Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
I see no attachment.
Civilizations, Leaders and Traits
- Thread starter Deliverator
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I see no attachment.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Gah! I must have attached it as an Excel file directly, rather than zipping it, which of course failed. Its on my home pc, so I'll post it tonight.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Attachment.
davidlallen
Deity
In your sheet, I see several new traits. Political appears to be Creative, renamed, which is fine. There are three new ones, Innovative, Trader and Mechanized. I don't know how to get -50% unit upgrade cost, or +1 trade routes per city. So I can implement Mechanized easily, but not Innovative or Trader. It may be that you found these traits in other mods, where there have been sdk changes to add these flags; can you say which mods they are from?
Can we move innovative and trader to other traits? Malky is industrious / innovative; Rhombur is innovative / mechanized; Armand is financial / trader. Suppose we change to Malky industrious / protective; Rhombur political / mechanized; Armand financial / philosophical.
Both Liet-Kynes and Stilgar are expansive / charismatic; change Liet to political / charismatic.
We would like to add another BT leader, say Goya Solidar as expansive / industrious and another Ecaz leader, say Prad Vidal as industrious / protective. This also balances out the count of each trait a little.
Updated sheet attached, changed fields in yellow color.
Can we move innovative and trader to other traits? Malky is industrious / innovative; Rhombur is innovative / mechanized; Armand is financial / trader. Suppose we change to Malky industrious / protective; Rhombur political / mechanized; Armand financial / philosophical.
Both Liet-Kynes and Stilgar are expansive / charismatic; change Liet to political / charismatic.
We would like to add another BT leader, say Goya Solidar as expansive / industrious and another Ecaz leader, say Prad Vidal as industrious / protective. This also balances out the count of each trait a little.
Updated sheet attached, changed fields in yellow color.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Tweaked, for more culture and more building bonuses.
Creative was too weak.
Trader isn't very important, and could be dropped. I'm pretty sure there is an Ingenuity trait in FFH (on Khazad dwarves) which gives -50% unit upgrade costs.
By move... to, do you mean substitute ... for.
Trader is unimportant, but I quite like innovative. Alternatively, adopt my Ixian design, where the Ixian UB reduces unit upkeep costs in that city, as here. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8635159&postcount=13
Which solves your problems with Technocracy religion and Ixian overlap.
Another alternative possibility, is to change Innovative to Scientific, and give a science boost rather than an upgrade cost reduction.
In any case, this was just a start-point, but I think we need more traits in general, and we need to move away from Spiritual and Aggressive, which had too many.
Political doesn't really make sense for Kynes; he ignores his political role and is deeply apolitical, and has no personal political power. Innovative or philosophical would suit better, or change Stilgar to aggressive/expansive.
Prad Vidal should probably be aggressive/trader or aggressive/financial, or political/financial. Neither protective nor industrious make sense with his personality as betrayed (basically, he betrays Armand with the Moritani, helping in his assassination plot and staging a coup at home.
I don't see expansive as really a Tleilaxu theme, though I guess you could argue that biological expertise could improve ecology. I'd say Spiritual/industrious or innovative/industrious.
Slvynn
Duke Vector fon Pixel
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I'd like also another Trait - Prescient, which have its place - for Paul, Leto, and BG leaders.
Not sure what it could do.
Also i think that Leto I should be charismatic - he was charismatic, actually, making friends with Fremen and gathering loyal friends to him like Duncan. I also not sure if financial fits him so much...
I also agree that Trader is unimportant - there is Financial already, and they are too similar by their meaning.
Not sure what it could do.
Also i think that Leto I should be charismatic - he was charismatic, actually, making friends with Fremen and gathering loyal friends to him like Duncan. I also not sure if financial fits him so much...
I also agree that Trader is unimportant - there is Financial already, and they are too similar by their meaning.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
That is correct. See wiki.
I'd vote Philosophical/Charismatic or Philosophical/Expansive for Kynes, and Aggressive/Expansive for Stilgar as you suggest.
Some other trait ideas that are just words, but could give Espionage or other benefits:
Treacherous (Baron)
Insidious (Ordos)
Manipulative (Bene Gesserit)
A Pre-Born trait for Leto II and Alia might be good, purely because that concept is not in the mod yet.
There are some interesting ideas for traits in this FFH2 modmod.
Ahriman
Tyrant
First I would say, any leader trait that we add needs to have a clear gameplay purpose.
I think we should avoid adding traits for pure flavor unless we can really think of good gameplay reasons for them.
Also, Bene Gesserit aren't prescient.
How about Charismatic/Political?
Charismatic would actually stack nicely with the Atreides pilot school, giving level 3
thopters straight off.
Political serve nicely as a peacetime civic complement for a trader civ - and for a spice-oriented civ.
Sounds fine.
We could also rename Expansive to Ecologist. We'd have to take it away from the Tleilaxu though and replace with something else.
I considered these sorts of things, but I decided to avoid them. Espionage is/should never really be powerful enough that its going to be a big game-swinger, particularly in AI hands (the AI is never going to be *good* at espionage even if it uses it) and so any trait that encourages this is likely to be very weak. We should be striving for balance across traits.
The War of Assassins Civic and some factional UBs are sufficient to encourage particular espionage, a trait is too narrow to do this.
Just because a particular character has a given personality aspect or feature doesn't mean that will make a good Civ4 Trait.
I think we should avoid adding traits for pure flavor unless we can really think of good gameplay reasons for them.
Also, Bene Gesserit aren't prescient.
How about Charismatic/Political?
Charismatic would actually stack nicely with the Atreides pilot school, giving level 3
thopters straight off.
How about Financial/Political for Archduke Armand?
Political serve nicely as a peacetime civic complement for a trader civ - and for a spice-oriented civ.
Sounds fine.
We could also rename Expansive to Ecologist. We'd have to take it away from the Tleilaxu though and replace with something else.
I considered these sorts of things, but I decided to avoid them. Espionage is/should never really be powerful enough that its going to be a big game-swinger, particularly in AI hands (the AI is never going to be *good* at espionage even if it uses it) and so any trait that encourages this is likely to be very weak. We should be striving for balance across traits.
The War of Assassins Civic and some factional UBs are sufficient to encourage particular espionage, a trait is too narrow to do this.
Again though, what would that do in gameplay terms?
Just because a particular character has a given personality aspect or feature doesn't mean that will make a good Civ4 Trait.
Slvynn
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Seems good
Also yes - nice synergy for thopters, and if we take Atreides leaders - Leto I have most assossiation with 'thopters, Alia and Leto II less
Seems good
I think other name will be better - otherwise it will be too narrow, there is worker bonus which i dont know how to relate to ecology
But if yes then:
Also if i remeber well - Ecaz home planet is very Ecology-Friendly place, At least Prad Vidal can get it....
Spoier contain some stuff for further speculation, observations about Leto II, and kinda proposition for all, which is very optional, but, i think, follow lore more precisely.
Spoiler :
Ahriman
Tyrant
You brought this up before, and I answered it then.
Quizarate is, *by definition*, the religion of Leto II. Its the bureaucratic theocracy of Leto's Empire, constricting mankind and forcing them along the Golden Path. Leto basically take's Alia's religious infrastructure and runs with it - and declares himself a god. I don't see any major distinction between the religion of Alia and Leto II, in how it affects the day to day lives of ordinary people.
Shai-Hulad religion isn't about worshipping a worm - whether they be a real worm or Leto himself. Its about representing the old traditions of the Fremen and the native peoples of Dune circa the start of the book Dune. Leto II does not represent the Old Ways - he represents a very New Galactic Order wayof doing things.
Golden Path works better as a building than as a wonder, because it is something that gets built everywhere - the golden path isn't somethnig that just affects one city, its designed to affect all of human society. And it isn't a single creation that is suddenly there, its a slowly spreading affect that takes hold of cities one by one.
Quizarate is, *by definition*, the religion of Leto II. Its the bureaucratic theocracy of Leto's Empire, constricting mankind and forcing them along the Golden Path. Leto basically take's Alia's religious infrastructure and runs with it - and declares himself a god. I don't see any major distinction between the religion of Alia and Leto II, in how it affects the day to day lives of ordinary people.
Shai-Hulad religion isn't about worshipping a worm - whether they be a real worm or Leto himself. Its about representing the old traditions of the Fremen and the native peoples of Dune circa the start of the book Dune. Leto II does not represent the Old Ways - he represents a very New Galactic Order wayof doing things.
Golden Path works better as a building than as a wonder, because it is something that gets built everywhere - the golden path isn't somethnig that just affects one city, its designed to affect all of human society. And it isn't a single creation that is suddenly there, its a slowly spreading affect that takes hold of cities one by one.
davidlallen
Deity
"Final" version, any more feedback?
Slvynn
Duke Vector fon Pixel
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There is an double speed for CHOAM directorate on Political which can be built only by GP, i think it should be removed from benefits - anyways you cant build it using normal hammer production.
Also once we wanted to add discount for Disciple units on Spiritual - And i will explain why its better - because of Qizirate
Game water not allow to grow cities too big, and Qizirate have +5 happy already for Golden Path. But very expensive missionaries. It seems to me that it will be better to provide just discount on disciple units , because with all offworld resources that +1 happy bonus seem to be insignificant (with temple speed halved espessially, which become primary building). Mahdi temple may take its own bonus because it have not disciples.
Also once we wanted to add discount for Disciple units on Spiritual - And i will explain why its better - because of Qizirate
Game water not allow to grow cities too big, and Qizirate have +5 happy already for Golden Path. But very expensive missionaries. It seems to me that it will be better to provide just discount on disciple units , because with all offworld resources that +1 happy bonus seem to be insignificant (with temple speed halved espessially, which become primary building). Mahdi temple may take its own bonus because it have not disciples.
Ahriman
Tyrant
If you don't like Innovative, then can we have Scientific?
+X% beakers (10? 15?), double speed libraries and research labs
Expansive might be to weak. Maybe we should add double speed catchbasins and reservoirs back?
* * *
IIRC, CHOAM directorate is the Landsraad religion cathedral, not its shrine. The cathedral building is the one I intended, anyway.
Do you mean missionaries here?
I'm not sure. Cheaper missionaries might be a bad idea.
As an alternative, how about: missionaries start with Mobility 1? That would help out a little in the early game.
Qizarate missionaries are *designed* be very expensive, because they wipe out every other religion when they spread. They are better than a missionary plus inquisitor; IIRC an inquisitor wipes the non-state religions of the owner of the city, not of the owner of the inquisitor. So you can't use inquisitors to thin out enemy religions except in people who you can force to adopt your own state religion.
If anythnig, I think they are probably too cheap.
I find happiness matters at high difficulty levels and lategame, but if we think that happiness is too apparent then we should find other means of cutting down the available happiness.
Also, there is no real way to have happiness feel scarce *and* have water feel scarce. Your city size is either capped by happiness OR water.
Slvynn
Duke Vector fon Pixel
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I like this idea of mobility - but we have not such promotion
I agree that missionaries are too cheap
thats alright, but less hapiness - more curve for difficulty level challenge
yes happiness is too apparent starting from midgame , anyways its better to cut it - one who is being hurt here is Hi difficulty player, but thats good.
I agree that missionaries are too cheap
thats alright, but less hapiness - more curve for difficulty level challenge
yes happiness is too apparent starting from midgame , anyways its better to cut it - one who is being hurt here is Hi difficulty player, but thats good.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Easily added.
What happiness bonuses are there that you think we could cut? Maybe the happy bonus from diamonds; make it is a purely tile increase and strategic resource.
I think we already have fewer normal happiness bonuses than in vanilla.
Any many of the temples and cathedrals have lower or zero happiness bonsues relative to vanilla.
Where do you think the extra happiness is coming from here, relative to vanilla? 2 happy feels right for the offworld goods, and 2 goods per civ seems right.
Slvynn
Duke Vector fon Pixel
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Buildings combines with abundant amounts of resources and offworld resources.
Offworld resources produce huge amount of hapiuness, cause most of them traded , and when traded 2 x +2 hapinnes can be easily 4 x +2 hapiness (in some cases even more), which produce +8 happines
Offworld resources produce huge amount of hapiuness, cause most of them traded , and when traded 2 x +2 hapinnes can be easily 4 x +2 hapiness (in some cases even more), which produce +8 happines
Ahriman
Tyrant
We have fewer happiness buildnigs vanilla - and many of the religious buildnigs don't provide happiness (whereas they all do in vanilla). I *think* we have fewer normal happiness luxuries than in vanilla.
1) Reduce the offworld goods from +2 to +1. Con: messes up balance with other offworld goods, and makes offworld less important.
2) Reduce the number of landing stages from 2 to 1. Con: makes offworld less important, no longer a race to offworld in order to get goods (no chance of being left out with ~12 goods and 9 players).
3) Increase AI's unwillingness to trade goods, so only close allies will trade. Con: potentially makes AI unwilling to trade anything unless very very close allies, which detracts from diplomacy as part of the game.
4) Reduce the number of trade goods generated by a landing stage contract from 3 to 2; so you can only share a trade good with 1 other player. Con: might not solve problem.
I'd be inclined to start with 4).
Our potential solutions here are:
1) Reduce the offworld goods from +2 to +1. Con: messes up balance with other offworld goods, and makes offworld less important.
2) Reduce the number of landing stages from 2 to 1. Con: makes offworld less important, no longer a race to offworld in order to get goods (no chance of being left out with ~12 goods and 9 players).
3) Increase AI's unwillingness to trade goods, so only close allies will trade. Con: potentially makes AI unwilling to trade anything unless very very close allies, which detracts from diplomacy as part of the game.
4) Reduce the number of trade goods generated by a landing stage contract from 3 to 2; so you can only share a trade good with 1 other player. Con: might not solve problem.
I'd be inclined to start with 4).
davidlallen
Deity
How much happiness is contributed by (a) buildings - which ones? (b) my own offworld trade resources, or (c) offworld resources traded by other AI's?
I am not sure #4 will have much effect. Could you look into some of your games with many AI players using chipotle debug mode, and see how many times the AI has even traded these resources? If the number of offworld resources traded is small, then #4 will have no real effect. Even if the number of trades is fairly large, how many of them would be prevented by simply reducing the number of resources from 3 to 2? This allows the AI to trade once, but not twice with the same resource.
I agree spiritual seems weak, and I will add a -25% discount on missionaries for them.
I am not sure what problem we would be solving by giving missionaries mobility I (or just increasing their movement rate to 3 in xml, which is even easier.) Can you clarify?
I can add a scientific trait, which gives +25% research bonus. Is 25% too strong? If we add that which buildings should be cheaper? Would we need to remove any cheap buildings from other traits?
I am not sure #4 will have much effect. Could you look into some of your games with many AI players using chipotle debug mode, and see how many times the AI has even traded these resources? If the number of offworld resources traded is small, then #4 will have no real effect. Even if the number of trades is fairly large, how many of them would be prevented by simply reducing the number of resources from 3 to 2? This allows the AI to trade once, but not twice with the same resource.
I agree spiritual seems weak, and I will add a -25% discount on missionaries for them.
I am not sure what problem we would be solving by giving missionaries mobility I (or just increasing their movement rate to 3 in xml, which is even easier.) Can you clarify?
I can add a scientific trait, which gives +25% research bonus. Is 25% too strong? If we add that which buildings should be cheaper? Would we need to remove any cheap buildings from other traits?
Slvynn
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yes +25% science is TOO strong - Science is very important in this game
My adivice is to hold this or add lets say + beakers to certain buildings (not %, exact amounts)
like library get +3 beakers
or +1 beaker to scientist specialist 5% to research
or maximum 10% , and thats is too much, i'd say even less is better
about offworld resources - AI trade them often,
but what we should care about is not AI. I , personally, cant see problem in AI traiding struff with AI. The problem is Player - and so hight amounts of hapinnes which neglecting some disadvantages of hight difficulty levels.
Our solution can be just making 2 units instead of 3 , and then increasing trade value for offworld resources for AI/Player.
My adivice is to hold this or add lets say + beakers to certain buildings (not %, exact amounts)
like library get +3 beakers
or +1 beaker to scientist specialist 5% to research
or maximum 10% , and thats is too much, i'd say even less is better
about offworld resources - AI trade them often,
but what we should care about is not AI. I , personally, cant see problem in AI traiding struff with AI. The problem is Player - and so hight amounts of hapinnes which neglecting some disadvantages of hight difficulty levels.
Our solution can be just making 2 units instead of 3 , and then increasing trade value for offworld resources for AI/Player.
