are some pics on the forums showing the AI actually doing this itself, well in the rare instance it actually builds one.
Zack
99% hot gas
Ahh, I see. So wouldn't slapping a frigate on top of a privateer make it impossible for the AI to get to your Privateer, then?
If so, that's AWESOME!!! Ghpstage
Deity
Ahh, I see. So wouldn't slapping a frigate on top of a privateer make it impossible for the AI to get to your Privateer, then?
No it doesn't, it just doesn't realise that It's your privateer. Any human player would notice immediately! They can still kill it in the same way that you can walk on the same square as rivals units without declaring war.
In civ 3 however this was a problem, think its why they created the new system.
Zack
99% hot gas
So could you move your frigate into enemy territory, even if you're not at war and don't have open borders, if you have it in the same stack as a privateer?
Ghpstage
Deity
No I think your misunderstanding.
Any human seeing a privateer in a stack will be able to identify who owns the privateer immediately (and probably send a nice stack to your borders), in short the AI can't, it's too dumb. Also the frigate cannot defend the privateer from a rival unless your at war with the rival that is attacking it, and war isn't privateers best job anyway.
The thing you describe is similar to a rather gamebreaking exploit in civ 3 thats been fixed (thank god) for civ 4.
Zack
99% hot gas
Okay, gotcha.
No it wouldn't as you can't blockade in peacetime with a Frigate or get any gold from it. It wouldn't do any good though as the AI can still attack the Privateer even if it's being covered by the Frigate. I learned that the hard way.
Similar threads
