Dr kossin #4

kossin said:

I played a bit more. A few things: the tech rate on this map is horrible. I wonder what's up with that. Hopefully HC will start picking up the pace as he built The Colossus.

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A bad tech rate is OK as long as your rivals' tech rate is also bad. But you have one thing going in your favor--you built the Pyramids, which allows you to run Representation. Once you have enough food to run specialists in all your cities, you can make a move in the tech race.

But to be honest, it's been a long time since I've played a game myself in which I got the Pyramids early. So I won't be able to help you much on how to get the most out of it.

I'm really not liking this map so much... I hope the next one isn't caught up in jungle again.

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Jungle makes things tough, I agree. Have you considered using coastal tiles as a temporary means to grow your cities and gain commerce...that is, during the transition to a full specialist economy?

UWHabs said:

I'd continue exploring. Especially down south, on the off-chance you have an island chain off the coast with iron.

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Good point... I'll explore the rest of our continent and if I get lucky I might find iron somewhere. Moreover, Carracks might give me a chance to secure Iron faster I suppose.

dirtyparrot said:

The land does not look that bad, although with only 3 happy resources, it might be necessary to switch to HR somewhat early. Lighthouses will buy you time while waiting to build those workers and clear the jungle. Currency will help alot with those inter-continental trade routes.

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I'm not really into running HR when Representation is available, especially given the lack of rivers for cottaging. Lighthouses will be a priority in new cities after granary/monument. I'll still get another 2 workers out before more settlers I think.

Artichoker said:

A bad tech rate is OK as long as your rivals' tech rate is also bad. But you have one thing going in your favor--you built the Pyramids, which allows you to run Representation. Once you have enough food to run specialists in all your cities, you can make a move in the tech race.

But to be honest, it's been a long time since I've played a game myself in which I got the Pyramids early. So I won't be able to help you much on how to get the most out of it.

Jungle makes things tough, I agree. Have you considered using coastal tiles as a temporary means to grow your cities and gain commerce...that is, during the transition to a full specialist economy?

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I meant the teching on the map was bad, not just mine. (Alphabet unknown by 1AD on Immortal???). As you pointed out, with The Pyramids I should be fine though.
I think Dirk/Duckweed advocate growing first to cap and then working the scientists. It does make more sense I guess - in the long run you get more and have the possibility of working mines in case you need it. It just delays early research, but it doesn't look as if it will be needed right now anyway .
Coastal tiles will be quite useful with lighthouses(even more so if I ever go after HC to get The Colossus pre-Astronomy)... too bad I'm not Organized this time. Mehmed would have been great for this map.

dirtyparrot said:

You have some really peaceful neighbours. The land does not look that bad, although with only 3 happy resources, it might be necessary to switch to HR somewhat early. Lighthouses will buy you time while waiting to build those workers and clear the jungle. Currency will help alot with those inter-continental trade routes.

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Agree about the Lighthouses, but not early HR.

First of all, Kossin has the Pyramids, so Representation is available.

Second of all, once Calendar comes in, he should be able to trade away Silk for other happiness resources and extra money.

Artichoker said:

First of all, Kossin has the Pyramids, so Representation is available.

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I forgot about that one. In retrospect, you were probably better off going for GLH than the Pyramids.

Round 3
Another not-much-happened round, where I grew my cities and teched through Civil Service, with nobody really close to me It didn't take me long to play, maybe I should have spent a bit more time on it though I might throw in another round later today...

As the round began, my workboat found yet another AI.


Hammurabi was his worst enemy so I started with a big -4 to relations there. Gandhi finished Currency but was not willing to trade it so I upped the slider at 100%... it really increased total income once it came in. It also let me sell some older techs for to the likes of Brennus to get them un-mad.
I found who built the Great Lighthouse and who looks like will be my challenger in this game... once again a Worst Enemy trade that was alleviated by an old tech for gold. He was in war-mode when I met him.


I settled the last 2 cities I had planned and built 2 more workers, yet I still need a few more as I only have 7 and now I need to chain-irrigate. 2~3 more will do the job methinks. I picked up Calendar in a trade recently so not that many resources are hooked up as of now.
As I finished the round, I found the last AI, who was getting the bad end of Justinian.


As Civil Service was completed, I stopped the round. Bureaucracy is an obvious civic change, but what about Caste System?


My 2 newer cities need to whip some infra true, but maybe I can get lucky and squeeze out a GS or 2, then switch back via a Golden Age or just lose another turn somewhere. I don't have any Oxford University obvious candidate at this point so another reason to stay out of Slavery.
Tech situation is really something for Immortal...


HC will only trade Metal Casting for Civil Service since he is teching Monarchy (he will only offer 40 gold for it), maybe I should put a turn or 2 in MC and trade for it.
It isn't helped with all the hatred from different religions...


I placed Paper as a placeholder. Trading maps will give me a good look at everyone's land and most likely net me a good amount of gold. Finally, an overview of the land


Lucky me I traded for Archery with Gandhi or I still would only be able to build Warriors ... otherwise that barb city would not be still standing, I can promise you that.
Justinian built the AP (Hindu) which has not spread to me.
My only concern is Hammurabi in war mode. I can't see him coming for me since we don't even share borders and he has a Worst Enemy, but better players than me have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar before me in this kind of situation. In any case, there isn't much I can do about it right now
I've stayed out of adopting a State Religion so that the Diplo isn't completely bad (it isn't great either).


Techwise, I could go down the Astronomy line or Liberalism. Taoism from Philosophy is still open so I'm confident I can grab Liberalism, perhaps taking Astronomy as a freebie. Then again, Gandhi has 13 cities! If I grab them all, I'll have around 20 which should be good for any VC I choose. Maybe Space this time around? I have a lot land that can be workshopped.

You are safe from Hammurabi, he is on another landmass sharing borders with Brennus, Alexander and Justinian. One of them will be his victim. Even if he did want to attack you Capac is annoyed with Hammurabi and therefore refuse to open borders with Hammurabi.

Windsor said:

You are safe from Hammurabi, he is on another landmass sharing borders with Brennus, Alexander and Justinian. One of them will be his victim. Even if he did want to attack you Capac is annoyed with Hammurabi and therefore refuse to open borders with Hammurabi.

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Ah yes, I had looked at open border agreements but forgot that point. Thanks!

Round 4
Another peaceful round with not so many pictures.

Since I got no comments, I went ahead with my plan. I revolted to Bureaucracy+Caste System. Coimbra and Lisbon each ran as many scientists as they could, sometimes starving. The first GP was a Scientist, which I used for a Golden Age. Why?
-Settling was an okay move but I still did not have an Academy
-An Academy would have been nice but only contributed 20ish science per turn on average.
-I had researched Paper and Philosophy first so there was no pressing need to get Education. Moreover, it allowed me to switch to Buddhism/Pacifism and get out 2 more quick Great Scientists. The first I used on an Education bulb, while the second was used on a Liberalism bulb (researched Compass in between, but make sure you don't have Machinery)as in Dr kossin #2 round 5.


Now, this doesn't improve my empire directly, but it gives me a technological edge which I intend to put to good use. I researched Nationalism next while backfilling for Aesthetics+Literature by selling Compass around. I couldn't trade for Music as The Sistine Chapel hasn't been completed yet so i researched it myself. As Liberalism is one turn from completion, I stopped the round. Military Tradition is up for grabs and after teching Gunpowder, I can get iron, although it is pricey.


I built a couple HAs to get the barbarian city to the south and ended up getting lucky with dice rolls:


It'll open up the Heroic Epic to make more units quickly. A view of my current lands...


Techs



Gandhi's land


Combined with my focusing Espionage on him and his stealing of 2 techs, I have complete vision in his cities. This will be a nice addition to my empire. I've got enough EP accumulated to revolt 6~7 cities. As long as there aren't so many pikes, it should be quite easy. Only Justinian has Engineering at the moment but that could change.



The others...


Diplo looks fine for now.


For next round:

-I've started building Moai in Coimbra as the barb city will be too late to get it. It has fish and corn so it can run several specialists for the rest of the game.
-Where do I put the HE? Lisbon is the only sensible choice atm but that can be fixed: I can change Guimares's tiles assignment to get 16 a turn which is okay.
-Once Liberalism comes in I'll go Free Religion. Pacifism was cheaper than Paganism as I have so few units
-I can trade for Machinery/Feudalism or Drama since Philosophy, Paper and Music are starting to spread.
-My cities have grown to a decent size and are ready for heavy whipping.

Don't think there's much else to consider given the path I used up to here. Rifling is far and my research rate isn't that great.

Pound Gandhi with cuirassiers. You can always cut the iron deal short by pillaging your own 1 of resource that you're trading. But since the HA --> cuirassier upgrade is expensive, it's probably better to just suck up the 50 gpt for 10 turns and whip as many as you can. You can worry about the ramifications of stacked whipping after you whittle Gandhi down.

RE: Iron shortage.

First, is that really an unclaimed iron sitting in the middle of the jungle on the neighboring land mass, or is your map just old?

Second, there seems to be a lot of black ocean still out there so there is still the possibility of finding an Iron island. Can you get optics from HC and build some Carricks?

Third, Ghandi is keeping an iron mine warm for you on his southern coast. How many turns would you have to pay Hammy for iron to build up enough of a force to take it?

50 GPT seems a bit steep of a price to pay for iron, at this stage of the game. You could try looking off-shore. Make a quick run for optics then grab Astro from Liberalism, but that's a long way to go to get some iron.

But man, especially with the EPs on Ghandi, it'd be a great time for a cuira-spy war. Can you just tech out to rifling/MT and take Ghandi out with Cavalry?

Or another choice is build trebs, draft muskets, and use those to take out Ghandi's 3 southern cities, which will let you get the iron there, and build cuirassier/spy/cavalry (by that point) to take out his core. Looking at your land, your cap isn't great, so I'd go drafting (will also help your EP, but you do lack a good globe site) and take out Ghandi. If you can grab his land, you'll be set for life (either heading off to space, or taking out the other continent).

I can cancel the corn deal I have with Hammurabi for gpt, that'll lower the price to 36gpt which is much better.
Optics+Astronomy will be a while to tech, unless I grab it from Liberalism - but then I have to tech Military Tradition. It's too big of a detour to be worth it. The sooner Gandhi's lands are in my hands, the better. Similarily, Rifling is even further away.
The 'unclaimed' iron - old map I traded for once I got Paper - is next to Brennus's door, again it will be a while before I can claim it.

I'm guessing 10 turns will give me around 15 Cuirassiers, which should be enough to claim the Iron in Gandhi's south.

I'd feel more comfortable with around 25 Cuirassiers, but can always take a cease fire once I've claimed the Iron for myself with 15 Cuirassiers. It would also allow me to move spies around for the next attack. I'll need about 5~7 turns to claim it in my estimation, and then another 6~8 turns for the city to come out of revolt...

Worst case scenario I'll need the iron deal for about 25 turns. 700 gold is a lot but sacking cities will pay some of it - I'll keep the slider low, most of my research comes from rep-powered scientists anyway... which leads me to think Biology would be a good tech to get in the future

If you're trading lots of GPT for iron, I'd even think about stacking whip anger. Whip 2-3 times per city, and you might be able to get your 20 in 10 turns (especially if you already have the HE up and running, since that city should be able to pump one out every 3-4 turns on its own).

Hey Kossin, interesting game you've got, all techs and no resources. Anyway i think you've got a few choices here. Personally i think that you are well positioned to draft a bunch of rifles supported with trebs. However there ar alternatives, like going for cannons building a bunch of trebs and doing the old (learnt it yesterday) trade for iron for one turn, do one of the best and cheapest upgrades in the game (trebs to cannons 110g apiece) then cancel and overrun ghandi supported with muskets and maybe grens later on.
Just two observations,
1. you probably have more time than you think with lib. Unless HC goes straight for it (the AI rarely does) you should be able to get either rifling or steel.
2. Never underestimate how easy warring with Ghandi is. Seriously, he'll offer to cap if you take a worker just to "spare any more bloodshed". Even if his units are up to date, he probably won't be building many of them and he almost never has a SoD.

Anyway good luck but despite the lack of resources, you shouldn't find it too hard to win this game. (you could probably even go culture if you wanted, it's not optimal but its possible)

Drafting is a possibility but Rifling is so far - I only get in the 300bpt range! With all those cities he might even start teching up fast, especially with his Shrine.
I'll lose more units this way - although spies will help - but get land faster and end the war sooner which, imo, outweigh the alternative.

If I decide to go Domination/Conquest, then Drafting will most certainly be in my cards.

Lib won't stay uncaimed for that much longer, I think the whipped Currys and spys is the best way to go, a big stack mind, your a long way from easy iron. Claim Gandhis iron take a short cease-fire to repostion your spys and it should be easy.

Not the round yet as I don't have that much time right now, I'll complete it later.
But just a little teaser...

Lucky bastard

HAHA! Oh wow, that changes a lot of things. Same thing happened to me when i was playing as Justinian, I had no iron but did have horses, 5 turns before i got guilds iron popped and i cataphracted the world into submission.

This is a good thing to remember though, next time you are lacking for metals, try working as many mines as possible.

bobbyboy29 said:

HAHA! Oh wow, that changes a lot of things. Same thing happened to me when i was playing as Justinian, I had no iron but did have horses, 5 turns before i got guilds iron popped and i cataphracted the world into submission.

This is a good thing to remember though, next time you are lacking for metals, try working as many mines as possible.

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That would be lucky, however that piece of advice is foolhardy. The chances of popping what you want and in time should not be bet on, rather to already have a plan for an alternative.

I am sure you were not actually advocating working mines in hopes of popping iron as a valid option, but I just wanted to say.