Version 2.8 discussion

vincentz · Aug 10, 2009

Just a thought I got reading the above post.

Dont know if its possible (could be in python i think), but what about making the crusader so that every times he captures a city it spreads christianity regardless of existing religions. It would revive the christianity as a religion, coz as of now it is the smallest religion in civ4/RoM (compared to the biggest IRL)

aender · Aug 10, 2009

as far as "holy wars" go if one religion can all should and if crusaders could spread christianity then all religions should have a unit that does so

AAranda · Aug 10, 2009

aender said:
as far as "holy wars" go if one religion can all should and if crusaders could spread christianity then all religions should have a unit that does so

Completly agree. I like the crusade thing as far as it belong to any religion , not only christianity
I , surely all of of you have noticed , like (and try to make my mods) things as historically accurated as possible , but not in this case. Why? Because crusades were given because islamic conquers were stopped at Poltiers by Martel , probably because islamists didn't want really to go further , so christianism remained in Europe and later was strong enough to start a counter attack. Would that be posible if Islamist won in Poltiers? Don't think so. Europe probably had fall under islam religion and crusades have never exist, maybe a reconquest , but not probably a crusade
My point is that all that crusade thing was historically possible because a chain of things , wich could be hardly repeated if we start human history again , wich is exactly what we do when we play CIV

zappara · Aug 10, 2009

I just read about Better BtS AI 0.8 changes and these seem quite nice changes:

jdog5000 said:
This release feels like a big milestone in this project Between fixes in the UP and this version of BBAI, the AI's tech research rate is much improved, particularly in the late game. There undoubtedly more which can and will be done, but I think most of you will notice the change

Beyond the economy fixes, here are a few other highlights:

- AI now switches to Nationhood when facing a difficult enemy, and uses drafting both for defense and occasionally for an offensive rush
- Capitulation was tweaked from both sides, outright conquest is now a bit more common
- Began adding victory strategies to the AI (have little effect so far)

Next, there are two aspects of research rate I want to talk about more at length. The short version is that research rates have been rebalanced since the AI is now teching faster. The details are in spoiler tags below because they describe the inner workings of somewhat hidden research rate modifiers which exist in Civ4 and have been adjusted in this mod.

Spoiler :

Known prerequisite adjustment

In Civ4 you get a 20% research rate bonus (ie, an extra beaker for every 5 you produce) for every OR prerequisite tech you know. Most of the techs in the tree have 1 OR prerequisite, some have 2, and there are only a few with none (starting techs, Astronomy, Flight).

As an example, the two OR prereqs for Civil Service are Code of Laws and Feudalism. You have to know one of these two to be able to research Civil Service. If you only know Code of Laws, you get 20% bonus for researching Civil Service. If you only know Feudalism, again you get a 20% bonus. If you know both, then you get a 40% bonus.

Now, the bonus for knowing both Feudalism and Code of Laws makes sense ... it should be easier to make the leap to Civil Service with both of those concepts already understood. However, the bonus for knowing only one of the OR prereqs is a little weirder, why should you get a +20% bonus just for having unlocked the tech? This means that after the starting techs, you're getting at least a 20% bonus all the time, except on Astronomy and Flight. It's like some kind of bizarre "SALE: 20% off Tech-Tree Wide!!!" that no one ever told you about.

Anyway, this known OR prereq bonus was how I decided to scale down tech rates. In BBAI 0.80, you get a 10% bonus for knowing one OR prereq and then +20% for each additional prereq you know. In effect, almost all techs are 10% more expensive.

Several XML variables have been exposed to control tech rate:

TECH_COST_FIRST_KNOWN_PREREQ_MODIFIER - Bonus for first known OR prereq, currently 10%.

TECH_COST_KNOWN_PREREQ_MODIFIER - Bonus for subsequent known OR prereqs, remains at 20%.

TECH_COST_MODIFIER - Allows scaling of research rate modifier for all techs, so -5 would slow everything down by 5%. Set to 0.

In the test I've run, this seems to produce about the same tech rate as vanilla BTS (with tech trading on) ... it's still maybe 5% faster than I'd personally want most of the time, but about in line with what most expect I think.

Spoiler :

Tech diffusion

In Civ4, you receive a 30%/n bonus to research rate for every civ you've met which already knows the tech you're researching, where n is the number of civs alive in the game.

In BBAI 0.80, the formula is more complex, but here are the important points:
- Diplomatic status matters, so open borders make tech diffuse much more quickly.
- There is no longer a normalization by number of civs alive in the game, instead the added bonus for each additional civ who already knows the tech gets smaller and smaller.
This second change was made for two reasons: 1) Tech now diffuses the same early on a 2-player island on a big map as it does on a Duel map. 2) If one player pulls ahead of the pack, there's a stronger bonus to pull along the other players.

In addition, a tech welfare program was added to help out civs who fall far behind. Civs who are behind by several techs in the mid game or later now get a percentage boost based on how far behind they are. This was added to help keep smaller civs and others which can't keep up in research at least technologically relevant, so your tanks should see fewer archers and longbowman now

Several variables for controlling these features have been added to GlobalDefinesAlt.xml.

It's good tha those modifiers are now exposed to xml so I can modify them for RoM since this mod has much more techs than vanilla BtS and those modifiers need to be scaled down for RoM as some techs can have up to five OR prereqs which means that the if you know all the OR prereqs of a tech, you'd get 100% research boost for that tech (Monarchy as an example). Also the changes to tech diffusion will help us.

Edit: No progress last week and probably not much this week either. It's still heat wave here so I rather enjoy the nice weather (among other things

) than sit in front of computer playing games.

Baskedyt · Aug 10, 2009

zappara said:
Edit: No progress last week and probably not much this week either. It's still heat wave here so I rather enjoy the nice weather (among other things ) than sit in front of computer playing games.

Well, You've earned it, havn't you. Have nice time. :cool:

aender · Aug 10, 2009

hmmmm i have an idea...as far as religious wars go currently christianity is the only religion with the stuff but my idea what if all the stuff was made to be for the civ with apostolic palace and only buildable while in a "crusade" against a rival religion which was declared by vote
that way extra wonders and units and all dont need to be created and utilized and every religion gets a chance at having their crusade......i really dont know if possible tho but i'm not a modder

NBAfan · Aug 10, 2009

zappara said:
Edit: No progress last week and probably not much this week either. It's still heat wave here so I rather enjoy the nice weather (among other things ) than sit in front of computer playing games.

Some CivFanatic you are. :lol:

Take all the time you need. :beer:

generalstaff · Aug 10, 2009

civ_king said:
what about reclaiming the holy land (if Christian holy city gets captured by heathen) and shouldn't Islam get some form of holy war units?

Modern Islamic holy war units are an idea, I think the MaxRiga mod has Jihadis and Mujaheddin units which could be used.

Personally, I think Islam and Buddhism could use a minor wonder (or something else minor; I would make them if I had the graphics since I have them planned if I find them (Charminar Gate and Kotoku-in)). Also, Zoroastrianism could use a wonder (Persia has plenty of things which could be used) and one of the Confucian religious buildings should add the Gentlemen promotion. Overall, I think the other religions are powerful enough currently.

NBAfan · Aug 10, 2009

Hay Zappara, do you about this that Cybah discovered? It has to with PythonCallbackDefines.

cheesemijit · Aug 10, 2009

he said before that he knows about them and has kept them to a minimum.

aender · Aug 10, 2009

i'm trying to change barter to allow corps and slavery to not allow.....to see if ai will use barter to build corps and stop using slavery which is killin there pop

anyways i found in the civicoptions xml and changed the 1 to 0 and vice versa but this didn't work

what else needs to be changed to do this?
edit: i am doing this mid-game and i think i dont need to do more, not sure, cause slavery no longer allows corps but when i go bk to barter i still cant now
ohh i'm using vincentz guilds modmod and thats what gave me the idea basically so i dont have to use slavery to build the ones i want but also tired of having cities in the 30s and ai still in teens...won a few games religiously due to this and figure it might help

edit2" basically ignore this post.......i'll get bk to yall after i start a new game if this works to get at least some of the ai away from slavery

civ_king · Aug 10, 2009

generalstaff said:
Modern Islamic holy war units are an idea, I think the MaxRiga mod has Jihadis and Mujaheddin units which could be used.

Personally, I think Islam and Buddhism could use a minor wonder (or something else minor; I would make them if I had the graphics since I have them planned if I find them (Charminar Gate and Kotoku-in)). Also, Zoroastrianism could use a wonder (Persia has plenty of things which could be used) and one of the Confucian religious buildings should add the Gentlemen promotion. Overall, I think the other religions are powerful enough currently.

I think Alhambra is a nice wonder

Crusis · Aug 11, 2009

aender said:
as far as "holy wars" go if one religion can all should and if crusaders could spread christianity then all religions should have a unit that does so

I guess it would come later in the timeline, but "suicide bomber" comes to mind as a religious unit. It could have the power to blow up political and financial buildings in cities, as percentage chance of success. Or it could blow up units in the field with invisibility to the unit, self destructing in the process.

civ_king · Aug 12, 2009

civ_king said:
Isn't it redundant for the Olympics to remove all unhappiness AND give +1 happy per 20% culture slider? (or was it circus maximus)

what about this???

zappara · Aug 12, 2009

Rainy day so I got some "RoM work" done

Here's the current notes:

Spoiler :

With the above changes I started 3 games last night and I lost the game in all of them before 1AD - seems to be harder but I can't rule out the possibility that I had really bad luck with my start positions.. :lol:

The techs that still are missing pedia are:

Spoiler :

If you want to, you can help me with those.

There's some techs on that list that currently aren't in RoM, just listed all that I could find from text xml file.

chumpy56 · Aug 12, 2009

zappara said:
The techs that still are missing pedia are:

Spoiler :

Stockmarket
Modern Health Care
Quantum Computers
Road Pavement
Antimatter
Optical Computers
Implants
Digitalized Property
Nanomining
Planetary Economics
Terra Computer
Biological Networks
Magnetism
Theory of Gravity
Grand War
Advanced Computers
Advanced Rocketry
Orbital Flight
Siege Warfare
Fermentation
Mounted Archery
Caste System
Vassalage
Aristocracy
Crop Rotation
Papacy
Armored Cavalry
Algebra
Armor Crafting
Smithing
Telegraph
Microprocessor
Applied Economics
Biofuels
Quantum Teleportation
Micromechanics
Replacement Organs
Brain Scanning
Plastic Electronics
Personal Robots
Warmachines
Advanced Warmachines
Organic Cities

If you want to, you can help me with those. There's some techs on that list that currently aren't in RoM, just listed all that I could find from text xml file.

I would be willing to help with the pedia entries.... is there a certain format you want used? How would I get them to you?

generalstaff · Aug 12, 2009

Crusis said:
I guess it would come later in the timeline, but "suicide bomber" comes to mind as a religious unit. It could have the power to blow up political and financial buildings in cities, as percentage chance of success. Or it could blow up units in the field with invisibility to the unit, self destructing in the process.

The Kamikaze promotion works well to represent suicide bombers (increased attack, lowered defense, and dies at end of combat). Maybe the a Terrorist Network national wonder, which requires Guerrilla Warfare, Mass Media, and the state religion in the city and causes all units produced in the city to start with the Kamikaze promotion.

Thread for Pedia entries.

zappara · Aug 13, 2009

chumpy56 said:
I would be willing to help with the pedia entries.... is there a certain format you want used? How would I get them to you?

I've used in other pedia entries usually wikipedia or other similar information sources. I know wiki's information might not always be entirely historically accurate but it's good enough source place for pedia entries (I usually skip text where it says "citation needed"). With this in mind you can post pedia entries here or you can just provide me a link to the source. I'd prefer to have a link to the source so I can check it out as I like to read them through before adding to RoM. For tech quotes I don't need sources.

AAranda · Aug 13, 2009

Glassoid said:
Super Hero
Super Villains
Epic Creatures.

Already said it but had to say it again.

RoM is a "historical like" mod , if you want that kind of things i recomend you fictionalizatio IV MOD or fall from heaven mod
For something more closer to your request , i suggest you try my Americans civilizations mod , wich includes severals "patriots" , working similar to heros or superheros but beeing historical subjects , in RoM way

CivFanCCS · Aug 13, 2009

Zappara,

Just a few suggestions for .80:

1. Wonders that grant free techs to the builder should be changed. Instead of a free technology how about a free scientist and some gold? For instance take the oracle wonder at the beginning of the game. It's not all that powerful when playing a quick or normal speed game but on snail where you can bee-line alphabet(120 turns) with it and then trade freely for 100 turns before the other civs even reach it is kinda bad. Same thing with the Theory of Evolution wonder; a player can build it and they get 2 techs for free which is ok depending on game speed but it comes at a point in the game when you are just getting into the industrial age armies which then gives that player a huge advantage in military strength.

My suggestions are:

Oracle: 1 Free priest and 2000 gold. (From pilgrams coming to observe the site)

Theory of Evolution : 1 Free scientist, +15% research rate for the built city, +2 Health per city.

I think there are a couple more wonders that give a free tech away, the problem is that usually one civ gets ahead and builds all of them. Plus it's so easy for a human to take advantage of them over the AI even on hard difficulty levels.

Just a thought.

Version 2.8 discussion

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