SGOTM 10 - Smurkz

I agree, better to delay for testing now, than be sorry over quick decisions later.

BL, did your tests give any clues to the length of the game? For example, how many turns to Rocketry & Fission?

Concerning civics, Serfdom could be good for the initial phase of the game. If we decide to go with a religion after all (and probably we shouldn't), then pacifism can be considered.
Apart from that, I think HR, Bur and Mer are the obvious choices right now.

I think we need Caste System so we can run scientists, artists, and merchants without having to build lots of buildings first--that's where most of our beakers (and culture) will come from for quite awhile.

Would a Quick-speed test game be useful, to get a feel for the grand arc of history (tech pace, etc.)? It would be a lot faster than slogging through Epic speed (which we still need for the early game, when each turn is critical).

Just checking in, I guess it was time to stop those pesky holidays. I mean who needs holidays when a fun SGOTM is starting. Right ? Right ???

I see you already have posted a lot, which means reading and catching up, which means tomorrow, I'll screw up my first day of work. Or my second night at home who knows.

Anyway, glad to be a Smurkz again. Let's nuke some AIs and win this game

Xcalibrator said:

I think we need Caste System so we can run scientists, artists, and merchants without having to build lots of buildings first--that's where most of our beakers (and culture) will come from for quite awhile.

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I agree CS is the best long term choice for SE, and the best choice until Em. for CE. However, we don't really need it in the start phase - forge already gives a free engineer, and libs can be constructed soon if necessary.
I am thinking that we'll probably have another revolution after discovery of Liberalism, to switch to Free Religion: +10% sci should translate in decent savings (5% or so?) on the length of the game. That means there is a free slot for another change, and this can be Serfdom -> CS.
I don't think I have ever used serfdom, but this may be the occasion for it .

Would a Quick-speed test game be useful, to get a feel for the grand arc of history (tech pace, etc.)? It would be a lot faster than slogging through Epic speed (which we still need for the early game, when each turn is critical).

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I think that will work, because the main discrepancy IIRC is movement, which is probably not so relevant. I would like to learn two things:
First, how long the research phase will last. This can give us an idea about the relative value of CE vs SE.
Second, where/when the bottlenecks will be, and of what nature - research, exploration, development, etc.

EDIT: btw, Stalin's traits are absolutely the worst we could get. And the UB doesn't help much either...

Just noticed that the saves are available. Though I am not home tonight, meaning nothing doable before tomorrow.

Still haven't tested anything. I am on holidays next week (again ), but home, which is good. I'll try to get a hand on rolo's test game.

I had some time to do a few tests.

First, what kind of world maps can we expect? I created 6 maps, with the settings specified by AlanH, and random settings for all he didn't specify. Here is what I got:



All maps are 64 by 40 tiles, for 2560 tiles total. The red square indicates our starting position, the purple squares are the AI. In 2 cases did we start on a small island, isolated from the AI (i.e., 0 neighbors), and in 4 cases on a continent. Twice we had one neighbor on this continent, once two and once three. (I am only counting AI on the same land mass - in some cases more AI can be contacted via a simple coastal crossing.) On three of the maps we have room for 3 cities on our own landmass, on the other three we can fit 5-7 cities. The total number of land tiles runs from 650 (25%) to 800 (32%), with an average of 750 (30%).
The AI like to research Education, Gunpowder and Nationalism, with Education a slight favorite. They like to build military (longbows), and occasionally workboats or barracks. Surprisingly, culture is also very popular (until the first border expansion), and the AI will sometimes even hire 1 or 2 artists. Within a few turns, all the AI switch to HR, Bureau, CS, Merc, and occasionally OrgRel. The AI keep 2 longbows per city, both in the capital and the second city. So only the explorer explores.

I also played a bit with modern age units and nukes.
Gunships are quite mobile and hence effective in fast war against inferior opponents, when combined with paratroopers. Gunships cannot move over water, not even lakes. They can board ships. A disadvantage is that they will come late in the game (need rocketry advanced flight, flight, and oil resource). Because of the advanced flight requirement (2 additional techs) I don't think they will actually provide any speed up over tanks/cavs.
Tac nukes cannot be fired on the turn they board ship. Tac nukes can be intercepted according to the 'pedia, but I don't know by what (only SDI?). It takes two nukes (tac or ICBM) to clear a tile of units. A nuke will also kill workers, workboats, GP, etc, but it may take two shots just as for other units. So the first nuke does not always show an effect on them, because they have no health bar. These units can also be killed by gunships of course.
Paratroopers cannot drop into a city, but can drop next to it, and walk in on the same turn if the city is empty. Even a workboat or worker in the city prevents a paratrooper from walking in.
The range of paratroopers and tac nukes is computed using the distance formula, not the movement formula. So: 1 point for hor/vert step, 1.5 points for diagonal step, and round down the sum.
Launching paratroopers from forts, sail ships through them, or rebase tac nukes to them, only works if the fort is in your own lands; neutral or OB is not good enough. You can oddly enough, rebase tac nukes (and paratroopers) to AI cities with OB, and even launch from them. But you cannot launch nukes inside their borders or just 1 tile outside, of course.

Gunships need advanced flight

Oh and don't forget a very important thing: never, EVER, move units ASAP to below of the nuke mushroom. There is a bug that makes that sometimes units moved to the nuked area while the animation is going are treated as they were there before the nuke

Like zyxy ( bah, this reminds me my long forgotten math classes ) hinted we will want to use nukes + gunships + paratroopers + airdrop for defending units as the core of our offensive against the AI in the end of days. This may be painfully quick indeed after we get manhattan going.

Just popping in to say I'm still playing BOTM 20 (despite PM-ing Niklas the other day that I was going to quit). I can't promise anything much until August 17, therefore, though I will try.

Regarding zyxy's maps, I'm trying to think how Gyathaar might set this up. Given the variant restrictions, I would not expect to start isolated on a small island (but we might conceivably start isolated on a large one) or trapped in a corner with very little room to expand without city capture (like we were in SGOTM 8). More likely, I think, would be to start with enough room to theoretically get a decent six-seven cities of our own, but such that it would take good play to manage more than 4-5 before the AIs/barbs get there instead.

As such, I see scouting as extremely important in the early game, probably with priority over defense or immediate expansion. Remember that all we have to do is *not* convert to whatever religion we get to remain a less likely target for some time. Assuming we don't start super close to someone, or as the only possible target for our neighbor. (We should try a few quick starts where we play attack-bait to the extreme, though (no military, close settling, own religion), just to get an idea of what our "safe zone" really is.)

Another item of importance is going to be to establish barb city suppression as best we can over whatever area we intend to claim. If they found somewhere we want, they get to keep it.

Nice work, zyxy! That's all very useful info. Sorry I don't have anything to add; I'm cleaning up from the devastation of having 10 huge white pines cut down and also need to finish my BOTM20 game. I'm also hoping my wife can partition our new Mac disk, install Windows, and get Civ running; she's much better at such things than I .

More testing of any kind would be great, but what are our highest priorities? We need to decide on Caste System vs Serfdom for the start, seafood/workboats versus farms/workers, growth vs specialists, build order, expansion vs defense, etc. And as Renata said, we also need to see when barbs appear, how difficult it is to keep the AI off our backs, etc.

Does it make sense to run quick (or other) speed tests to get a whole-game overview now, or wait until we see where our first two cities will be? Should we jump right in and start discussing the first couple turns and where to settle? We must revolt the first turn (agreed?), though, so we need to make our civics choice before hitting Enter.

Thanks, XC!

Renata raises excellent points about exploration and city founding. To me, these are the most important determining factors. Will we meet an AI soon or be isolated for a while, and how many cities can we settle? How many cities do we need for Oxford and for the FP? That is our minimum!

If we are not isolated: we will need defense and we may need to contend to establish a border. But apart from difficulties this situation also presents the opportunity to harass AI(s) early on. If we can keep them small in the beginning, much less work for us later on. I think we should do some tests of early war to disrupt their build-up. Since the AI starts with only longbows and keeps the initial ones in his cities, we might be able to prevent metal hookups by simply parking 1-2 longbows of our own in their lands. And of course, there are worker & settler steals.
If we are isolated, then defense can be lighter for a while, and it becomes more important to establish a navy, for contacts. Rapid expansion is still important, to prevent barb cities and overseas' AI cities. This scenarios should perhaps be tested, too.
In both cases, if we have little land, then Astronomy is a priority.

Yes, I think a 2 turn anarchy starting on the current turn. If we count the current turn as turn 1, then the anarchy then lasts until after the production phase between turns 2 and 3, right? In that case, we do not need to settle until turn 3, so we can move for two turns.
Regarding initial moves, I would explore with the explorer and both longbows, leaving our towns undefended for a while. (We need to figure out when human barbs appear). On the first turn probably: settler SE-NE, explorer SE-SE, southern longbow SW, northern longbow N. The other settler and worker can be moved once we have an idea where to. Hopefully the first turn on movement gives enough info to decide the location of the first two cities and make a MM plan. Decision on CS vs Serfdom can hopefully be made based on that.

EDIT: added picture below to clarify. I think this unfogs all the indicated tiles (most of them will be water).


Regarding research: if we want to be first to liberalism (for Astro most likely; or perhaps Economics and the free GM?), we can research Edu and Lib and hope to be first. It might work with the 2 gold mines. E.g. a Bureau capital with 2 gold mines and nothing else makes 1.5 * (9 [or is it 10?] + 2*7) = 1.5*23 = 34.5 bpt at 100% sci rate.
Or we can put research to PP, run 2 scientists somewhere (requires CS or a quick library) and bulb Edu, switch research to liberalism.
Or we can use the GS to found an academy and gain another 17+ bpt in the capital.
Or we can concentrate on exploration & expansion for a while, and ignore liberalism.
I think these options need to be tested as well.

Regarding corporations: is Sushi an option? We have 4 bonusses in view already... can test!

Regarding economy: specialist economy / hammre economy or cottage economy? This doesn't have to be decided before we start constructing cottages or farms (or get access to representation), but some tests would be nice. Rough early ideas (that have probably been voiced over the forum in many places, but anyway):

• Epic speed means 45 turns to develop to village and 105 to develop to town - or half of that with emancipation.
• during the first 45 turns the average income per turn from a cottage is (15*1 + 30*2)/45 = 1.67 pt. During the first 105 turns it is 3 pt (assuming PP). After 105 turns, it becomes 5 pt (or 7 with Free Speech, and add 1 pt for US).
• A cottage economy is inflexible in the sense that you don't want to change cottages into farms or workshops. It is vulnerable to pillaging. It requires the otherwise useless tech of Communism. It is flexible in the sense that money is: can be turned into with US at 3:1 rate, or 2:1 with Kremlin. So with US but no FS, a town effectively produces 2.83 pt, and 3.5 with Kremlin. (Of course, reality is more complicated because the and parts are multiplied by different factors due to city improvements.) Compare this with a State Property workshop at +3 pt.
  The comparison with specialists is more complicated, but I think it goes like this: if the city is not limited by happiness, health or growth rate, then one village or town compares to one post-Bio farm supporting one specialist at 6 :beaker: (or ) per turn, so town is similar and village is slightly worse. If the city is limited by happiness, health or growth rate, then two villages/towns compare to one specialist, and both villages and towns are clearly better.
• A specialist economy / hammer economy is inflexible in the sense that it locks two civics (Repr and SP) and in the sense that the only specialists that come unlimited are those that produce or . It is vulnerable in the sense that specialist cities need to be larger than cottage cities for the same yield. It requires the otherwise useless tech of Communism. It is flexible in the sense that surplus food can be used on specialists or workshops, according to need, and that shifting specialists is an alternative to shifting the slider.

I would really like to do some more testing, but unfortunately my computer is still in repair, so I cannot do them yet.

r_rolo1 said:

Gunships need advanced flight

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Good catch! This was changed in BtS, apparently. Well, this makes gunships rather useless for our purposes - it takes two techs beyond the requirements for nukes to get them, which negates their higher battlefield speed.

I've been extremely busy lately, but I have managed to find time to put together a starting test save that mimics our starting location. For those who wish to try different cities sites based on what we know from the start should use this save. I'm fairly certain I have all of the settings correct.

Just by putting the terrain together and fogbusting, from what I can tell we're in the southern hemisphere not too far from the south pole. If I've gazed accurately, there's tundra not to far to our south and ocean to our east, meaning our main city choices are north and west of our starting location. The north at least preliminarily looks blocked off with coast, so if that too is a bust settling west of our starting location may be the only viable land to grab. I wouldn't be surprised if Gythaar stuck someone directly to our west to box us in. We probably shouldn't settle any cities during our anarchy until we know for sure that our north, east, and south aren't going to reveal any solid new land to grab. This way we can maximize what we have available to us.

If we're in agreement, we should probably move our starting units around on turn one just to see what other land is available. The northern most longbow should move NE (the two hills north of the iron block his view north and west if he were to move 1N), the southern longbow 1 SW (to see if the tile south of the grassland hill gold is a hill and reveal the south), and the explorer 1 SE, 1 S if the tile south of the grassland gold is a hill (I'm pretty sure it is). If not, then 2 SE would work as well. If I've gazed correctly, this should maximize what we see on the first turn. If we're feeling a bit daring the worker could even move as well, the best direction being something west to reveal more along the ivory/floodplains tiles.

Thanks, BL! I'm still working on BOTM20 and haven't been able to do anything for this game. I second your motion to do some 1st-turn moves--at least the two longbows, and then think about where to send the explorer if it's not obvious. I agree that we should NOT move the settlers or worker yet. We might want to have the worker chop right where he is.

If someone wants to grab the save and do those two moves I'm all for it.

Just to speed thing along I have moved the two longbows as specified and saved. I've also taken a screenshot for you picture people out there. The explorer has not moved as of yet nor has any civic revolts occurred either.

Spoiler for picture:


As predicted, it's all ocean to our east. I'm thinking the explorer should move to the grassland gold tile not only for the line of sight but also to set up a possible next move to the southernmost desert hill that's exposed.

Great, BL! I'm OK with your plan for the explorer but we should probably wait until others give input. One thing to keep in mind is our line of sight once we found our first city, and how long it will take to pop its borders to the BFC. How long if we ran 1 artist specialist and/or built culture? Probably it doesn't matter since we'll want to send the northern longbow westish to explore, and the explorer (and maybe southern longbow) to the southwesterlyish. Should we worry about not being able to see 2 tiles (east) out into the ocean from the eastern gold if the explorer doesn't got there? Fish can appear in the ocean (not just on the coast like clams and crabs) but I don't think it's common.

My gut feeling is to settle our capital in place because of all the food, which will allow fast settler building and lots of specialists, plus elephants, iron, and a river (and extra hammer from plains? hill), but my gut is often wrong about such things.

After tinkering with my test save, moving the explorer to the easternmost gold tile is probably best since it reveals the entire coast and it will still set us up to move to the desert hill tile I mentioned before.

As for settling in place, I'm thinking we should consider moving one settler SW and another 3 E, 1S. The capital would still be on the river, have both elephants and would keep the rice, crab and clam in the bfc while also opening up options for a corn/gold city as our second site and possibly a fish/iron city as our third. I still have yet to test this out, but when the religions are distributed assuming the elephant city is our capital the holy city would be the gold city, and if we were to somehow shrine it (unlikely, but bare with me here), it would make for quite the Wall Street site.

Attached is the new updated test save I've made.

Had some time to run a few tests (okay, just one test run), but I hope it answers a few questions. My specs for this game:

• Moscow was founded on turn 2 1 SW of starting location. St. Petersburg was founded the same turn 1 E of the corn.
• First builds in Moscow and St. Pete were work boat and worker respectively.
• Worker chopped riverside forest 1 S of original starting location.
• revolt to HR/Bureau/CS/Mercantilism
• Engineer Specialist in Moscow and Merchant in St. Pete. Why Merchant? Once our second city was founded I was running -4 GPT @100%. With the merchant this became -1 GPT and I was able to run 100% science for 38 more turns. Next game I'll try running a scientist out of this city and see what the tech rate is.
• Started teching off Education

And to now start answering questions:

• Culture Pops with Artists/no Artists: Moscow will pop in 8 turns with no artist (need 15 culture for first expansion). New cities with an artist will pop in four turns. It's very possible some cities won't need an immediate border pop (such as St. Pete in this case) so they could run and engineer/scientist/merchant if we wanted.
• Religion: In this test on turn 6 all religions except Judaism were distributed across everyone. I should also note I received 24 gold on this turn as well. Don't know what the deal is with that, but I'm curious if this number is consistent test case to test case. For those curious I randomly got Islam.
• Barb meetings and greetings: Well, I had gotten to turn 20 and figured I had screwed the save up somehow since I hadn't seen any barbs. On turn 36 I finally noticed them, but consider this a very late figure. Barbs had warriors, archers, galleys, and in one case, a Mace. With all this in mind, we'll need a trireme sooner rather than later to protect our various seafood resources.
  
• Wonder builds: The first GE's that the AI spawned were used to rush wonders. Notre Dame fell first, followed by Sistine Chapel, then Taj Mahal. In my game Alexander had managed to tech off Nationalism then rush the Taj Mahal on turn 37. University of Sankore came next.

After playing fairly sloppily, here's a few things I noticed.

• The rice and corn need to be irrigated. The forest South of the one tile river should be chopped first and farmed at nearest convenience to give the farmed rice and corn an extra food each.
• My St. Pete city if working the irrigated farms and two gold mines can run four specialists at pop 8.
• A few of the AI were in/went into WHEOOHN when I met them. We can expect war very early. It doesn't help my test save just so happens to have Izzy, Justinian, Saladin, and Alexander all with different religions, but I think the point remains.
• Given my sloppy play, I was able to have four cities settled by turn 43 while also having a longbow to defend each, three work boats, and four workers total improving the land. I also managed to pop a GE. Not bad, but we can do better.
• While this is my first foray on Emperor difficulty, it seems the AI tech much better than myself. Don't know if this is either the game set up itself or the jump to Monarch to Emperor, but I felt I was behind from the get-go.

Just popped in to say I hope to finish BOTM 20 tomorrow and have time for this on Friday.

Good to see we've started!

Our 2nd city will soon expand because it will be a religious center, so there's no need to run artists.

Did you notice btw that settlers are very expensive? 342 hammers! All other units seem 10% cheaper than usual.

Some ideas on scouting & settling:
scouting SE-SE with the scout is a certainly a good move and will reveal most of the east. But I now wonder if we can do better. We have 2 turns to move the settlers, so they can first scout a bit as well. Our scout moves just as easily over hills and forests (1 movement point each!)

What do we need to explore in the first two turns? Based on what we can see now, I think 2E of the settlers is the best spot for the capital. Two gold hills, iron, and some food and a few grasslands and a plains hill - very good land for a bureaucratic cottaged capital. If there is another (sea)food in the fog, even better. It would be nice to scout the east coast a bit more.
Another nice spot could be somewhere to the SW, but we need to scout it a bit more. Ivory is not that great, but floodplains are ok.
A third nice spot is either the plains hill N of the crabs, with lots of seafood (+12 food!) and some hills it can be a production center or GP farm.

So an alternative is: move one settler SE-SE to the gold hill. On the turn after he can go NE and then for example NW. These moves should reveal the whole east coast.
Move the scout SW-SW. On the next turn he can scout out the western lands, while the longbows continue north and south.

I did finish, yay! Actual game comments in the morning.

Congrats, Renata! I should finish BOTM20 tonight or tomorrow. Gee, it would be embarrassing if you did better on it than I, considering it's your first Emperor game. Now I'm all nervous.