SGOTM 09 - Xteam

The bank in Akkad needs priority over market and grocers because it's a pre-req for Wall Street (which is the primary objective). We can fit the market and grocer in whenever we get a chance.

Argos is probably best focusing on military units, but given the choice between building bank in Pireaus or a mediocre commerce city that was producing 20 hpt I'd go with the 20hpt city.
 
PaulisKhan said:
Corp maintenance:
When a corporation is spread to a city that city incurs a maintenance cost, this maintenance cost is largely dependant on the number of corporation resources controlled (and is non-linear).
Click to expand...

According to this article the corporate maintenance is linear in the number of resources.

PaulisKhan said:
Re Standard Ethanol: This corp is only available at Plastics by which time it will be too late to recoup the cost of spreading it.
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Plastics is only 4 techs later than Mining Inc and one of them is Assembly Line that we want anyway. I don't think your conclusion is correct and I would like to see some numbers before deciding on this.

PaulisKhan said:
Sorry for the third post but I've been horribly wrong about something (these game changes are killing me)

We probably want to invest in the Corporation tech BEFORE Railroad. Normally mining inc is secured first because it's a better return than the detour through SM->Bio->Medicine however we already started with the only tech that mattered (Medicine). We should incorporate Sid Sushi asap and get our key cities growing.
Click to expand...

The value of Sushi is marginal. If you look at the maintenance article you will see that maintenance grows linearly with increasing population. So having both Sushi and Mining Inc. in a city is not good because growing the city increases maintenance and that eats the extra yield you get from the additional citizens. Sushi will be an extremely expensive corporation because we have so many resources and with no courthouses in place it will be a sure money looser right now. I suggest we carry on as planned and research Corporation as the last tech in the Mining Inc. beeline thus preserving the gold from the GLH for as long as possible.

Cactus Pete said:
So are you saying that a bank needs to be built there ASAP and the rest can come later?
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As PK says, the bank is the most important building in Akkad, because it's the prerequisite for Wall Street. How urgent it is to build a bank is hard to answer. Each corporate branch generates 4 gpt in the corporate HQ (again - read the article). So Wall Street is worth 4*N gpt, where N is the number of cities the corporation has spread to. Akkad can build it's buildings quite fast because it will get a branch of Mining Inc. when the HQ is founded there. I don't think building a bank in Argos is good - we would loose 100 hammers doing that. There must be other cities available.
 
PaulisKhan said:
I can't argue with the code.

reviewing the tradeoffs on the other discussion points.
Click to expand...

You could say that maintenance grows quadratically with Sushi as the number of resources grow, but that is because the pop of the city will normally grow due to the extra food. And maintenance is proportional to resources x pop.

The pop dependence of maintenance is important to notice because it means that we should - counter intuitively spread Mining Inc to our smallest cities first.

On the Standard Ethanol issue: Remember that we already have massive tech multipliers in many cities so that we can benefit from SE immediately without having to build infrastructure.
 
Frederiksberg said:
You could say that maintenance grows quadratically with Sushi as the number of resources grow, but that is because the pop of the city will normally grow due to the extra food. And maintenance is proportional to resources x pop.
Click to expand...

It doesn't have to be that way though, what we should be doing instead of growing the city is turning more farms into workshops and more windmills to mines (once we swap out of environmentalism). We can also control the number of resources we want for the corp by simply gifting them to our vassal.
 
How many turns would it take Standard Ethanol to repay itself in a 15 pop city? (assuming however many resources we could pick up in the process of obtaining our metals?)
 
PaulisKhan said:
It doesn't have to be that way though, what we should be doing instead of growing the city is turning more farms into workshops and more windmills to mines (once we swap out of environmentalism). We can also control the number of resources we want for the corp by simply gifting them to our vassal.
Click to expand...

Good point. Is it possible to gift multiple instances of the same resource? Like 2 fish or 3 clam?

PaulisKhan said:
How many turns would it take Standard Ethanol to repay itself in a 15 pop city? (assuming however many resources we could pick up in the process of obtaining our metals?)
Click to expand...

It's not that easy to calculate - will return to you later on this. What I can say is that SE will yield 70 bpt in Athens alone. Let's say we can found it with 30 turns left of the game. Then it will yield 2100 beakers in Athens alone. Now you have to subtract maintenance cost and the cost of a GS. Perhaps we are around break even? So the gain would come from spreading it to more cities. A city with Library, University, Observatory and Laboratory will get 40 bpt from SE.

Beelining Plastic after Mining Inc. has the benefit that we could build The 3 Gorges. It's expensive, but with Mining Inc. we are going to want power plants in all cities anyway.
 
"I suggest we carry on as planned and research Corporation as the last tech in the Mining Inc. beeline, thus preserving the gold from the GLH for as long as possible." So research of Corp should come after both RxR and, of course, Economics, or are we now considering going for Plastics first?

Please respond to my posts 1109 and 1112, if only to sign off on them. Also, I'm still unclear on whether it's preferable to capture the sugar city before extorting HC for peace as opposed to waiting 12 plus turns and capturing all HCs remaining cities -- keeping sugar and probably gifting the other two at that later time.
 
Cactus Pete said:
"I suggest we carry on as planned and research Corporation as the last tech in the Mining Inc. beeline, thus preserving the gold from the GLH for as long as possible." So research of Corp should come after both RxR and, of course, Economics, or are we now considering going for Plastics first?
Click to expand...

No, first go for Steam Power then get RR from Liberalism possibly with a detour to Nationalism (for The Taj). Then beeline Corporation and found Mining Inc. After that we are discussing to research Assembly Line - Industrialism - Combustion - Plastics

Cactus Pete said:
Please respond to my posts 1109 and 1112, if only to sign off on them. Also, I'm still unclear on whether it's preferable to capture the sugar city before extorting HC for peace as opposed to waiting 12 plus turns and capturing all HCs remaining cities -- keeping sugar and probably gifting the other two at that later time.
Click to expand...

I would suggest taking the sugar city now and then make peace for Philo and possibly also Guilds. After that immediately turn our attention to Korea. The reason is that logistics are simpler this way and we need to be very careful about keeping attack speed high. Korea only have very few metals and I think we can capture those so we don't need to vassalize. And getting Sushi resources is not a priority - most likely we will have more than we want due to maintenance issues.

Cactus Pete said:
Nippur>granary>chariot Library is a bargain: 6 gpt for only 30 hammers Not a lot of hammers here. Let me get a cheap MP out first and then consider a lib.
Click to expand...

Nippur will get access to two windmills next turn and can be MM'ed for even more hammers. I still think that Library first is best. Otherwise, I like the plan :).

Cactus Pete said:
Workshop on Nippur grassland
Click to expand...

And farm the other grassland so that Nippur can work the hammer tiles in the Babylon FC that will not be used by Babylon when it changes to GP farm mode.
 
Frederiksberg said:
No, first go for Steam Power then get RR from Liberalism possibly with a detour to Nationalism (for The Taj). So Liberalism and RxR before Banking? Then beeline Corporation and found Mining Inc. After that we are discussing to research Assembly Line - Industrialism - Combustion - Plastics Follow that.

I would suggest taking the sugar city now and then make peace for Philo and possibly also Guilds. After that immediately turn our attention to Korea. That's now the plan.

Nippur will get access to two windmills next turn and can be MM'ed for even more hammers. I still think that Library first is best. Okay, I'll look at it again.Otherwise, I like the plan :).

And farm the other grassland so that Nippur can work the hammer tiles in the Babylon FC that will not be used by Babylon when it changes to GP farm mode.
Click to expand...
Will do.....
 
Cactus Pete said:
So Liberalism and RxR before Banking?
Click to expand...

Forgot about this issue. No, we should probably research Banking before Lib so that we can get started on building some banks.

I guess Macchu Pichu and the Sugar city are on the menu before peace.
 
Frederiksberg said:
Forgot about this issue. No, we should probably research Banking before Lib so that we can get started on building some banks.
I guess Macchu Pichu and the Sugar city are on the menu before peace.
Click to expand...
Good . . . I'll try to consolidate my posts and submit a revised tentative plan late tonight, with the intention of then waiting the usual 24 hours for additional feedback before playing.
 
PaulisKhan said:
How many turns would it take Standard Ethanol to repay itself in a 15 pop city? (assuming however many resources we could pick up in the process of obtaining our metals?)
Click to expand...

I made a small example:

Assumptions:
Resources, Res=10
Population, Pop=15
City has courthouse, Library, University, Observatory
Corporate HQ has: Wall Street, bank, market, grocer.
Civic: Free Market

maintenance=0.5*(4+Res)*1.2*0.75*(Pop+17)/18 ~ 11 gpt
HQ income=3*4=12 gpt

Cost of corporate executive: 67 hammers
Cost of spreading corporation: 60 gold

Beakers generated = 2*Res*1.75=35 bpt

In conclusion the maintenance is covered by the earnings in corporate HQ so the net gain is 35 bpt. If we say 1h=1g=2b the start up cost is 2*(60+67)=254 beakers. Divided by 35 bpt the payback time of the investment is 7 turns.
 
Just a reminder to please NOT upgrade to :bts: version 3.19. It will, most likely, not be compatible with the HoF Mod. The Staff will be working on a new version, but it will take a while. As far as I know, this is a bit of a surprise! :eek:

This also includes all BoTM games as well, they will continue to be developed in ver. 3.17.
 
I made another example. This time it's with Sushi for comparison...

For the sake of simplicity I have assumed that all the Sushi food goes in to hired merchants and with 28 resources that means 7 specialists. Thus, the city will need to grow 7 pop. Here's the numbers

Assumptions:
Resources, Res=28
Population, Pop=15 --> 22
City has courthouse, bank
Corporate HQ has: Wall Street, bank, market, grocer.
Civic: Free Market

maintenance=0.5*(4+Res)*1.2*0.75*(Pop+17)/18 ~ 31 gpt
HQ income=3*4=12 gpt

Cost of corporate executive: 67 hammers
Cost of spreading corporation: 60 gold
Cost of bank: 134 hammers

Gold generated = 7*3*1.5=31

In conclusion the maintenance is covered by the gold generated so the net gain is 12 gpt. If we say 1h=1g=2b the start up cost is (60+67+134)=261 gold. Divided by 12 gpt the payback time of the investment is 22 turns + some turns required to grow half way to 7 pop. 26 turns is probably close to the break even point. In cities that already have a bank payback time is a little more than half of this, say 15 turns.

Now, if the city with Sushi also has another corporation with 20 resources the increase in pop will increase maintenance for that corporation by an additional:

Maintenance increase = 0.5*(4+Res2)*1.2*0.75*7/18 ~ 4 gpt

Now the income is reduced to 12-4= 8 gpt and payback time is around 36 turns.

Note that Sushi maintenance without a courthouse is 62 gpt!! That would make Sushi a huge money looser.
 
Frederiksberg said:
I made a small example:

In conclusion the maintenance is covered by the earnings in corporate HQ so the net gain is 35 bpt. If we say 1h=1g=2b the start up cost is 2*(60+67)=254 beakers. Divided by 35 bpt the payback time of the investment is 7 turns.
Click to expand...

Don't forget the 10 oil resources that will be produced from SE that we could trade or sell for additional gpt or other resources. This could shave another turn or two off the payback time.

EDIT: also Std Eth would prohibit Cereal Mills or Sid's in the same city. I should have the worksheet updated for culture and beakers on Friday.
 
Instead of 7 specialists we'd be much better off working 7 plains workshops, or 14 grassland workshops or some permutation of both.
A plains workshop under caste system and outside of a golden age is worth +5 hpt, (+6 hpt in a golden age which we will spend most of the rest of the game in).
So that's 35 (42 GA) raw hpt. If building wealth then multiply that by 25% forge, 25% factory, 25% power which is around 60gpt (70 gpt GA). Not to mention the extra speed with which space ship components could be built, thus maximising the time that the city spends building wealth/research before swapping over to finish off the component.
We can convert gpt into bpt at a rate higher than 1:1 so the gain is even larger.
However we also have to factor in the time spent converting flatlands into workshops and city growth.

The point I'm trying to make though is that the power of sushi is not in growing cities larger and running lots of specialists (as described in the linked articles), but in working more hammer tiles and building wealth. This also has the advantage over Standard Ethanol in that our cities will already be building hammer multipliers for the sake of mining inc, there is no need to double up on beaker multipliers too in order to maximise the effect.

The efficiency is significantly greater if working grassland workshops or mined grassland hills.
 
"Instead of 7 specialists we'd be much better off working 7 plains workshops, or 14 grassland workshops or some permutation of both.
A plains workshop under caste system and outside of a golden age is worth +5 hpt, (+6 hpt in a golden age which we will spend most of the rest of the game in)." IF WE DON'T RUN SPECIALISTS, HOW ARE WE GOING TO REMAIN IN GOLDEN AGES?
 
national park and maybe 1-2 other gp farms will account for almost all of our GP regardless of what strategy we use.
The workshop strategy is for the remaining 90% of our cities.
 
Tentative Plan​

MILITART TACTICS:

JOAO: Will advance our 5 unpromoted paratroopers on Lagos (enough to take it the following turn) and thereby force Joao to decide between re-basing them or attacking with them and then losing them? (Would hold the remaining troopers to heal.) Plan to capture all cities.

HC: Macchu Pichu and the Sugar city are on the menu before peace for Philo and possibly also Guilds. After that immediately turn our attention to Korea, though may turn out it's best to first sail some Inca troops to finish off Joao before moving on to Korea, especially if I deploy newly minted paras against Ham in two turns. (HOW PRESSING IS NEED TO TAKE HAM’S LAST CITY QUICKLY?)

GENERAL TACTICS:

Re banks: “Best places for banks are cities that have surplus food and the ability to run many merchants. Good examples are Cuzco, Babylon and Piraeus and of course the Wall Street city Akkad. Athens is another place where a bank might be profitable.” Plan is to build bank rather than observatory in these cities after Banking comes in, if observatory not already underway. “Piraeus will have some difficulty finishing the bank but we can help by spreading Mining Inc there early on. We need 6 banks so one more city should have a bank.” Maybe one or two of the cities we capture soon?

Will build missionaries only for hammer rich cities that we know must build a lot of infrastructure

Look to start Taj in city(s) other than final placement one in order to produce gold, also Rushmore may be used for this purpose.

Try to find out if Australia has 2 metal resources, which would suggest eventually sending two settlers down there to establish cities to liberate as a new colony.

(IRONWORKS to be left for next turn set, since building in Cuzco or Seoul.)


WORKER ACTIONS:

Convert Bab windmill to mine (6hpt>12)
Take workers off of Bab forest preserve duty and farm Borsippa grassland, in process build road to it
Watermill SE of Babylon converted to a farm
Farm the plains/forest NE of Mycenae to time with possible settler completion
On forest W of Corinth build a lumber mill now that Railroad will soon be available
Chop SE forest to speed forge in Sippar, then farm it
Workshop one Nippur grassland, farm the other
Complete road from Argos to Coimbra
Try to road metals on our home continent when worker available.

MICROMANAGING:
After 1 turn, move Bab citizen off windmill onto farm to grow city
Move Borsippa citizens inland to get granary in 2 turns
Move two Pharsolos citizens off of plains cottages and onto coastal tiles to speed growth
Move merchant specialist to coastal tile to get growth in two turns and GM still in three


Research: Steel>Steam Power>Liberalism>RxR (with Nationalism, possibly Guilds, and Banking researched as soon as war with Incas is completed)> Economics>Corporation

TENTATIVE BUILD PROPOSALS:

Athens>paratrooper>courthouse(1turn)>NE(2 turns)>courthouse
Piraeus>Xbow>missionary > settlers after the GM is born
Delphi>airship>settler
Sparta>airport> NE(1 turn)
Corinth>paratrooper>paratrooper(2turns)>NE(1turn)> finish paratrooper
Thebes>paratrooper>observatory
Argos>paratroopers
Knossos>lighthouse>chariot
Mycenae>paratroopers or settler until converted, then infrastructure
Pharsalos>frigate>missionary>observatory
Ephesus>NE(3turns)>paratrooper or courthouse (as war goes)
Babylon>NP>NE
Akkad>university>missionary>bank
Nippur>granary>chariot or Library
Borsippa>granary>lighthouse> Library
Borsippa>granary> library>lighthouse
Sippar>forge
 
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