Minor Leaders

xienwolf · Jul 27, 2009

I'd actually prefer it that you made all of the traits for Standard Leaders have no penalties (remove the 10% science from Barbarian and you are done really), and made it so that a Standard leader was 2 Traits which fit the Civ well, while a Minor was 3 traits which don't really fit the civ so fantastically (which can be a good thing sometimes) and 1 "penalty" trait which is primarily negative.

Valkrionn · Jul 27, 2009

Hmm... That could work too. I'd be able to leave the normal leaders mostly as they are.

KillerClowns · Jul 27, 2009

For Lucius Cuprum, mentioned in this thread's first post, I've found some art that I think captures the sort of spirit I was aiming for. I leave the choice to you. None of them wield a whip, but that's kind of a strange weapon, even by the standards of the eccentrically-armed heroes of roguelikes.
This one looks a bit too fresh and young, but he's perfectly dressed for dungeon diving.
If you use it, try and crop it so the sword isn't visible. The staff works, though, and the hat is awesome. Older than I'd like, though.
This is the closest to how I imagine Lucius looking, but it lacks the doodads and baubles I'd associate with him.

Oh, and some diplotext:
Defeat popup: (Anyone who's played NetHack for a long time has had something like this happen to them.)

Spoiler :

Introduction text: (First rule of roguelikes: almost everything is trying to kill you, except the shopkeepers.)

Spoiler :

Accepted peace text:

Spoiler :

Refuse to talk text: (The Wand of Death does exactly what you think it does.)

Spoiler :

Hostile greeting:

Spoiler :

Friendly greeting:

Spoiler :

Valkrionn · Jul 27, 2009

The defeated text is awesome. :lol:

Personally, I like the third one best... The first's artstyle doesn't quite fit FfH, and the second one seems too old.

He'll definitely go in... What traits should he have though? The adventurer trait idea is now the Austrin civtrait.

KillerClowns · Jul 27, 2009

Valkrionn said:
The defeated text is awesome.

Personally, I like the third one best... The first's artstyle doesn't quite fit FfH, and the second one seems too old.

He'll definitely go in... What traits should he have though? The adventurer trait idea is now the Austrin civtrait.

Well, there was the "lucky" civtrait, suggested, that would grant Harmatt the immortality tag (I.E. like that given to Immortals, Brigit, et cetera). Might be a bit OP in the early game, though. Or Harmatt (and maybe all religious heroes built by him) would gain single-shot immortality. Or there could be a trait, "Inspiring" to allow him to get adventurers, since he is one himself. That might take away from the Grigori, though, if not used properly.

Valkrionn · Jul 27, 2009

Maybe something allowing the rare unit to be created with Adventurer? Powerful enough that he'd be an Emergent leader to balance it...

Actually, I like that. Say... a 1 in 100 chance?

Iceciro · Jul 27, 2009

This is because the Grigori suffer from an old-school Bannor level of "Need Moar Stuff" - outside of getting Adventurers and not having a religion they don't get much else.

And that's lame...

Opera · Jul 27, 2009

Iceciro said:
This is because the Grigori suffer from an old-school Bannor level of "Need Moar Stuff" - outside of getting Adventurers and not having a religion they don't get much else.

And that's lame...

Yes but soon they will have a revamped world spell. And a new mechanic at unit creation! Yeah :cool:

(at least in my-mod-without-a-proper-name :mischief:

)

Valkrionn · Jul 27, 2009

The worldspell, at least, will be stolen. :lol:

Vermicious Knid · Jul 27, 2009

Valkrionn said:
Honestly, I like that better too. The issue is more which traits aren't overpowering than hassle. Got any suggestions?

Suggestions for which? 3 trait combos that aren't overpowered? 2 trait minor combos that won't be overpowered with a third trait added? Or more super-traits?

I think Xienwolf might be onto something with his suggestion. We'd need some more penalty traits though.

As an aside, the "gain a trait" percentages eventually need to be looked at if that feature is retained. I think I've gained Spiritual in almost every game I've played with a minor leader...and certain traits (Financial, for example) are ridiculously hard to acquire.

For me, a perfect solution would involve condensing/tuning the traits slightly so they are relatively balanced. Assign 2 traits to each major...logical sets that complement a solid playstyle for the civ. Have the minors be 3 mismatched traits with a flaw, like Xienwolf suggested. As for the emergents...I'm not confident that we have strong enough super-traits. Dominant should provide the command promo to more unit combats, for example.

Valkrionn · Jul 27, 2009

The trait-gain I'm going to be looking at, rather closely. Already have to rewrite portions of it to get it to work properly with 3.19, so I can tweak it while I'm there... And write down EXACTLY how it works, to put into a Concept section. :lol:

I like Xienwolf's suggestion... I think most Major leaders should be fine as they are. Minor leaders should be given traits that are wildly different... How about an arcane-focused Elohim, for example? :lol:

The Emergents are essentially meant to be challenge-mode. They're strong in one area, but most others are weak... What I'm planning on doing, is having Minor/Emergent leaders set, by default, to not show for the AI or Random leaders. Then, two game options that allow them. Won't affect anything if you select them manually, but being able to control their appearance should help the AI.

Hawkwood · Jul 27, 2009

Be aware that you can make at least one more trait now that Great Commanders are generated by experience (Imperialistic, though it will most likely require to give something more).

Vermicious Knid · Jul 27, 2009

Valkrionn said:
The trait-gain I'm going to be looking at, rather closely. Already have to rewrite portions of it to get it to work properly with 3.19, so I can tweak it while I'm there... And write down EXACTLY how it works, to put into a Concept section.

I like Xienwolf's suggestion... I think most Major leaders should be fine as they are. Minor leaders should be given traits that are wildly different... How about an arcane-focused Elohim, for example?

The Emergents are essentially meant to be challenge-mode. They're strong in one area, but most others are weak... What I'm planning on doing, is having Minor/Emergent leaders set, by default, to not show for the AI or Random leaders. Then, two game options that allow them. Won't affect anything if you select them manually, but being able to control their appearance should help the AI.

OK. I'll trim Father and Mother back to two traits (easy enough to do). Conqueror/Slaver and Spiritual/Financial. Uxol can be the minor leader. Arcane, Treacherous, Raiders...he already has a silly mismash of traits. What should his flaw be?

As for Hephaustus...he is probably best as a major.

KillerClowns · Jul 27, 2009

Hawkwood said:
Be aware that you can make at least one more trait now that Great Commanders are generated by experience (Imperialistic, though it will most likely require to give something more).

Such as free promotions for said Great Commanders?

far_wanderer · Jul 27, 2009

Vermicious Knid said:
OK. I'll trim Father and Mother back to two traits (easy enough to do). Conqueror/Slaver and Spiritual/Financial. Uxol can be the minor leader. Arcane, Treacherous, Raiders...he already has a silly mismash of traits. What should his flaw be?

Maybe something weakening the Melee line? That would further encourage a troll-centric army.

Vermicious Knid · Jul 27, 2009

far_wanderer said:
Maybe something weakening the Melee line? That would further encourage a troll-centric army.

That is a definite possibility. Probably an attack penalty...I'd want to leave them strong on defense. Or a chance to be held each turn...could represent the "normal" Jots being reluctant to follow the orders of a troll.

Valkrionn · Jul 27, 2009

Hawkwood said:
Be aware that you can make at least one more trait now that Great Commanders are generated by experience (Imperialistic, though it will most likely require to give something more).

Actually, I was planning on leaving it weak, and using it as a paired trait with others like Ingenuity. Have to make sure the tag works though, which is why I hadn't mentioned it. :lol:

Vermicious Knid said:
OK. I'll trim Father and Mother back to two traits (easy enough to do). Conqueror/Slaver and Spiritual/Financial. Uxol can be the minor leader. Arcane, Treacherous, Raiders...he already has a silly mismash of traits. What should his flaw be?

As for Hephaustus...he is probably best as a major.

I like Hephaestes as Emergent, honestly. All he has is a bit more production, which is admittedly strong, and weapons for most units... Which would be OP for most civs, but not the Jotnar.

KillerClowns said:
Such as free promotions for said Great Commanders?

That could work for Imperialistic too...

far_wanderer said:
Maybe something weakening the Melee line? That would further encourage a troll-centric army.

Vermicious Knid said:
That is a definite possibility. Probably an attack penalty...I'd want to leave them strong on defense. Or a chance to be held each turn...could represent the "normal" Jots being reluctant to follow the orders of a troll.

I like that. :goodjob:

I say go for it.

Tasunke · Jul 28, 2009

for the lucky civ trait, hero units could have a 30% chance of being reborn in capital upon death ... or soemthing.

Vermicious Knid · Jul 28, 2009

Valkrionn said:
I like Hephaestes as Emergent, honestly. All he has is a bit more production, which is admittedly strong, and weapons for most units... Which would be OP for most civs, but not the Jotnar.

So 2 traits + Emergent? Excellent, we are already breaking our new rules! :lol:

Opera · Jul 28, 2009

Valk, what about the "less maintenance building" we talked about in my thread for Imperialistic?
I wanted to make Imperialistic a trait mimicing huge empire with a powerful capital, so I thought it could allow supplies to be build in the capital.

(That's not enough, but that's an idea)

Minor Leaders

Deity

The Hamster King

Emperor

The Hamster King

Emperor

The Hamster King

Special Ability: Decimate

Deity

The Hamster King

King

The Hamster King

Man-at-Arms

King

Emperor

Prince

King

The Hamster King

Crazy Horse

King

Deity

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