davidlallen
Deity
What should we try to capture, to make it feel more like the books?
Dune Wars Mod
- Thread starter keldath
- Start date
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
I'll have a play with this soon. We can probably have something to make it bit more interesting with some dust/gas cloud effects maybe.
Personally, I am really keen to make the unit art authentic. Obviously, there is always artistic interpretation and personal taste involved. My plans unit art wise are roughly like this:
1) Get the worm release-worthy. (Not too far off)
2) Reskin/remodel some of the early game units (Scout, Colony Pod, etc) to make them fit the dune feel.
3) Port this Ornithopter model into the game with flapping animation.
4) Create custom Fremen/Fedaykin unit with jubba cloak, stillsuit, etc - this unit can then be married with the worm to make a proper worm rider.
On feedback: it is more constructive for you to be specific about particular elements that you feel are not consistent with the books i.e. this unit should look more like ..., this should be this colour ..., this mechanic should work like this.... At the moment, you are being a bit vague for us to take action. We all want the mod to be Dunish, so if there are specifics you feel are breaking the Dune atmospheric then please share them.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
I noticed a couple of issues yesterday:
1) If you click the grid overlay icon you get a CTD. You then have to load vanilla or another mod and switch grid off again to get dune wars working again. I'm guessing this is to do with the new desert textures, could be a typo in an XML or a missing texture file.
2) The faction name should be Atreides not Artreidis.
1) If you click the grid overlay icon you get a CTD. You then have to load vanilla or another mod and switch grid off again to get dune wars working again. I'm guessing this is to do with the new desert textures, could be a typo in an XML or a missing texture file.
2) The faction name should be Atreides not Artreidis.
Yes, i still have to make grid terrain.
Sure, I can do it.
Gimp + dds plugin.
- - - -
I made my own attempt to create a spice harvest concept.
It's similar to davidlallen's work but much simplier:Spice plant feature (jungle) is now generated on ocean terrain. I modified the workboat to harvest that feature. You only have to move the workboat (renamed to spice harvester) on top of a spice plant and press the 'harvest' button (that one with the ax). When finished you will get some money. If you don't like to micromanage, you can also try the automate_build button. The harvester will look for nearest spice feature and chop it!
http://uploaded.to/file/r3af3l
This is only a proof of concept. I did'nt looked too much into ai behaviour and there aren't any safety checks when unit is moving, it won't break work/path even next to a sand worm... tough guys.
davidlallen
Deity
I tried out a game or two to see how my collector mechanic worked. I didn't like it very much. It feels sort of Dunish, but it's too much work, and if I automate it, then it's too little work. Also having three separate *bonuses* makes fixing the tech tree too hard. So as it is, I already consider this prototype a failure. The spice blow and deterioration part seems OK so far.
I will try out another concept. I can either use multiple features, or feature varieties, to cover the three levels of spice, but merge them into a single bonus. Also I will introduce an improvement which can be built on the bonus which is "Spice Collector". So when spice appears, you rush a worker unit there to build the improvements, along with some thopter/scout units as sentries. Then you get the bonus coming in. I may have to adjust how often the blows happen since going from a few improvements to *zero* improvements will affect what you can build. With this model, the corporations keldath added may be helpful in converting into gold.
I mentioned earlier about a CTD which happened when I tried to use my own featureinfos. I have investigated more about that in the revdcm code and now I understand better. See this post if you want more details. Now I should be able to replace fallout to its original job. I have to check a few more things, but at least it doesn't worry me anymore.
Great! There is a "chicken and egg" problem between unit art and popularity. A mod can't really get popular without unique unit art, but a mod which isn't popular doesn't attract artists. Having a few signature units will really kick it off.
Not sure if you had a chance to see the "egyptian" units mechaerik built me, you can see a screenshot at this post a page or so back, and they are in my patch 1.1.1. They replace the dune buggy and colony pod, which I think helps a lot. Reskinning these to add a stillsuit mask, etc may be effective.
I will try out another concept. I can either use multiple features, or feature varieties, to cover the three levels of spice, but merge them into a single bonus. Also I will introduce an improvement which can be built on the bonus which is "Spice Collector". So when spice appears, you rush a worker unit there to build the improvements, along with some thopter/scout units as sentries. Then you get the bonus coming in. I may have to adjust how often the blows happen since going from a few improvements to *zero* improvements will affect what you can build. With this model, the corporations keldath added may be helpful in converting into gold.
I mentioned earlier about a CTD which happened when I tried to use my own featureinfos. I have investigated more about that in the revdcm code and now I understand better. See this post if you want more details. Now I should be able to replace fallout to its original job. I have to check a few more things, but at least it doesn't worry me anymore.
Great! There is a "chicken and egg" problem between unit art and popularity. A mod can't really get popular without unique unit art, but a mod which isn't popular doesn't attract artists. Having a few signature units will really kick it off.
Not sure if you had a chance to see the "egyptian" units mechaerik built me, you can see a screenshot at this post a page or so back, and they are in my patch 1.1.1. They replace the dune buggy and colony pod, which I think helps a lot. Reskinning these to add a stillsuit mask, etc may be effective.
hey guys,
youve been busy havnt you huh?
Deliverator,
im very happy that your in this and helping us,
and having some unique art units could kick this mod higher as david wrote.
i implemented the worm to the current v1.1 , and even without skin it works so cool,
though it attacks abit wierd and dies on the side, but im sure youll refine it later on,
its soo awesome! i just love the dust effect and everything there.
koma,
thanks buddy,
very very interesting concept you have there, we need to test ai behaviour on it, and if its good - we can use it instead of davids system , that he claims as a failure...,
maybe we can take one of the tubers, have an improvement that grows like forest on every terrain and have the spice harvester/collector consume it for money.
we need to test it some more.
great work koma.
the grid issue,
well i know koma didn't do those as he said - but neither did i at first,
maybe koma, you can just remove the grid button form the main interface - do you guys think its that necessary to have a grid art?
david,
maybe for now, we can just use the spice deterioration - spice that is in cultural borders - will get deteriorated, and vanish, and every now and then will re appear with a blow.
the logic - the corporation consume all spice withing cultural borders...so - its logical that it will consume the spice an vanish it right?
maybe this will be a substitute for acttual micromanage of harvesting?
or we can do both options - only that manual unit harvesting springs more money then regular corporate consumption.
so david,
the ctd is caused by the fallout then?
is it present on v1.1 - or only in your patch 1.1.1?
***
while you guys work on the tech stuff that im ignorant of, ill continue on doing things in the xml,
im thinking of adding 3 houses more.
david, koma, delivirator:
i was thinking of simplifying davids excellent wind trap code that allows an improvement to spread water,
and making it as an sdk component - i know more python code will cause more slowness, so
if anyone of you can take alook here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=323525
and make it work - perhaps it will be easier - and safer for us - due to the fallout thingy david reported.
would be easier just to have a tag for improvements that supplies water.
youve been busy havnt you huh?
Deliverator,
im very happy that your in this and helping us,
and having some unique art units could kick this mod higher as david wrote.
i implemented the worm to the current v1.1 , and even without skin it works so cool,
though it attacks abit wierd and dies on the side, but im sure youll refine it later on,
its soo awesome! i just love the dust effect and everything there.
koma,
thanks buddy,
very very interesting concept you have there, we need to test ai behaviour on it, and if its good - we can use it instead of davids system , that he claims as a failure...,
maybe we can take one of the tubers, have an improvement that grows like forest on every terrain and have the spice harvester/collector consume it for money.
we need to test it some more.
great work koma.
the grid issue,
well i know koma didn't do those as he said - but neither did i at first,
maybe koma, you can just remove the grid button form the main interface - do you guys think its that necessary to have a grid art?
david,
maybe for now, we can just use the spice deterioration - spice that is in cultural borders - will get deteriorated, and vanish, and every now and then will re appear with a blow.
the logic - the corporation consume all spice withing cultural borders...so - its logical that it will consume the spice an vanish it right?
maybe this will be a substitute for acttual micromanage of harvesting?
or we can do both options - only that manual unit harvesting springs more money then regular corporate consumption.
so david,
the ctd is caused by the fallout then?
is it present on v1.1 - or only in your patch 1.1.1?
***
while you guys work on the tech stuff that im ignorant of, ill continue on doing things in the xml,
im thinking of adding 3 houses more.
david, koma, delivirator:
i was thinking of simplifying davids excellent wind trap code that allows an improvement to spread water,
and making it as an sdk component - i know more python code will cause more slowness, so
if anyone of you can take alook here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=323525
and make it work - perhaps it will be easier - and safer for us - due to the fallout thingy david reported.
would be easier just to have a tag for improvements that supplies water.
davidlallen
Deity
Let me explain again. It is not present in either 1.1 or 1.1.1; I would not have released anything with such a bad crash. The crash happens when you *add* features to xml/terrain/civ4featureinfos.xml, unless you follow certain undocumented rules. Now I have discovered the rules, so in 1.1.2 (or whatever) I can add features safely.
The fallout thingie is *solved*. If somebody wants to make the windtrap into an sdk element, of course I have no objection. But Maniac has posted some issues related to all-terrain units, which is critical, and I think any sdk folks should concentrate on that first.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
I discovered some discrimination against canMoveAllTerrain units in the unit upgrade code. I've changed it. Haven't tested it myself yet though:
In
there's a line
I've changed that to
There's also this line
I've changed it to
In
Code:
CvCity* CvUnit::getUpgradeCity(UnitTypes eUnit, bool bSearch, int* iSearchValue) constthere's a line
Code:
bool bCoastalOnly = (getDomainType() == DOMAIN_SEA);I've changed that to
Code:
bool bCoastalOnly = (getDomainType() == DOMAIN_SEA && !canMoveAllTerrain());There's also this line
Code:
// if not same area, not as good (lower numbers are better)
if (iArea != pLoopCity->getArea() && (!bCoastalOnly || iArea != pWaterArea->getID()))I've changed it to
Code:
if (!canMoveAllTerrain() && iArea != pLoopCity->getArea() && (!bCoastalOnly || iArea != pWaterArea->getID()))Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
@david: Your plan sounds like a decent way forward. Can we make the Spice Collector improvement a Harvester and have the worm attack it? What would be the purpose of having the scout ornithopters? - you can't recover an improvement in the same way you would a unit...
I think Koma did say he was going to make Maniac's SDK change.
Also, I haven't read up on this corporations concept, but it could be interesting to model the different uses of spice with corporations (this may already be the idea):
Corp 1: Spice enables space travel = Spice -> Gold (from sales to the Spacing Guild - you could actually call it the Spacing Guild but it's already a faction...)
Corp 2: Spice expands consciousness = Spice -> Research
Corp 3: Spice extends lifespan = Spice -> Food (for population increase)
(At some point I should read over all the design thread... but it would take me a while.
)
I think Koma did say he was going to make Maniac's SDK change.
Also, I haven't read up on this corporations concept, but it could be interesting to model the different uses of spice with corporations (this may already be the idea):
Corp 1: Spice enables space travel = Spice -> Gold (from sales to the Spacing Guild - you could actually call it the Spacing Guild but it's already a faction...)
Corp 2: Spice expands consciousness = Spice -> Research
Corp 3: Spice extends lifespan = Spice -> Food (for population increase)
(At some point I should read over all the design thread... but it would take me a while.
)
davidlallen
Deity
The corps in 1.1 are just standard corporations, each civ has its own but they are all the same. They produce gold based on how many spice resources you control. You could think of this as a "gold amplifier"; otherwise you either have spice or you don't. The corp gives you more gold as you control more spice. The corporation has a lot more gameplay elements around it, but that was the key point I believe keldath wanted to get.
The worm will already destroy improvements, as will sandstorms. The purpose of scout ornithopters is to increase your scouting range like fogbusters. While you cannot recover improvements, you will probably have a worker unit there to create the improvements since the blows appear randomly; so the worker and the transport could be retrieved once a sandworm/storm is sighted.
The worm will already destroy improvements, as will sandstorms. The purpose of scout ornithopters is to increase your scouting range like fogbusters. While you cannot recover improvements, you will probably have a worker unit there to create the improvements since the blows appear randomly; so the worker and the transport could be retrieved once a sandworm/storm is sighted.
azzedar
Warlord
i don't like the way spice harvesting is handled in the new patch. it may feel a bit like playing c&c or the dune game ... sending harvesters to randomly appearing spice fields. but it doesn't fit well to civ4. i absolutely don't like it.
although it may not be as appropriate to the 'real' farming mechanics - but civ4 didn't matched that either - it would be better to have it as a normal rescource (appearing and high chance to appear together? maybe like dye and sugar from vanilla) which can be very heavily (ab)used by buildings, corporations, units etc. (why not 'steal' the +affinity for x,y,z thing from fall from heaven for something and rework it for spice?).
although it may not be as appropriate to the 'real' farming mechanics - but civ4 didn't matched that either - it would be better to have it as a normal rescource (appearing and high chance to appear together? maybe like dye and sugar from vanilla) which can be very heavily (ab)used by buildings, corporations, units etc. (why not 'steal' the +affinity for x,y,z thing from fall from heaven for something and rework it for spice?).
hey guys,
as david said, the current corp system is still not that balance i was trying more to demonstrate how we can harness it to spice.
azzedar,
hi and welcome,
well patch 1.1.1 is kinda experimental, so i would suggest to play with version 1.1 only, is has normal spice resources.
maniac,
thanks again buddy.
as david said, the current corp system is still not that balance i was trying more to demonstrate how we can harness it to spice.
azzedar,
hi and welcome,
well patch 1.1.1 is kinda experimental, so i would suggest to play with version 1.1 only, is has normal spice resources.
maniac,
thanks again buddy.
davidlallen
Deity
Thanks for the feedback. Does the way that spice appears and deteriorates seem to match the feel, even if you don't like the collector mechanic? I have written a little more about my plan in this post above. If you have any specific ideas, please let us know. It is still very much under development.
davidlallen
Deity
Grr. I have completely tuned out the battlefield features which were causing the crashes I was experiencing before, and it is stable. But then I replaced the three spice bonuses with three spice features, and it is crashing again.
koma13 or johny, could you compile a debug dll and upload it? The crash stack is pointing at CvPlot::setFeatureType, which I could have figured, but the call stack is invalid. With the debug dll and the sources, I may have a prayer to figure out what is wrong. It is annoying when something like battlefield features gets in the way with undocumented assumptions, and responds by crashing.
(EDIT: nevermind. There are *two* places where battlefield features can be turned on, I just needed to learn about the other one and make sure it is really off.)
koma13 or johny, could you compile a debug dll and upload it? The crash stack is pointing at CvPlot::setFeatureType, which I could have figured, but the call stack is invalid. With the debug dll and the sources, I may have a prayer to figure out what is wrong. It is annoying when something like battlefield features gets in the way with undocumented assumptions, and responds by crashing.
(EDIT: nevermind. There are *two* places where battlefield features can be turned on, I just needed to learn about the other one and make sure it is really off.)
davidlallen
Deity
(EDIT: this patch is obsolete. See patch 1.1.3 at this post.)
I have completed unofficial patch 1.1.2. See this post for contents of patch 1.1.1, which is now obsolete. This patch can be placed on top of the 1.1 release, or on top of the 1.1.1 patch. The difference between 1.1.2 and 1.1.1 is that now there is only one spice "bonus", but it still comes in dense, normal or trace densities. I have removed the collector unit and the concept of filling a collection bag. Instead, you build a desert refinery improvement on the spice, and you get a normal bonus. This should relate to the spice corporations that are already there. So if you get a lot of desert refineries and at least one corporation, you should get a lot of gold.
I have seen the AI build desert refineries.
The patch is here:
http://jendaveallen.com/fury-road/dune-wars-patch-1-1-2.zip
In most of my games recently, I have kept my economy from running into the ground by beelining the Oracle of Hajra. The free tech is nice but the master truthsayer generates +5 gold. With a few GP I get more gold than any other way I have found. This may make the civs that start with Zensunni Teachings the most powerful. At some point I will try one of the civs that doesn't get it, and see if I can keep their economy from running into the ground.
I have completed unofficial patch 1.1.2. See this post for contents of patch 1.1.1, which is now obsolete. This patch can be placed on top of the 1.1 release, or on top of the 1.1.1 patch. The difference between 1.1.2 and 1.1.1 is that now there is only one spice "bonus", but it still comes in dense, normal or trace densities. I have removed the collector unit and the concept of filling a collection bag. Instead, you build a desert refinery improvement on the spice, and you get a normal bonus. This should relate to the spice corporations that are already there. So if you get a lot of desert refineries and at least one corporation, you should get a lot of gold.
I have seen the AI build desert refineries.
The patch is here:
http://jendaveallen.com/fury-road/dune-wars-patch-1-1-2.zip
In most of my games recently, I have kept my economy from running into the ground by beelining the Oracle of Hajra. The free tech is nice but the master truthsayer generates +5 gold. With a few GP I get more gold than any other way I have found. This may make the civs that start with Zensunni Teachings the most powerful. At some point I will try one of the civs that doesn't get it, and see if I can keep their economy from running into the ground.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
Had a little break from the sandworm to address something else that was bothering me: the atmospheric sound. I've got six good quality wind loops - three cave wind and three desert wind. I've created soundscapes in the XML and quickly assigned them to the terrains in what felt like an appropriate way. The cave wind sounds loop when you are over the rock island areas and the desert winds when you are over the desert. I got rid of the bird sounds from the 'forest' too as that seemed jarring. They are long loops, meaning > 1MB files, but I think this is quite effective in adding to the desert planet atmosphere. Provided you haven't got your own changes to the files I've changed you should be able to just apply this as a patch to the mod.
I've not actually got around to downloading the sound add on so these changes were made on the straight 1.1 files - the XML will need to be merged if you want to make them part of the sound pack.
See what you think...
I've not actually got around to downloading the sound add on so these changes were made on the straight 1.1 files - the XML will need to be merged if you want to make them part of the sound pack.
See what you think...
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
A few screenshots as an update/teaser trailer on the sandworm.
1) You can see that I've smoothed out the mesh so it looks much more natural and not so obviously made of triangles.
2) You can see the solution I've gone for the wormsign. It's basically a lump in the sand that emits lots of dust to keep things interesting. In fact you can see the worms are pretty much throwing dust all over the place with every thing they do now. I've tried lots of different things for the wormsign - this is the best looking one that actually works.
3) You can see a couple of combat shots showing the strike and hurt animation. Initially I am only going to have on set of combat animations, but I can add another two combat animations sets for variation later.
The final things I need to do are:
Texture the beast - the mouth is the only bit that might be a bit tricky to get right.
Do a proper Death animation
Add a dust effects to remaining animations.
Add and syncronize sounds to animations.
I'm hopeful that I'll have it done by end of Saturday, then I can do something a bit simpler for a while!
1) You can see that I've smoothed out the mesh so it looks much more natural and not so obviously made of triangles.
2) You can see the solution I've gone for the wormsign. It's basically a lump in the sand that emits lots of dust to keep things interesting. In fact you can see the worms are pretty much throwing dust all over the place with every thing they do now. I've tried lots of different things for the wormsign - this is the best looking one that actually works.
3) You can see a couple of combat shots showing the strike and hurt animation. Initially I am only going to have on set of combat animations, but I can add another two combat animations sets for variation later.
The final things I need to do are:
Texture the beast - the mouth is the only bit that might be a bit tricky to get right.
Do a proper Death animation
Add a dust effects to remaining animations.
Add and syncronize sounds to animations.
I'm hopeful that I'll have it done by end of Saturday, then I can do something a bit simpler for a while!
Attachments
Looks awesome! But what is about teeth?
Here is patch I made:
http://uploaded.to/file/sudb2y
It has all sdk changes suggested by manica except the CvCityAi part mentioned here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8150960&postcount=252. It's significant different from dune wars/better ai dll, don't know how to join it.
I made a quick ai autoplay and saw some transporter assaults with only one unit loaded.
I don't know if new changes are responsible for that, surely needs more testing.
I also included a fix for grid terrain, it shall not crash no more.
Here is patch I made:
http://uploaded.to/file/sudb2y
It has all sdk changes suggested by manica except the CvCityAi part mentioned here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8150960&postcount=252. It's significant different from dune wars/better ai dll, don't know how to join it.
I made a quick ai autoplay and saw some transporter assaults with only one unit loaded.
I don't know if new changes are responsible for that, surely needs more testing.I also included a fix for grid terrain, it shall not crash no more.
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