davidlallen
Deity
kthx, I will rename hwi to malky and add the wikipedia text.
Civilizations, Leaders and Traits
- Thread starter Deliverator
- Start date
Ahriman
Tyrant
How about Deathstills as a Fremen Water Cache UB that preserves even more water (or gives +1 water income).
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
Deathstills as UB is a good idea, I suggested the same in the terraforming thread.
That we have two factions, Fremen and Sietch Tabr Fremen, is something I have struggled with. In 1.3.8 I am planning to make all their unique units shared between the two. Theme-wise they've both *got* to have Worm Riders and Fedaykin, etc. Two factions does gives us the opportunity to have more leaders, but the distinction between the two is hard to justify from theme.
The best I can think is that we give them same UUs and UBs but different leaders and perhaps different unique abilities representing their different priorities. Even that is stretching the source material. I'd like to know the rationale for two factions, maybe it's in the dev threads somewhere. Civil war amoung the Fremen would not be an impossibility given their tribal nature I suppose.
With Paul, he could equally be a leader of the Atreides, Fremen or Sietch Tabr Fremen, since Sietch Tabr was the base of his operations at the beginning of his leadership of the Fremen.
That we have two factions, Fremen and Sietch Tabr Fremen, is something I have struggled with. In 1.3.8 I am planning to make all their unique units shared between the two. Theme-wise they've both *got* to have Worm Riders and Fedaykin, etc. Two factions does gives us the opportunity to have more leaders, but the distinction between the two is hard to justify from theme.
The best I can think is that we give them same UUs and UBs but different leaders and perhaps different unique abilities representing their different priorities. Even that is stretching the source material. I'd like to know the rationale for two factions, maybe it's in the dev threads somewhere. Civil war amoung the Fremen would not be an impossibility given their tribal nature I suppose.
With Paul, he could equally be a leader of the Atreides, Fremen or Sietch Tabr Fremen, since Sietch Tabr was the base of his operations at the beginning of his leadership of the Fremen.
Greeneyedzombie
King
There was a fremen tribe called the waterstealers, wich make an appearance in dune messiah.
They could be a substitute for Sietch Tabr fremen.
For them other fremen and ofworlders where the same, a source of water and killed them on sight in the past, till all other fremen tribes banded together to kill them. They survived and went into hiding.
They could be a substitute for Sietch Tabr fremen.
For them other fremen and ofworlders where the same, a source of water and killed them on sight in the past, till all other fremen tribes banded together to kill them. They survived and went into hiding.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I would say that one group of Fremen should be designed to be militant Jihadists (as controlled by Alia), while the other would be aimed at being more pro-terraforming.
These are quite different agendas. I can easily imagine different Fremen going one way or the other; which is more important, waging a jihad to spread your religion across the planet (and the galaxy), or making the planet actually nice to live on?
These are quite different agendas. I can easily imagine different Fremen going one way or the other; which is more important, waging a jihad to spread your religion across the planet (and the galaxy), or making the planet actually nice to live on?
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
I am including House Ecaz as a new civilization in patch 1.3.8. They will have a trade advantage and effectively be the drug suppliers of the Duniverse. I know this is adding another civ to the mix when we still have a lot of work to do to make the existing ones interesting, but I think these guys are different enough in character to be interesting.
These are Ecaz related items from the Dune Appendix:
I don't know anything about the prequels. They seem to get mixed reviews. In terms of leadership there seems to be some contradictions. From Wikipedia:
I'll probably go for Archduke Armand Ecaz with Philosophical and Financial as traits. Any ideas for where I might get a good leaderhead image. The leaderheads we have so far are DVD screen captures so we probably need to find someone from something reasonably obscure who looks like he could be the Archduke of a planet which provides the majority of the universes most popular narcotics.
These are Ecaz related items from the Dune Appendix:
I don't know anything about the prequels. They seem to get mixed reviews. In terms of leadership there seems to be some contradictions. From Wikipedia:
I'll probably go for Archduke Armand Ecaz with Philosophical and Financial as traits. Any ideas for where I might get a good leaderhead image. The leaderheads we have so far are DVD screen captures so we probably need to find someone from something reasonably obscure who looks like he could be the Archduke of a planet which provides the majority of the universes most popular narcotics.
davidlallen
Deity
What do you think about getting rid of one of the two identical Fremen civs?
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
I don't mind that idea actually, it is confusing for there to be two. Could be another 'Less is more' situation.
Is it OK to have a faction with 5 leaders?
Is it OK to have a faction with 5 leaders?
nah...i dont like getting rid of the second fremen,
i acctually liked that pheonician at the time suggested to spit the fremens,
so we can have more leaders,
and besides,
i dont want the mod to be too thin,
im quite happy with the current factions we have,
we can do a lot with them and make everyone distinctive.
but, if you guys insist on removing one fremen civ, then i would like to replace it with another faction.
i acctually liked that pheonician at the time suggested to spit the fremens,
so we can have more leaders,
and besides,
i dont want the mod to be too thin,
im quite happy with the current factions we have,
we can do a lot with them and make everyone distinctive.
but, if you guys insist on removing one fremen civ, then i would like to replace it with another faction.
davidlallen
Deity
I think the idea is to either (a) find some strong way to make the two Fremen civs distinct, or (b) replace one of them with Ecaz. The only drawback to eliminating one of the Fremen is that we have a lot of leaders for them, from the books. Ghanima is pretty minor, I added her but we could easily remove. Liet is nice, but may work better as a mythological figure than an actual leader. Would people scream if we moved Paul to Atreides? That faction only has one leader.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
Splitting the Fremen would be OK if they were distinctive enough conceptually, but I don't think they are. It is just really confusing. The Sietch Tabr Fremen are Paul Muad'Dib's Fremen... 
At some point adding the Waterstealers suggested by Greeneyedzombie could be interesting because they are different in terms of character.
A mod that has 20 or 30 civs can be much more thin than a mod with 10 really distinctive factions that offer really different gameplay and replayability. Some mods have 100+ civs, but that doesn't make me want to play them.
I want to add House Ecaz. So removing Sietch Tabr and adding Sietch Tabr Leaders to the Fremen would make it one in, one out. We'd still be at 11 civs which is a good number to make each one distinctive. We could also drop Ghanima since she is just a clone of Leto II...
At some point adding the Waterstealers suggested by Greeneyedzombie could be interesting because they are different in terms of character.
A mod that has 20 or 30 civs can be much more thin than a mod with 10 really distinctive factions that offer really different gameplay and replayability. Some mods have 100+ civs, but that doesn't make me want to play them.
I want to add House Ecaz. So removing Sietch Tabr and adding Sietch Tabr Leaders to the Fremen would make it one in, one out. We'd still be at 11 civs which is a good number to make each one distinctive. We could also drop Ghanima since she is just a clone of Leto II...
Ahriman
Tyrant
I like 2 Fremen civs, representing that not all Fremen are of one mind, and they may still definitely have conflicts between each other.
davidlallen
Deity
Can you suggest anything which should be different between them? Every time I consider a Fremen ability, such as worm riders, I feel I must give it to both civs.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I think its ok for most units to be the same. But I would differentiate them mostly with UBs; the terraformers get things like deathstills and better windtraps that give better water income (and maybe their spaceport tradegood could be a unique resource that makes the reservoir buildings build faster; so double the cost of the reservoirs and then make them build 50% faster with this resoruce?), while the jihadists get things that increase their military potential, particularly of their infantry, like the sietch bonus that gives extra infantry mobility.
I could also see the Jihadists getting some cheap spammable fanatics UUs who have no upkeep cost and whose death did not cause war weariness.
I could also see the Jihadists getting some cheap spammable fanatics UUs who have no upkeep cost and whose death did not cause war weariness.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
OK, on balance of the points raised, I think we should keep the two Fremen civs, but rename them to make the distinction clear. The new names I propose are:
Chouhada Fremen (prev. Fremen) (theme: Jihad, the purging of Arrakis)
Sihaya Fremen (prev. Sietch Tabr) (theme: Liet's Way, the terraforming of Arrakis)
Chouhada Fremen (prev. Fremen) (theme: Jihad, the purging of Arrakis)
Sihaya Fremen (prev. Sietch Tabr) (theme: Liet's Way, the terraforming of Arrakis)
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
I'm thinking the Chouhada Fremen could make use of the Draft mechanic to create units.
Since, both Fremen civs should have water discipline advantages and bigger populations, the jihadists can then spend their population on disposable units.
Since, both Fremen civs should have water discipline advantages and bigger populations, the jihadists can then spend their population on disposable units.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
With regards to possible Ecaz Unique Units how about a unit that fires darts filled with this:
It could render a unit incapable of attacking, similar to the Fear promotion in FFH2.
It could render a unit incapable of attacking, similar to the Fear promotion in FFH2.
Greeneyedzombie
King
Isnt it better to start making a thread for each civilazation and discus in those where we want to go with them? I find it kind of hard to keep track in this thread what we want to do with them.
