Dr kossin #2

Thanks Artichoker... 1 city is better than 2 obviously as you point out. I'll add it to my decision filter algorithm

The marble wonders were cheap and have secured my GPP source for a long time so I don't think it's overdoing. The ToA and SoZ are for failure gold to allow more deficit research. It's better than building wealth as I have the appropriate resources. I just hope Toku doesn't build it, he does it a lot in my games I find.

Canons+Janissaries are definitively stronger than Janissaries+Trebs but will come in quite a bit later, unless I manage to pull of another Liberalism slingshot (I do have a good source of GS and could bulb Philo to run Pacifism but my techrate is too low). Still, unless they start teching away (they shouldn't, but you never know), Canons will give me a much better kill ratio and I'll need less units. Drafting can always come in later to provide more units.

Round 4

Since Calendar was up for grabs, I researched 1 turn into it and took the trade with Toku.


I then headed for Civil Service via Code of Laws, for cheap courthouses.
I finally built the horses+Fish city at the location Artichoker had suggested.

Several things on the following screenshot.
1.Galley is finished and loaded ready to take out that annoying archer.
2.Mao built MoM, which will be a nice war prize.
3.SoZ built for failure gold landed me 264.


Speaking of SoZ... turns out I was right.


Since Mao already had CoL, I traded it to Toku for Monarchy which I still didn't have.


After popping an Artist at low odds in the Capital (which I used to trigger a GA to allow anarchy-free change to Bureaucracy), I got a GS from 2 scientists that I had running since the BC era. I may come to regret this decision, but I'll get to that in just a moment.


Still in the Golden Age, I did another civic change for more GPP.


On paper it looks pretty good.


But in the game it gets you


Another Great Artist. He's sleeping in Istanbul, to trigger a further Golden Age down the line. This meant I had to manually research Education. I could have waited for the next GS but I didn't want to chance it. I also hope to trade some of the prerequisite for Chemistry/Steel so I did not research down the Machinery/Engineering line.

Speaking of which, another trade I got:


Toku is turning out to be my best trading buddy
Once Education came in, I put the game on hold until tomorrow.

Forges have just been whipped almost everywhere and my cities are ready to start on building Universities.

Here's the tech overview



Mao's land


My land... Mao culture bombed his useless Rice city, preventing me from getting the fish. This was very frustrating because it made the city almost useless -_-


A look to the south...


I've also begun building the GT in Bursa as it might come in handy in the future.

Demographics


I'm 3rd in GNP, just slightly behind Mao as you can see.


This is where I'm at. Had I gotten a GS instead of a GA, I might consider try to double bulb Chemistry and take Steel from Liberalism again. Unfortunately I don't think given this particular situation that I can get to it in time. My options are Gunpowder and Nationalism.
Given Marble (currently trading it for gpt), I can perhaps get the Taj Mahal to help research towards Steel while Bursa drafts a bunch of Janissaries, leaving my other cities free to build Trebuchets/Canons.
OTOH, I could take Gunpowder and go for a quick Trebuchet/Janissary attack to weaken Mao while heading to Steel.
Of course I'd feel way more confident with Steel but it's a long way off. The good part is I see what Mao is researching as I set my EP on him so decisions can be altered as I go along.

You should've settled the second GA, or used it to culture-bomb back Mao. Take Nationalism from Lib then go Gunpowder -> Up the Chem line to Steel. Do a Cannon/Janissary war vs. Mao. The good thing about Cannons is that you don't really have to have a lot of units in stacks. You can make 3 stacks of 3 Cannons and 5 Janissarys to quickly take out 3 of Mao's power-house cities. The only problem with your war is it might be a lot of negative diplo points towards Toku as well considering him and Mao are buddy buddy.

I second using the GA for a culture bomb

IMHO, GT>universities and land>oxford. If you trade lib techs aggresively than tou need two research two techs lib and gunpowder after that kill both of them [Mao first].

If you wont to bulb lib, you should research compass; bulb lib w/ the next GS and trade machinery for compass/paper/some gold (if avail). research optics. And get caravels, you are a few turns from lib, which you may either research (2-3 turns or so after the bulb) or get construction and {edit} take astronomy.

Reason: you won't have the draft city so soon.

whip overflow into GT could do that city now is big enough. of course if university is built first you can follow with astro economics and nuclear warfare...

Bulbing Liberalism>Nationalism (build Taj) is definitively in the books, provided I don't get another Great Artist. I also thought Land>Universities since my Capital isn't exactly a Science powerhouse but I'm still lacking a lot of techs for a successful war... Construction, Machinery and Engineering, which neither will likely trade.

I think I can gift Paper to Mao to get him Friendly thus allowing me to trade for his techs then. (He's at +7 currently, it would put me at +11 although I am not sure about hidden modifiers here - Mao has no starting penalty and I'm at the bottom of the score so it should do it.) Toku is at +9 but I don't think I can gain much more than +1 from religion, another +1 from OB and another +1 from resources (also he has an inherent -1 to the human)

I also need Gunpowder and Chemistry+Steel for Canons further down the line. Chemistry will require Printing Press to be bulbed... I thought of whipping the GT while building a Cats army and then I can draft a bunch of Janissaries while building Trebuchets everywhere else. Getting my hands on Theocracy would also be quite nice for better promotions (requires that I spread around Confucianism though).
I've also got enough EP to revolt 2 of Mao's cities (50% discount otherwise just 1) and might accumulate enough to revolt a third one down the line so a few spies would be handy.

I can set some cities on wealth so research stays at 100% research(no military to build yet and while in Pacifism it's not the best of ideas) to get there a bit faster.

On the plus side, it looks like Mao does not have Feudalism = less longbows while Toku is willing to trade it at Pleased??? This isn't supposed to be possible by the XML I thought as he requires that 100% of his known civs have the tech for him to trade it.

I will try to get a forced Peace with Toku as I declare war on Mao, or maybe I can bribe him to attack? As Mao's cities are almost all very good though, I don't want him capturing any cities as I'm a greedy Ottoman so I'll have to make sure he doesn't make any progress if I do this.

kossin said:

... (build Taj)..Construction, Machinery and Engineering, which neither will likely trade...

I think I can gift Paper to Mao to get him Friendly...

Click to expand...

You really plan to do these harmful things?

So you suggest I just revolt his cities and slam in with Janissaries?

I suggest having a clear pan and execute it. I would go for drafted jannisaries with some siege or spies if availaible.

The main problem is your tech rate. the sooner you get mao land the better. That is just mine view at things although. The suggestion to take astro was also very good. It is your game afterall.

No feudalism = jans can kill archers even without taking down defenses. If you can get them early, then they're murder.

I see your point yes. Mao is pretty weak as I see it now so I find war more interesting right now, also give Janissaries.
So Compass>Lib(bulb)>Nationalism (don't build Taj , use the on Units). I still need Construction and would like Engineering as well (requires Machinery). Theology can be postponed somewhere later in the war or jut not at all. You did mention trading lib techs aggressively, so I should try to gift him Compass to get him Friendly to trade Paper for Machinery (1 turn of research or so) and Education for Engineering+something perhaps.

I need to think about it some more it seems...

Mao can get Feudalism from Toku though as he has several techs on him.

it you go oxford then astro it is, you can trade edu/liberalism and tech your way to cannons w/ much improved sci rate. do not bomb the GA if so.
anyways I'd tech compass no matter what before straight lib. since you can trade it immediately.

if you gt draft you should skip oxford imo. btw i think you can get bulb. lib->astro and manually tech. nat. and even build taj... looking how bad mao tech. rate is.

but it is your game after all like mentioned.

i am not fan of gifting techs. How close you are to Mao limit?

After toku trades feudalism to mao construction should be on table. If toku gets machinery that will be tradeable [think so]. These techs [military] have value dependingly on unit strength or something like that. Can't found proper Dan's post at moment.

Bigest problem is trading for engineering. That might require to get Mao to friendly. Other techs you can pick without much problem.

Guess compass bulb lib is good path.

I haven't traded with Mao since Currency so it should be at 0.
I always wondered why AIs wouldn't trade Construction away, I'll try to find Dan's post then.
Not sure when Toku might trade Feudalism to Mao I just hope it's not too far away.

I like taking Astro from Lib but it requires Compass, Machinery and Optics. If I get Mao Friendly then I can trade for Machinery, problem solved, otherwise it looks like a gamble with the unknown civ with the 400-something GNP to delay Lib so much.

I'll play 2 turns soon as if I don't get a Scientist I need to manually tech Liberalism, again.

Round 5

As the round opened, I switched research to Compass in order to open up the Liberalism bulb. 2 turns later, luck finally came on our side, providing a much elusive GS.


The next turn, Mao was finally willing to trade. I put 1 turn into Machinery and then traded for Construction+Machinery.


Research was then set on Optics with Astronomy as the Liberalism freebie. Not only would it let us meet other AIs, it would give intercontinental trade routes, resources and the opportunity to trade for older techs. Everything went as planned:


I built 2 caravels on the turn following and sent them east and west. Soon, I met these guys:
To the east, Saladin. Looks like he knew Tokugawa for a while. The good thing is they couldn't get intercontinental trade routes


To the west, Justinian, the AP builder.


Further east, Charlemagne who was very backwards.


And to the west, Hammurabi, the founder of Judaism.


After Liberalism, research was set on Nationalism for drafting. The Globe Theater had been completed with the aid of several whips. I got another GS and I triggered another Golden Age with the sleeping Artist for civic changes.


I added Free Religion in as it didn't send Tokugawa under Pleased and the overseas crew is a fanatic one.


Afterwards I started researching Gunpowder for Janissaries. Cities at this point were building *Trebuchets. I took a tech overview screenshot just to show you how slow the AI really was. Keep in mind this is after I've gifted techs/back traded.


Yea... I could have taken Steel from Liberalism but better safe than sorry. After Gunpowder, I went for Economics for the free Great Merchant and Free Market as I had intercontinental trade routes.



Then, some great news hit me in 1190AD.


Tokugawa has declared war on Mao Zedong!
Alright! Saves me quite a bit of trouble. I was monitoring Toku's stacks as well as Mao's defenses for a while prior to the DoW so I was not to worried about my safety.

The said stack...


Mao stole Guilds from me (got it in a trade) so I had vision in his entire territory. It gave a nice look on the war.



You can also see I was not inactive, building up my own stack. I was just waiting for the inevitable to happen...


More Diplo points
Then it was my turn... sent in the spies first:


I took the rice city on the second turn of war and razed it (there was barely anything in it). What an annoyance. It will be rebuilt 1E in a few turns.


On the same turn, I took my old blocker city which I kept.


Coming back to the free Great Merchant, he's currently In Transit as FedEx will tell you...


I used the shift trick to see how much gold I'll get and it's somewhere around 2100 from the ToA city, Thessalonica.


I stopped the round here.

An overview of Justinian+Hammurabi's continent.


Saladin+Charlemagne's


Techs


I can take this trade with Saladin to inch me closer to rifles:


Moreover, it might allow me to bribe him into Free Market as Charlemagne has recently switched to Mercantilism. (I can gift it to a few AIs and bribe them I think).

You can see Justinian is in WHEOOHRN mode. I'm his target since the moment he went in, he only knew me and Hammurabi, but was Friendly with the latter. Now, the good news is he doesn't even have Optics so I'll worry about him later.

Going forward, I'm not sure I need to bribe Tokugawa to peace right now, I don't think he can take more than 1 city and Mao's power is still fairly high. I still have enough EP's to revolt 1 city after which it's back to bombardment. Steel is another 20+ turns away so it could take a while to do some damage.

kossin said:

I then headed for Civil Service via Code of Laws, for cheap courthouses.
I finally built the horses+Fish city at the location Artichoker had suggested.

Click to expand...

Your original location at 1W would have been good if you had settled Konya at 1SE, on the plains hill and picking up several riverside tiles...but you don't have stone, so Moai is not a big deal at this point of the game.

Since you don't have stone, Moai is secondary to having good land, and it is very easy to find another Moai city by the time you have stone. At the moment, the hammer cost of Moai makes it harmful, rather than helpful.

In the final analysis, your original location of 1W for the Fish/Horse city would have been best, but only if you had settled Konya at 1SE. By settling Konya at its current location, you already permanantly lose 1 riverside plains.

But in the game it gets you

Click to expand...

Speak of the devil...this is why I prefer to use Philosphical leaders (like Suleiman) and prefer not to build an early National Epic with these leaders.

My land... Mao culture bombed his useless Rice city, preventing me from getting the fish. This was very frustrating because it made the city almost useless -_-

Click to expand...

Speak of the devil again...

But looking at your last update, it looks like you are winning now.

If Toku still has Xian under seige, I would send a short stack over there to see if you can sneak in and capture it after he breaks down the defense (or better yet, after he suicides his entire stack). There are some convenient hills 2 tiles away to do your watching from, do you have any cavalry at all?

No mounted units at all unfortunately, although I could make some knights to help with reinforcements, but I'll still mostly need siege. Only Istanbul has a Stable so it would make a few turns without any units produced while accelerating units later on.

Regarding Xian, I believe Toku is still sieging it and they had about equal forces (slight edge for Toku). I'm not too sure he can take it. I would rather not as it would give him horses making his conquest a bit harder. Mao will have reinforced the city but I don't know how many troops he sent there as he has many fronts to take care of I could send a spy to investigate and see what's happening in 2 turns from now.

As for my own plans, I would like to take Chengdu and Beijing ASAP. In fact, most Mao cities are just excellent and I look forward to getting them. Another good one is Shangai with the shrine. I can always take peace/cease fire and finish him off come canons, then turn on Toku.