No Love for Gilgamesh?

I think his UU is better than most. It needs be considered as an early swordsman, thats not quite as good against archers, but a lot better against axes. It makes a better allround rushing unit (than axes), that comes way earlier than iron units (at a time where axes are few and far between with the AI).

As an AI he annoys the hell out of me, as he usually is a powerhouse, and boxed in he is quite aggressive.

Um...you meant axes and archers the other way around, right?

The ONLY bad thing in my book for Gilgamesh is barbarian axemen(honestly the AI barely ever builds defensive axemen(which are usually battered pretty well collaterally since archers defend against pults), and if he sends a counter stack back to our homeland(which I actually have not seen in the ancient era), you'll have to rely on catapults).

You're pretty much screwed if you don't have horses as Gilgamesh during the time between when the archers stop poking around and swordsmen pop up, unless you have shock swords.
 
You're pretty much screwed if you don't have horses as Gilgamesh during the time between when the archers stop poking around and swordsmen pop up, unless you have shock swords.

No you're not.




@OP: a lot of the vocal high-level players here do like Gilgamesh, and Creative.

I think he's just fine. He's the only AI I remember seeing win domination, granted that I skip a lot of end games. Personally, I like how he calls everyone "puny mortal".
 
I played a great game with him a while back (my last game on Prince before moving up). Easily rushed Shaka, then rexed like crazy. I actually forgot for a long portion of the game that he was protective (I remember thinking, "I know I'm creative. What was my other trait? Oh, protective - does that mean I should research archery at some point?"). I blocked off a lot of land, then later on, was steamrolling over everyone else.

That is, until my 2 enemies left plotted together to get an AP win, even though my tanks were doing very well against their riflemen. Even though the game shows up as a loss in my stats, I still consider it a very good game, and had a very strong respect for Giggles.

The other big thing about the Zig isn't just that it's earlier (even if only marginally some games), but that it's also cheaper. Very solid UB. If only he was organized, it would feel like it was almost free...
 
No you're not.




@OP: a lot of the vocal high-level players here do like Gilgamesh, and Creative.

I think he's just fine. He's the only AI I remember seeing win domination, granted that I skip a lot of end games. Personally, I like how he calls everyone "puny mortal".

What other counter besides the one that I mentioned would work? Suppose that would be different if you have multiple city gaurds, but personally I only usually do that when there is a possibilty for an AI attack, so you have to whip away the population at a most likely inefficient time to make sure that the threat is dealt with, and you will probably lose some tile improvements.
 
Um...you meant axes and archers the other way around, right?

The ONLY bad thing in my book for Gilgamesh is barbarian axemen(honestly the AI barely ever builds defensive axemen(which are usually battered pretty well collaterally since archers defend against pults), and if he sends a counter stack back to our homeland(which I actually have not seen in the ancient era), you'll have to rely on catapults).

You're pretty much screwed if you don't have horses as Gilgamesh during the time between when the archers stop poking around and swordsmen pop up, unless you have shock swords.

No, I meant worse against archers than swordsmen, but better against axes. I consider them an early unit, on par with swordsman, coming up to 3000 years earlier, making them more rushable than axes.

edit: who attacks with axes, when cats are available???? swords are the superior CR unit in any case.
 
What other counter besides the one that I mentioned would work?

Archers and Vultures can easily keep you from being "pretty much screwed" against the occasional, no-promotion barb Axeman that you'll get with settings like Standard/Normal Continents or Fractal. And there will be less fog anyway since you're Creative. For most map scripts, not Marathon, and not Raging Barbs, I think "pretty much screwed" is grossly overstated. "At a slight, mildly inconvenient disadvantage" would be accurate.
 
No, I meant worse against archers than swordsmen, but better against axes. I consider them an early unit, on par with swordsman, coming up to 3000 years earlier, making them more rushable than axes.

edit: who attacks with axes, when cats are available???? swords are the superior CR unit in any case.

Oh wow they keep 25% vs. melee. I've never noticed that hoenstly, I always thought that they lost the bonus entirely like praets do, city wise. Well that changes things considerably...and makes Gilgamesh even better forever, yay.
 
Archers and Vultures can easily keep you from being "pretty much screwed" against the occasional, no-promotion barb Axeman that you'll get with settings like Standard/Normal Continents or Fractal. And there will be less fog anyway since you're Creative. For most map scripts, not Marathon, and not Raging Barbs, I think "pretty much screwed" is grossly overstated. "At a slight, mildly inconvenient disadvantage" would be accurate.

...

Just use warriors if you're not huge/marathon or raging barbs :rolleyes:.

If you are blessed with a ton of land, archers will definitely suffice to lock out any barbs, especially defensive overkill protective archers on pretty much any hill or forest available.
 
There's an acute problem with Vultures though, because even if they are strong rushing units, they will just go to waste if you don't get copper anywhere near and copper is a rarer resource than iron. I tried Gilgamesh on a pangea game about 5 times, not once did I have copper anywhere near the BCF or even somewhere near so I could claim it with my second city

Earlier courthouses is a nice idea though,
 
and copper is a rarer resource than iron.

Is there any truth to that? It usually seems like bad luck to not get copper to me...and I don't think it's a lustering resource like jumbos and such, but in my country game there are 3 sources along the coast within 12 tiles, and an iron just out of the range of the one I settled...
 
One slightly strange way you could think about the difference between vultures and axemen, is that a vulture is like an axeman that has been given an inherent combat 1 and 2 but had a Shock promotion subtracted from it.

On defense against melee units, a vulture is equal to an axeman when the total defense modifier is 50%, ignoring the inherent melee bonii. Note this defense modifier includes all attack modifiers except for combat promos. Above 50% the vulture does better, below 50% the axeman does better. So out in the field, vulture will often be weaker defending against axemen than regular axemen because it would be difficult for a vulture to gain 50% of defense other than its melee bonus. But a forest would be enough to ensure it's at least as strong as an axeman defending. Defending a forest, both an axeman and vulture would be 7.5 against a melee unit. Against anything other than melee, the vulture fares better for obvious reasons.

On the attack it's a bit more complicated, but not by much. Obviously the vulture will be better when attacking anything other than melee units, and this is something to strongly consider.
When attacking a melee unit however, an axeman would be better when the sum of defense modifiers is less than 25%, and the vulture better if the defense modifiers are greater than 25%. So already we can say that if you are attacking a hill city, a vulture is no worse attacking that city than an axeman.

So actually it's pretty rare for vultures to perform worse than axes. I think people are misunderstanding things a bit if they think Gilgamesh would get ripped to pieces by enemy axes. The vulture is no dog soldier. If you are being attacked by axes, putting your vultures on good defensive terrain (like a forest) instantly removes its disadvantage of having the weaker melee boost.
 
Also note that thanks to fortify and inherent city defenses such as culture D, walls, and so on, the times where an axe attacking a city would be superior to a vulture are quite rare. The vulture will be better for virtually every city attack in practice.
 
Also note that thanks to fortify and inherent city defenses such as culture D, walls, and so on, the times where an axe attacking a city would be superior to a vulture are quite rare. The vulture will be better for virtually every city attack in practice.

Agreed. I sort of forgot about the fortify bonus. The fortify bonus also means it should be pretty easy to get up to that magic 50% when defending with vultures as well - it'll just take a little more thinking ahead.
 
Agreed. I sort of forgot about the fortify bonus. The fortify bonus also means it should be pretty easy to get up to that magic 50% when defending with vultures as well - it'll just take a little more thinking ahead.

Pretty easy? Have we forgotten that Gilgamesh is protective with 1 pop whip walls? Extremely easy is more like it. :crazyeye:

I'm sure that went without saying, but I couldn't resist myself in posting that. I think I'm trying to justify that protective is actually a very strong trait with Gilgamesh, which I think it is, but some people have said otherwise (not here apparently).
 
To be fair, no one's gonna attack a vulture behind a wall. You'd bombard the walls away first.

Keep in mind I'm allowing for the fact that the attacker's modifiers are included in the count. If a vulture is defending from a CR2 or CR3 melee unit, even walls won't be enough.
 
To be fair, no one's gonna attack a vulture behind a wall.

No human anyway. A lot of AIs will happily attack a hill wall vulture, even if it's mixed with a couple CG II archers. Once it gets catapults it will finally bombard at least, but before that you can just shred it.
 
No human anyway. A lot of AIs will happily attack a hill wall vulture, even if it's mixed with a couple CG II archers. Once it gets catapults it will finally bombard at least, but before that you can just shred it.

Ok I will trust your experience. I had a feeling enemies are a bit less likely to attack your cities without siege units if you got walls up, especially if the odds would be abysmal.
 
Ok I will trust your experience. I had a feeling enemies are a bit less likely to attack your cities without siege units if you got walls up, especially if the odds would be abysmal.

It depends on the AI. There an XML value for attack courage. Ragnar has the most, I forget who has the least (Gandhi wouldn't shock me but there might be someone else...XML has some funny people leading certain stats). I remember DanF5771 saying that the barbs are pretty cowardly, but there's a second stat that determines a variance on attack courage, and for barbs the variance is huge (IE they might attack a fortified mech infantry on a hill with an archer, or they might ignore an ordinary forest hill archer on a turn by turn basis).

But there's also experience. The guys who actually declare pre-siege consistently, such as monty/shaka/etc, won't just sit there for 30 turns waiting for siege. They get a mass of units, and they hit a city that borders them. There's some mechanic that picks less-defended cities as the target if multiple cities border it seems, but nevertheless they WILL suicide big stacks into wall cities. On hills.
 
No you're not.




@OP: a lot of the vocal high-level players here do like Gilgamesh, and Creative.

I think he's just fine. He's the only AI I remember seeing win domination, granted that I skip a lot of end games. Personally, I like how he calls everyone "puny mortal".

gilgamesh is pretty good leader for chariot rushing though. just tech first to animal husbandry, hook up some horse and you're all set!

recovery from the said rush will also be easier due to ziggurats
 
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