1.6 feedback

I think -1 XP is problematic, just remove penalty, conscripts just have no experience - now way ssuch centres will make reverse process in getting ready their conscripts for the war.

I don't quite understand what you're saying here. I don't think that XP would go negative; certanily that wouldn't be the intention. The purpose would just be to reduce the NET benefit given by other buildings. So if you had a barracks and a conscription center then your new units would have 1 xp.

I'd be perfectly happy though to just replace the barracks buliding (+2 xp for land units) with a Conscription center building (+20% military production) Harkonnen UB, in the same building slot, and not need any negative xp effect at all.

Also there is maintenance problems, and perhaps it can have bonus of lowered maintenance like Zulu Ikhanda. Otherwise it will be just to weak UB
Do you mean; having a large army will have maintenance problems? I would suggest that the value of having a large army outstrips their maintenance costs; and if it doesn't, then use the army by starting a war, or just use the bonus to build a similar size army faster, leaving you more hammers left to build other structures.

Sorry, I forget the basic BTS stuff. What does a Zulu Ikhanda do, and how would this help here?

I do not think that a 20% military production bonus could possibly be seen as weak. Particularly in the very early game.
Remember that many Harkonnen leaders are aggressive and/or charismatic, so they need less XP to be powerful units.

Don't you think a leader like Rabban could leverage a large unit bonus like this pretty easily in the early game?

* * *
Another issue; the latest patch removed the Beesting trooper.

I'd still like to argue for 4 tiers of missile trooper types.
We have a rocket trooper at strength 4 and a missile trooper at strength 8, I think we'd still have room for two more (mongoose and beesting, or whatever) at say strength 12 and strength ~17.
There needs to be *something* powerful enough in the very late-game to have a chance of holding off heavy scorpions.
We probably need a redesign in general of the very high end of the tech tree; the game devolves pretty badly past the tier3 units (air combat, low-energy vehicle, assault doctrine, etc.)
 
Harkonnens are not ones who care of their soldiers, it just raw material. Maintianing them, feeding, all things except ammunition and minimals to preserve them being combat-valid - is not Harkonnen.
And while they build alot of units it may be will be good and lore-wise right if those barracks will be something like +15% military prod -10% maintenance cost in this city. (Zulu ikhanda have -15% maintenance and normal xp for barracks, and its good building , not best though). The eefect is same as tribunals and stacking with it.
Increasing military powers and conscript centres - they reduce amount of necessities to maintain needs of civil citizenry - by moving them to state of conscripts - which maintenance paid in form of clothes/food/minimal necessities of a soldier (military maintenance)
it is slight boost, which will be positive to game since Harks are too featureless and bit weak now, esp early game.

to balance it Hark CC might have -1 ... -2 xp (i see what you mean, that is right, i didnt understood it as it was intended)
 
Harkonnens are not ones who care of their soldiers, it just raw material. Maintianing them, feeding, all things except ammunition and minimals to preserve them being combat-valid - is not Harkonnen.

Actually, that's not really true. There is a section in Dune (the book) where Thufir Hawat is explaining to Baron Harkonnen where the Sardaukar come from, and they talk about how the Harkonnen treat their soldiers; basically, they give the soldiers more priviliges, and nicer stuff, in order to try to keep them loyal. They do not try to be minimalist in that regard.

I can try to find the quote in my hardcopy at home at some point (or if anyone else has an electronic copy handy?).

-10% maintenance cost in this city
This reduces city maintenance, not military unit upkeep. The effects are somewhat different, both in gameplay effect and flavor.
City maintenance cost reductions help you maintain large far-flung empires, not large armies.

they reduce amount of necessities to maintain needs of civil citizenry
I can see what you mean here, but any effect like this should probably be reflected in their tribunal building (slave pits) rather than in their barracks building.
If anything, they have to spend more money on their military, its just that they're not spending it on training and equipment to actually make the soldiers better, they're spending it on luxuries in order to make the soldiers loyal.
 
This makes sense, but its hard to convey. This name makes it feel like the Inkvine is the weapon (like lasgun troopers use lasguns, or kindjal soldiers use kindjals, or missile troopers use missiles).

This was just a name I threw out there. I was thinking Inkvine Regiment is just a regiment named after the Inkvine, representing their particular viciousness and cruelty, but I'm not too attached to it. I'd prefer to avoid something like Harkonnen Trooper as we have too many units called Trooper already IMO. It is easy to tell whose UU it is from the pedia and we can explain any flavour names in the pedia too.

Maybe: Howitzer, which is a missile launcher with a +70% instead of +50% city attack?

I like this idea - Harkonnen artillery is thematic as you say.

Also, while on naming units, let's come up with a better name for the Lasgun Trooper. I find the fact that there is both a Lasgun Soldier and Lasgun Trooper pretty repetitive and I always forget which is the most powerful. Having a different name for the strongest Guardsman in the game would be good. Lasguns would be old news by the latest stages of the tech tree anyway.

We probably need a redesign in general of the very high end of the tech tree; the game devolves pretty badly past the tier3 units (air combat, low-energy vehicle, assault doctrine, etc.)

I'm all for this. The late game tech tree pretty much ceases to be interesting when you get to the stage of my last succession game turn.

Some thoughts:

1. We should make Atomics something exciting to race for to get a strategic advantage in the late stages. Doesn't feel like that now - probably because I get bored before I get to Atomics.

2. Move Satellites earlier in the tree or rework the concept - it doesn't make sense that you such advanced technology but can't launch a Satellite.

3. Merge Plasteel and Plasteel Armour - having two techs for such a narrow concept is overkill.

4. Not sure about Cooling Systems as a concept. Maybe it's just the fridge icon. The +1 Extra Moves on Deep Desert seems a bit weird. I get that this could represent better cooling systems for engines, but maybe there is something more Dune-themed.

5. I think more techs representing the mystical/religious side of the Duniverse would be good later on. I think that side of things is under-represented in the late game techs which maybe why it starts to lose flavour. Having a least two broad late game branches would make things more interesting perhaps. Perhaps one for the mystical/religious type stuff, Weirding Way, Golden Path, Kwizatz Haderach, that kind of thing, and another for technological stuff, Atomics, Thinking Machines, etc. So a choice between power through prescience and other magical type powers, or power through conventional technology.

6. Miniaturization might be good late game tech. Hunter seekers and extra transport capacity.

7. The Research Labs tech seems to come when there is not too much of interest left to research. Consider moving it earlier or filling out the late tech tree with some more interesting and thematic techs.

8. Artificial Spice should probably be later game (and have some effect - I know there is a Wonder pending). That would free up room for 2 or 3 techs leading off Genetic Manipulation beneath Industrialism and Cybernetics.

In general, I think a fairly extensive reworking of the late tech tree would be good. We reworked the early to mid techs quite a bit to get what we have now, so a similar process would be good. I guess testing how the late game plays might be trickier, but you can always run autoplays until the lategame and then switch leaders to one who is in an interesting position to play from.
 
Quote:
We probably need a redesign in general of the very high end of the tech tree; the game devolves pretty badly past the tier3 units (air combat, low-energy vehicle, assault doctrine, etc.)
I'm all for this. The late game tech tree pretty much ceases to be interesting when you get to the stage of my last succession game turn.

been thinking this for a long time.
very good feedback.
 
It is easy to tell whose UU it is from the pedia and we can explain any flavour names in the pedia too.

But the main question is; why should Harkonnen have superior guardsmen units? It feels out of theme. Having an officer that whips you might stop you from running away, but it doesn't really make you a better fighter.

let's come up with a better name for the Lasgun Trooper. I find the fact that there is both a Lasgun Soldier and Lasgun Trooper pretty repetitive and I always forget which is the most powerful.

Absolutely. Though I think they'd still be *using* lasguns, no? And their anination should still have a laser beam type weapon.

Some random thoughts:
Obliterator, Eliminator, Beam Gunner, Blast trooper, Heavy Infantry, Lasbeam soldier, Lascannon Fighter, Legionary, Lasray Praetorian, Lasgun Annihilator, Demolisher, Eradicator, Exterminator.

I'm all for this. The late game tech tree pretty much ceases to be interesting when you get to the stage of my last succession game turn.

Precisely. I never really put much design effort into the top end of the gametree, most of what I was doing was just ripping out the weird techs that didn't really fit ("Ampoliros"), and I left the rest basically in place if it made any sense.
So I have no real personal investment in the way things are now, and it sounds like Keldath doesn't mind.

1. We should make Atomics something exciting to race for to get a strategic advantage in the late stages. Doesn't feel like that now - probably because I get bored before I get to Atomics.

Sounds sensible. I was also thinking of trying to tie in the Convention breach somehow. Maybe there is a World Project "Convention Breached" that must be built by someone, before anyone can build a national wonder "House Atomics" that is required in order for your civ to build atomics. The Manhatten Project type effect fits the fluff well.

Another possibilility: have the "Convention Breached" be the National Wonder that allows you to start building Nukes, and have a python-coded diplomcy penalty event with every other civ if you are the first to build the wonder.
Or, just have a python event triggered with a diplomacy penalty the first time that such a weapon is *used*.

The Hunter-Seeker missile doesn't really make sense either; the hunter-seeker is just a probe for killing individuals. It is an espionage weapon, not a combat weapon.

I think that we should have a Death Hand UU cruise missile unit somewhere (maybe much earlier?) for Harkonnen, but otherwise we don't really need cruise missiles. They're not very Duneish.

2. Move Satellites earlier in the tree or rework the concept - it doesn't make sense that you such advanced technology but can't launch a Satellite.
Well, it depends on what the satellites are going to *do*.
Remember that you really can't put a satellite up by yourself; the Guild has a monopoly on that sort of thing, so any attempt by players to launch their own satellites might be met very severely. So its not just technological feasibility of putting up some kind of spy satellite.

The tech could represent weather control satellites, or something in general much more serious (orbital deathray lasers? :).
Maybe the weather control satellite could actually be a building or a zero movement aircraft (geosynchrous orbit, you can relocate it to any of your cities), and it could make terraforming happen faster, improve yields for turbines and solar plants, and prevent sandstorms from bothering you.

3. Merge Plasteel and Plasteel Armour - having two techs for such a narrow concept is overkill.
Agreed.

4. Not sure about Cooling Systems as a concept. Maybe it's just the fridge icon. The +1 Extra Moves on Deep Desert seems a bit weird. I get that this could represent better cooling systems for engines, but maybe there is something more Dune-themed.
This is just a remnant of refrigeration and nuclear power from vanilla I think. It doesn't make any particular sense.

So a choice between power through prescience and other magical type powers, or power through conventional technology.

Lets kill the word Magic. But a technological vs mental/biological/spiritual split seems reasonable.
Adding another high end melee unit on a religious/mental path, vs aircraft, stealth, tanks on a technological path. What other kinds of benefits could a religious/mental path give? Potentially some really huge culture boosters?

6. Miniaturization might be good late game tech. Hunter seekers and extra transport capacity.
I'm not sure about transport capacity and hunter-seeks, but its a decent name for a tech. We could find a use for it.

7. The Research Labs tech seems to come when there is not too much of interest left to research. Consider moving it earlier or filling out the late tech tree with some more interesting and thematic techs.
This is something of a problem in vanilla too. I think filling out the tech tree is the right solution here.

8. Artificial Spice should probably be later game (and have some effect - I know there is a Wonder pending).
I don't think it should come later; any later and it won't have much benefit. It doesn't have an instant impact, it has a benefit only over time. Can you think of any benefits other than the Wonder?
Maybe it somehow lets you get around the Guild Monopoly? So, maybe artifical spice is a requirement for starting to place your own satellites? Just random ideas.
Maybe it allows the Wonder that provides ~8-10 spice resources, but also a building in each city that can provide an extra 1x spice resource? So 5x cities each with the building = 5 extra spice resources through your empire?
 
BTw i am playing Ecaz right now, and strangely they seem quite powerfull, still.
Atm i have strong +2 level adjustment to me (i play Immortal like i am BTS Monarch), and this feeeling is very solid and strong. Quite easy for Immortal i'd say. And yes - those countless resources on large map - negating my hapiness penalties. I think there should be done something. I also think that we need to start making our 9 x 1 9x now.
It will be nice thing to count all income (to single coin) of special Ecaz stuff... We might still reveal that it is bit too hight. Atm we operating with starting building which give +trade route, but, seems, quite early in game it can add +25% % !!! (i am not joking) of additional tech commerce. Combining it with financial and starting tech it seem to be very fast start.
Then come more bonuses.... And you know commerce and techrate is very powerfull on Civ IV platform.
 
I think i know what is the problem , and have idea for solution - that trade bonus come very early, means that all those tile yeld boosting techs will be grabbed much early. Also starting techs and traits... This is fact, that Ecaz are not balanced now, in SP. Its much easier to play Ecaz than to play other civs, for now. It is very noticeable difference.


As solution i propose to implement more URU. Fogwood. Very thematic. (That material which used by Shapers)
And then Fogwood , using some modcomp which was linked by keldath once, will add or commerce boost or 1 trade route to city for Shapers Garden, but later! (Once major tech for Ecaz researched - Offworld Trade, and Fogwood (+2 Happy?) contract is accepted).
It will add challenge, and will make Ecaz balanced - they will be unleash their economical might once they reach Offworld Trade, preserving their flavor and even it will be more flavor, actually.
 
I would be absolutely amazed to see how nation-wide commerce could possibly be increased 25% with just a single +1 trade route. In the early game, trade routes usually only give +1 yield, because the economy sizes are too small. So... +1 commerce per city, or thereabouts. Sounds more like 5% than 25%.

But if its really such a problem, wouldn't it be easier just to move the Ecaz sculptor's garden building that is giving trade-route bonuses to a later tech?

Or change the Sculptor's garden to replace a building other than the Mushtamal? (It doesn't quite make sense to me what a water-supply system has to do with producing sculpture trade-goods).

Or just make the scuptor's garden require offworld trade tech, and just have it as a cheap building, not replacing any other building?

Requiring more unique resources messes more things up; you have to balance it with all the others resources, and worry about how many total resources are out there, and how many are taken, etc. etc.

* * *
Finally, no faction is balanced in singleplayer at the moment, because so many factions still have missing features, or plans for more units. So just because Ecaz is strongest at the moment isn't a sufficient reason to nerf it. Are they stronger than Tleilaxu?
 
Yep i miscalculated, but not too much
If you rex, really rex and build only wind traps (which is veruy powerfull improvement, esp with financial) , you just by improving cities have their csize up to 6, mushtamal is 2nd building, and Youre are financial.
ITs easy to have 60-70 tech rate, from which your traderoutes bring you something like 10-12 gold.
1/6 = 16%
Still... alot
+16% to science - its too much, so early - early means you can make your economy blossom and all tiles will get their max yield more early.

I think it would not be nerf. It will be "just balancing of start" for Ecaz.
Please check this list - there is just resonance (over-synergy) of features, because them player can perform muh better with Ecaz than with any other civ:
1. Financial
2 Water Conservation and windtraps (3 commerce with financial!!) starting tech with boosted techrate to Arrakis Habitation
3. Megarapid REX - with much cities which cover their maintenance costs, but repay it with worked windtraps and traderoutes (+1 - +2 commerce per city) . Multiple cities - and powerfull unrestrained landgrab, with not gimped techrate b/c of such rapid expansion, even more it being covered by 1-2 gold per each city.
All this can be done very early, so to avoid such exploits there is a reason to move some Very-Early-Game stuff from ecaz to bit later techs...
 
ITs easy to have 60-70 tech rate, from which your traderoutes bring you something like 10-12 gold.

This still isn't quite the right metric. Measure total commerce, and then the *increase* in trade route commerce from the extra trade route provided from your buildings.
In other words; look at the lowest value trade route in each city with a sculptor's garden, and subtract that much from the total.

If you have 6 cities with 2 trade routes each for 12 commerce, and a total of 80 commerce of which you are devoting 70 to beakers (with 6 cities you will have maintenance costs, and won't be able to run 100% science), then the contribution of your extra trade routes is 6/80 = 7.5%. Which is pretty minor, and its in compensation for having a weaker military, lacking in decent UUs or other boosters.

I have no particular problem with the idea of moving the trade-route bonus later, I just think that tying it into another landing stage resource is a messy and unnecessary way to do it. And I worry that you're over-stating the early game effect of the extra trade route (though, I haven't tested it myself).
 
please note that Also starting techs are unbalanced, and here we have example of breeding most powerfull starting tech - water conservation - with most synegy holding trait for it (imo) - Financial, - that mean once worker done such improvement will be 7 !! yield tile. That means Arrakis habitation will be sooner - and then it will be 8 yield tile. So adding more early-game bonuses here, in such case, is not best idea imo.


Just moving of Garden is fine for me. Simply, as you see, there are too much powerfull things together. They are too powerfull ,and some should be (i choose smallest one)moved to later game. Such crazy start boost lead to certain disbalance and i doubt that other civs will get such powerfull start-game features
 
here we have example of breeding most powerfull starting tech - water conservation - with most synegy holding trait for it (imo) - Financial

If Ecaz is starting with water conservation, thats a pretty significant issue - especially for the AI who starts with a free worker on higher difficulty levels (with a human player, a worker construction time is not much shorter than the time to research the tech).

I think either no civ should start with water conservation, or every civ should.
Everyone starting with it isn't a bad idea, since its really a no-brainer choice for the first tech every game. This might reduce the penalty to any AIs who don't choose to get it.

Simply, as you see, there are too much powerfull things together

I suspect what you are really observing is the early-game power of the financial trait + windtraps, not really the power of an extra trade route, which is really pretty minor.

Another possibility would be: drop the commerce yield of the windtrap by 1, and add it back at a slightly later tech (or a significantly later one - sand farms?). Windtraps give 1w2c, and then shortly after give 2w2c. They really have incredibly high yields. This would reduce the very high early game benefit of financial significantly, and would slow down the early tech rush a little.
 
I agree with you - both decreasing -1 commerce for windtrap and balancing starting tech packages (giving or removing WC tech) will improve situation , and for now it is real problem which create certain disbalance.

1. To powerfull windtraps resulting it being so precisous tile at game start - with Financial trait it breaks game, because, its easy aquirable improvement which provide +1 bonus commerce, which lead to +23% to +60% science difference (compared to other civs) of tech output at very early stage of game !!!!!!

(8 palace + 3 tiles of windtraps, just 1 city, very early game)
Fin = 8+9 = 17 commerce
Not Fin = 8+6 = 14 commerce
3/14 is 23 %! Thats a huge tech bonus

Later, as you understand, this bonus increase (with second and third city)!

Now compare it with civ which have not Water conservation ....
Lets assume best (rarely possible) case for it - it can use Dew collectors - and have 3 resource tiles for dews in capital bfc (very rare case indeed)
So Start commerce at same stage will be 8+3 = 11, with 2 dews it will be 10 commerce
thats is ~60% of 17!!!!

My solution is adding WC to every single leader, and removing 1 commerce from Windtrap yield. (same as Ahriman proposed)
 
The reason for the high windtrap yield is that in the very early days, the windtrap had only a "fresh water" effect which the AI could not see. The high yield was to ensure that the AI would be interested in building it.

You can easily test the effect of reducing the yield. In file assets/xml/terrain/civ4improvementinfos.xml, find IMPROVEMENT_WINDTRAP. Then under that find:
Code:
	<YieldChanges>
		<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
		<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
		<iYieldChange>2</iYieldChange>
	</YieldChanges>
This is the basic yield of the improvement for food, hammers and commerce. Change the 2 to 1. If you are interested in changing the yield due to other techs, you can see immediately below:
Code:
	<TechYieldChanges>
		<TechYieldChange>
			<PrereqTech>TECH_ARRAKIS_HABITATION</PrereqTech>
			<TechYields>
				<iYield>1</iYield>
				<iYield>0</iYield>
				<iYield>0</iYield>
			</TechYields>
		</TechYieldChange>
		...
It may be clear from the field names what this means. To add another tech which gives +1 of some yield, copy/paste the 8 lines of TechYieldChange and change the tech name. If the right tech name is not obvious, search xml/techs/civ4technologyinfos.xml to find the name.

Regarding Water Conservation as a starting tech, I disagree with your suggestion. If one starting technology is too powerful, a better solution is to redistribute the tech tree, or move part of the tech benefit later. For example, decrease the commerce yield of windtrap to zero and add some back later. The point of the tech tree is that it should force the player to make difficult choices.

What can we do besides just giving WC to everybody or nobody?

Regarding the Sculptor's Garden UB, it is not too hard to change its base building or make it a random building only the Ecaz can build. There are a few files which must be changed. If you agree where exactly it should go, let me know and I can put a tiny patch.
 
But the main question is; why should Harkonnen have superior guardsmen units? It feels out of theme. Having an officer that whips you might stop you from running away, but it doesn't really make you a better fighter.

I thought the theme of Harkonnen was that they had "heavier" heavy units. So they have a super heavy tank. The inkvine regiment is a super heavy trooper, with some encouragement to leave the city and attack, instead of sitting in the city and defending. If you prefer a theme of "heavy tanks plus more artillery", that is fine; we can replace the inkvine regiment with howitzer as suggested. The idea of a deaths head missile with collateral damage is in the issue sheet, but I had not bothered adding it yet because missile techs seem to come so late in the game.

If somebody wants to give a detailed proposal for the upper third of the tech tree, that is fine. The upper part of the tech tree is fairly open in terms of space, so the layout should be easier. I have tried a few times to open up space around mentat training to avoid the crossing lines, but so far I haven't found a way.
 
The reason for the high windtrap yield is that in the very early days, the windtrap had only a "fresh water" effect which the AI could not see. The high yield was to ensure that the AI would be interested in building it.

You can easily test the effect of reducing the yield. In file assets/xml/terrain/civ4improvementinfos.xml, find IMPROVEMENT_WINDTRAP. Then under that find:
Code:
	<YieldChanges>
		<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
		<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
		<iYieldChange>2</iYieldChange>
	</YieldChanges>
This is the basic yield of the improvement for food, hammers and commerce. Change the 2 to 1. If you are interested in changing the yield due to other techs, you can see immediately below:
Code:
	<TechYieldChanges>
		<TechYieldChange>
			<PrereqTech>TECH_ARRAKIS_HABITATION</PrereqTech>
			<TechYields>
				<iYield>1</iYield>
				<iYield>0</iYield>
				<iYield>0</iYield>
			</TechYields>
		</TechYieldChange>
		...
It may be clear from the field names what this means. To add another tech which gives +1 of some yield, copy/paste the 8 lines of TechYieldChange and change the tech name. If the right tech name is not obvious, search xml/techs/civ4technologyinfos.xml to find the name.

Regarding Water Conservation as a starting tech, I disagree with your suggestion. If one starting technology is too powerful, a better solution is to redistribute the tech tree, or move part of the tech benefit later. For example, decrease the commerce yield of windtrap to zero and add some back later. The point of the tech tree is that it should force the player to make difficult choices.

What can we do besides just giving WC to everybody or nobody?

Regarding the Sculptor's Garden UB, it is not too hard to change its base building or make it a random building only the Ecaz can build. There are a few files which must be changed. If you agree where exactly it should go, let me know and I can put a tiny patch.

I think it might replace greenhouse, with same effects, Garden-Greenhouse seems quite close, giving + 1 trade route

As solution for WC is ... i dont know, it is too powerfull tech right now. It is prequisite for powerfull techs as well. Windtraps are very powerfull stuffs.
Perhaps we should remove all commerce (to 0) as you suggest.
Wouldn't that be problem for ai of prioritising improvements and building mines instead of windtraps as it once did?
As minimum - civs that have early benefits should not recieve WC. Thats what i called era balance - if one starts too fast - no matter what do 2nd, 1st will be just by many paces ahead and will win. So , perhaps considering our balance tables, which i should start one day, WC should be given to "no-early-benefit" leaders

Here we talkign about +60% tech rate difference , and its insane. It even more critical since more tile improving techs will come faster, and gap will increase.
I think that 0 commerce for Windtrap is fine though, making somewhat dew collectors more favorable having -1 hammer +1 commerce.
 
As solution for WC is ... i dont know, it is too powerfull tech right now. It is prequisite for powerfull techs as well. Windtraps are very powerfull stuffs. Perhaps we should remove all commerce (to 0) as you suggest. Wouldn't that be problem for ai of prioritising improvements and building mines instead of windtraps as it once did?

I don't know. It is easy for you to try it out and see.
 
I thought the theme of Harkonnen was that they had "heavier" heavy units.

I think this theme comes from the Westwood games more than books. I don't mind them having the heavy stuff, but it would be good to add some ideas like the Traitor concept to make them seem like cunning villains rather than just brainless thugs.

If you prefer a theme of "heavy tanks plus more artillery", that is fine; we can replace the inkvine regiment with howitzer as suggested.

Why not have both? I think 3 or more UUs per civ is not unreasonable.
 
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