Alternative History Experiment

Kentharu said:
For the technology I would suggest perhaps a separate part of the update (non-story wise), simply listing off the technological advances or whatever for each nation.

That can be arranged, I'll be willing to do one for this update once players specify what level of detail they would like.

Kentharu said:
Will there be any stats or nation-culture list of any kind in the near future? I think a simple nation-culture list would be very helpful, for me at least.

There won't be any stats for a few turns at least. Although, I can certainly do a nation-culture list, although at this stage it probably isn't essential.
 
I was thinking something simple like

Ik discovers:
horse domestication
writting
Metalwork (Copper/Bronze/Iron)
Superlazer cannoonz
 
I also think that knowing which level of technology our cultures can have would help.
I assumed the Ilfeinoi started without horseback riding and got them in the first update, that bows were unknown for the most part. For instance if I plan to have Gintainai become more warlike, I know they can use horseback riding and bows, but I have no idea what weapons and level of technology the people Gintainai face would have, which makes explaining tactics a bit hard.
In particular has metal working been discovered by anyone? Copper, bronze? I bet no iron.
 
I would still like to join in!

Culture name: The Hobbitariens

Starting point: A big island in Indonesia

Description:

The Hobbitariens are humans that are rather small. Living isolated on many Indonesian Islands, with no competition has led to this. However, they have recently explored other islands met their borthers enad sisters on these islands and are trying to develop and expand their culture.

1) Economic:

Living on an island has made the Hobbitariens cautious about farming the rescources on their islands. Therefor, they have a big fisshing culture, and their skills are yet to be discovered by other tribes. There is a small exchange of fish, and fruits from the bigger islands. All the tribes are very self-sufficient.

2) Cultural:

Being small has made the Hobbitariens worship small creatures and gods. They are all ruled by the Big Wave-God called Tsu-Ni-Aimo.

Priorities:

We will try to unify the tribes on a bigger island, let them start charing idea's, wishing methods and religious traditions.

Spending:

Our Ep will be spend on bringing the different tribes in contact with eachother, creating a common goal for them that will benefit them all. Unity = power!
 
Liked the update. I am urked by my cultures incompetence, but I'm determined to make it work... somehow.

Eagerly awaiting this overhaul.
 
Very nice update. Am I able to post orders or does my inhospitable start come with some kind of penalty?
 
Culture name: Banistor
Starting point: Just south of [Abkhazia]
Description:
In short, your standard nomads that will eventually raid some civilization and get absorbed into its culture.

Economy:
Pastoralists, depending on hunting and raiding for their survival.
Horses and bows would be nice to have.

Political:
A confederation of about 4 major tribes and several much smaller and weaker ones, at times united under a strong ruler, or when they need to unite in order to plunder some richer-than-usual and more-defended-than-usual city.
The individual tribes are ruled by a tribal leader, who must usually undergo some trial (such as killing a lion, or killing the previous leader in his prime) to prove themselves worthy of the privilege. The rulers must think of their people, since once put in power, they can easily be deposed by a ceremony in which they are challenged by every male of the tribe without being given time to rest in between challenges, which ultimately results in their death.
Families are patriarchal, although old women in a household are treated with very much respect and their advice is usually heeded by the males.

Culture:
Culturally weak, the Banistor have adopted practices and gods from various peoples they have come into contact with. The one practice that has originated with the Banistor and remained completely unchanged is the custom of removing the leader as detailed above.
The Banistor have several gods; some interact with each other, and other gods are seen as more powerful, secretive, and isolationist. The goddess of winter (borrowed from steppe-people), the god of fish, water, and storms (borrowed from Black/Caspian Sea people), and the goddess of life, flora, and fauna are of the second kind. All other gods (war, fire, famine, sun, etcetera) are of the first kind, and frequently co-operate with each other to either help or harm the Banistor (e.g. the god of famine could decide to try to kill the Banistor, but the god of war could help the Banistor survive by leading them to a rich city).
The Banistor treat the more venerable gods with great respect, not even daring to ask them favors or to publicly question their actions. However, they regularly ask favors of the lesser gods and even try to pit them against each other at times.
There is no tribal spiritual leader, rather the whole tribe is responsible for the spiritual well-being of the tribe and for pleasing the gods.

They have rituals of symbolic rebirth, much like every other culture. After coming of age, men move out of their parents' houses. To obtain a wife, they must have the approval of her father, and at least symbolically also her approval (women can be forced by their fathers to give their approval). The woman then moves out of her family's house and into her new husband's. When the husband dies, and typically this happens before the wife dies, the wife moves into the house of her eldest daughter/granddaughter, or if she had no daughters she is seen as unlucky by the tribe and banished. If her daughter's husband dies as well, the old woman then moves into her eldest granddaughter's house. If a woman lives to this point, having changed houses three times, she is treated with great respect and her advice is highly valued.

Priorities: Will come in a separate post later.



Also, Masada, may I suggest NPCs? (and a list of culture groups on the front page would also help)
 
Hey Masada, good update, just wondering, do we get the same number of spending points from last turn, or does it fluctuate from turn to turn depending on what has happened within our nation? If its the second then I think we'd like to know how much we can spend :P. (Though I'm pretty certain I'd only have 1 spending point, if that.)
 
Technology:

Culture: technology across the culture
Sub-cultures (specific technology)

Ahklain: nomadic.
Ahklain

Anicistor: nomadic, horses (riding), bows, cattle, sheep, goats.
Anicistor (the easternmost do not have sheep or goats yet)

Baildughciarad: nomadic, horses (riding), bows, goats, sheep.
Baildughciarad, Il Baildughciarad, Agba

Dalycana: sedentary, writing, metal working (bronze), horses (non-riding), cattle, sheep, goats, chickens, barley, wheat (einkorn), bitter vetch, chick-peas.
Dalycana

Fravaria: semi-nomadic/sedentary, barley.
Fravaria

Ik: sedentary, metal working (copper), religious-writing, horses (riding), cattle, sheep, barley, wheat (emmer and eikhorn).
Ik

Ilfeinoi: nomadic, horse (riding), bows, sheep, goats.
Ilfeinoi, Southern Gintanai (semi-sedentary, partially assimilated by Ranna, barley, cattle, bitter vetch), Northern Gintainai, Banistor

Kautian: nomadic, horses (riding), cattle.
Kautian, Mugha

Khamba: semi-sedentary with nomadic traders, chickens, barley, wheat (emmer), cattle.
Khamba

Kraenn: nomadic.
Kraenn

Materan: nomadic.
Materan, Materonzi, Materenoaa

Ranna: sedentary, writing, metal working (copper), horse (non-riding), cattle, barley, wheat (emmer and eikhorn), peas, chick-peas.
Ranna, Gettea (bitter-vetch, bows)

Serkot: nomadic, chickens.
Serkot

Waarsazian: nomadic.
Waarsazian

Waldigo: sedentary-raiders, religious-philosophical-writing, metal working (copper), blue-water maritime craft, sheep, goats, barley, peas.
Waldigo

Cobalt Command said:
Liked the update. I am urked by my cultures incompetence, but I'm determined to make it work... somehow.

You have a whole host of factors working against you, including the lack of viable crops, the dryness of the region, low population density, isolation from other sources of agriculture, etc. Your culture isn't incompetent, the simple fact it can survive in Australia is a testament to its competence, its simply not an area that is easy to farm. You will notice that you've made progress, however incremental, which is significantly above the OTL level before European contact.

mythmonster2 said:
Very nice update. Am I able to post orders or does my inhospitable start come with some kind of penalty?

Cobalt commander has been sending in orders and has managed to achieve things -- all is not lost!

qoou said:
Also, Masada, may I suggest NPCs? (and a list of culture groups on the front page would also help)

I'll be doing that soon.

bestshot9 said:
Hey Masada, good update, just wondering, do we get the same number of spending points from last turn, or does it fluctuate from turn to turn depending on what has happened within our nation? If its the second then I think we'd like to know how much we can spend :P. (Though I'm pretty certain I'd only have 1 spending point, if that.)

I haven't awarded points this turn, yet. The points are awarded on the basis of what has happened within your nation, your input and the quality of your orders/stories.
 
I'm curious that you listed Banistor under Ilfeinoi culture. Their leadership/marrying customs are quite different, although they are probably quite similar in most other ways.

Should we wait for your points awards before posting new priorities?

Do I keep both northern and southern Gintainai or only one of them? Ilfeinoi will probably just live their lives by themselves until someone else more aggressive eats them.

I think I'll take the southern Gintainai if I have to pick one.
 
LDiCesare said:
I'm curious that you listed Banistor under Ilfeinoi culture. Their leadership/marrying customs are quite different, although they are probably quite similar in most other ways.

Expediency and the aforementioned similarities.

LDiCesare said:
Should we wait for your points awards before posting new priorities?

That would be advisable, I'm refurbishing the rules as we speak.

LDiCesare said:
Do I keep both northern and southern Gintainai or only one of them? Ilfeinoi will probably just live their lives by themselves until someone else more aggressive eats them.

I'll be covering that in the rules soon.
 
ALTERNATIVE HISTORY EXPERIMENT

OBJECTIVE:

To construct an alternate history from the dawn of civilization, in as short a period of time as possible, with the intention of running a NES from it, when some particular period catches my fancy -- so expect, with that in mind, the occasional slowdown.

METHOD:

I intend to mirror Daftpanzer’s Alternate Timeline Building Experiment, not exactly of course, but in much the same style and substance. The turns will be shorter measured not in millennia, but in centuries. I also intend to exercise some of my economic judgement, and will I hope, achieve something useful from it, although that might be hoping for to much.

ON POINTS:

Players will be given control over a culture, and will have the ability to shape it via a simple points system which can be spent each turn on anything the player feels like, be it religious, cultural, military or otherwise. The player may opt to spend it on general objectives, the propagation of some religion, the discovery of some technology or another etc, and all things going well it will be successful, eventually.

There is however a second option, if the player is particularly bold, they may instead opt to spend the points on the creation of a character with a slightly more specific aim. The effects of this compared to the more generalized spending will be far more significant, a culture particularly gifted in military combat, might gain a Count Belisarius, while a particularly religious or cultured nation might get a Luther or Calvin. There will of course be unintended consequences aplenty as the Luther or Calvin analogue may rip your culture apart in a series of religious wars.

However, I believe that in making the effects significantly more powerful, and allowing for the nature of the NES which favours long term strategic action and dissemination of ‘winning’ traits among cultural units, the returns will be significant. In other words, a little pain now, might translate into a major bonus in later years, as your religion to continue the analogy, ends up rapidly spreading across a large geographic era, which if combined with a tradition similar to the Hajj, might reap substantial dividends for a number of turns. The trade-off becomes a turn or two (depending of course on the situation) of instability for a large potential gain in the future – and be rest assured that the rewards, if properly carried out, will be substantial in most cases.

Nations will be awarded these at the start of each turn; the number will depend on a host of factors including the quality and brevity of orders, the level of input, and the in-game success of nations -- the latter will of course have significant weight but will not be a decisive factor on its own.

ON THE ROLE OF THE PLAYERS:

I’m quite content at this early stage to allow players to handle multiple sub-cultures in their broader culture; expect this to change when the NES proper starts. There will eventually be a stage in the experiment where I will be forced to strip players of control, this will for a number of factors including, possible collusive acts, the ability to break the game, a decisive break in cultural continuity etc. I reserve broad powers in that respect at least, that which I have giveth, I can taketh away, as it were.

In the general sense I’m indifferent to what players say, if a player action isn’t consistent with the culture presented, I may opt to ignore it. Players are in charge of the culture, they are not in charge of the specific actions of the individuals in it. I will however follow orders which are imaginative etc. I’m not attempting to strip the player of their freedom. I’m merely trying to keep them consistent with their own creation.

STATS:

I don’t intend to have stats at this stage. I will, however, provide a proxy indicator for ‘power’, since people have been asking. For instance, for the period around 1870 I might provide pig iron production which isn’t a perfect measure but will provide the player with an idea of strength. For our present, early stage, of development, I might provide horse numbers, or population of the capital, which should provide players with a fair estimation. The main reason for this ambiguity is my desire to simulate the vagaries of history –- states often messed up, something which is difficult to do in NESing with our precise stats. For instance, we would never have an Alexander; nobody would be barmy enough to try the odds in a NES.

CRITICISM AND INPUT:

I encourage everyone to provide input, and hopefully corrections, so that I can have the best possible game -- criticism is often the basis for improvement. So I implore players to provide input, in whatever form they care to provide, in whatever area they care to interfere with. As you’re probably well aware, I’m relatively well versed in economics, I’m less well versed in military history, and my knowledge of history outside of a handful of areas is frankly deplorable, so feel free to correct me, I welcome it.

CONCLUSION:

If, I’ve missed anything, I apologise. I just ask players to keep in mind a simple truism: “it’s only a game” at least for now. It will transition into a proper contest, later. Feedback as ever is obligatory not optional, I'm more than happy to rewrite for clarity or add to sections for comprehensiveness. I'm also thinking of adopting a two tier approach to updating -- a history book style for the usual update, and a narrative style for the interesting sections.
 
There is however a second option, if the player is particularly bold, they may instead opt to spend the points on the creation of a character with a slightly more specific aim. The effects of this compared to the more generalized spending will be far more significant, a culture particularly gifted in military combat, might gain a Count Belisarius, while a particularly religious or cultured nation might get a Luther or Calvin. There will of course be unintended consequences aplenty as the Luther or Calvin analogue may rip your culture apart in a series of religious wars.
What is the difference between spending one point on Military and one point of Military character (aka Belisarius)? I am not talking about the consequences, but the orders one writes.
Would one write "Military - let's learn new tactics on how to kill people with bamboo sticks" in one case and "Military - have a great leader conquer the world" in the other case, or does the character require more fleshing out, and to what point? A story of what he's supposed to accomplish, or how he starts out and reaches a position of influence, along with rationales and motives so you can lead him anywhere?
Otherwise said, do we just create a character and you decide what happens or do we try to accomplish something more specific which may be more likely to fail?
Namely I have trouble imagining what order one would write to create a Calvin or Luther.
 
I'm curious that you listed Banistor under Ilfeinoi culture. Their leadership/marrying customs are quite different, although they are probably quite similar in most other ways.

Hm yes; I intended them to be another group that just recently migrated from west of the Caspian (perhaps originating from the same peoples as the Anicistor). But oh well.
 
@LDiCesare- They'd probably write about a great religious reformer who changed the path of their faith, but instead of causing reform, said person's efforts ultimately produced a huge split in the church.
 
Kentharu said:
Will you be alotting points any time soon?

Later today.

LDiCesare said:
Would one write "Military - let's learn new tactics on how to kill people with bamboo sticks" in one case and "Military - have a great leader conquer the world" in the other case, or does the character require more fleshing out, and to what point? A story of what he's supposed to accomplish, or how he starts out and reaches a position of influence, along with rationales and motives so you can lead him anywhere?

A story would be good, one could even write a 'history' of what this character did, I could not guarantee that it will happen but it'll at least give me an idea of what you intend to do. Any of the above should be acceptable.

qoou said:
Hm yes; I intended them to be another group that just recently migrated from west of the Caspian (perhaps originating from the same peoples as the Anicistor). But oh well.

You may well have had the same origin, but you've been progressively adopting others culture, it only makes sense that at this present moment you are most influenced by the Ilfeinoi. That can always change.

mythmonster2 said:
When will orders be due?

Tomorrow.

Lord_Iggy said:
@LDiCesare- They'd probably write about a great religious reformer who changed the path of their faith, but instead of causing reform, said person's efforts ultimately produced a huge split in the church.

Not quite. The player might opt to have a great religious reformer pop up. I might opt to recognize the fact that the Church is so corrupt that any attempt to reform it is only going to end in schism. Or something along those lines, the law of unintended consequences and all that.
 
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