Yes of course a city with 2 seafood would be worth it but anything less isn't going to be. That being the case, I'll settle a city in a fashion that'll prevent Cathy from getting the seafood. She'll get the incense of course but there won't be any food and almost only desert there.
Dr kossin #26
- Thread starter kossin
- Start date
Yeah of course. At this point I'm waiting to see whats to the west and east on the coast and wondering when Catherine will DoW. Though I guess the Dutch could be a target for her as well. I assume they are cautious with each other. That means I want to know where all the seafood is. Since the whip would be your early production yeah?
CivilizedTiger
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2009
- Messages
- 523
@Riot
@kossin
I do know about fogbusting, and I try to do that. However, I play marathon, so units take longer to train, and before I can fogbust all of the map, it very often happens that barb spears are already there. The most frustrating game, in this regard, was played with Suryavarman, I was alone with Ragnar on an island, I chariot rushed him, then sent all my chariots to fogbust. I managed to do that for all of my proposed areas, except for one. When my last fogbuster got to its post, it was greeted by a spearman.
I never manage to fogbust it in time. I either need axemen, or, if I don't have metal, I must settle with archery, and that almost always sucks. I can't rely on any one single archer to guard a worker roading a flat tile, for instance. So archers are too expansive, both because they deflect my scientists from more useful techs, and because archers are notoriously defensive. It's not fun to have your archers sit in cities waiting for the barbs to destroy your tile improvements before they attack you.
@kossin
Thank you for the tip about the camera!
Sorry about deflecting posts towards my questions!
@kossin
I do know about fogbusting, and I try to do that. However, I play marathon, so units take longer to train, and before I can fogbust all of the map, it very often happens that barb spears are already there. The most frustrating game, in this regard, was played with Suryavarman, I was alone with Ragnar on an island, I chariot rushed him, then sent all my chariots to fogbust. I managed to do that for all of my proposed areas, except for one. When my last fogbuster got to its post, it was greeted by a spearman.
I never manage to fogbust it in time. I either need axemen, or, if I don't have metal, I must settle with archery, and that almost always sucks. I can't rely on any one single archer to guard a worker roading a flat tile, for instance. So archers are too expansive, both because they deflect my scientists from more useful techs, and because archers are notoriously defensive. It's not fun to have your archers sit in cities waiting for the barbs to destroy your tile improvements before they attack you.
@kossin
Thank you for the tip about the camera!
Sorry about deflecting posts towards my questions!
@Riot
@kossin
I do know about fogbusting, and I try to do that. However, I play marathon, so units take longer to train, and before I can fogbust all of the map, it very often happens that barb spears are already there. The most frustrating game, in this regard, was played with Suryavarman, I was alone with Ragnar on an island, I chariot rushed him, then sent all my chariots to fogbust. I managed to do that for all of my proposed areas, except for one. When my last fogbuster got to its post, it was greeted by a spearman.
I know about fogbusting, I try to do it, but, at least at marathon, I never manage to do it in time. I either need axemen, or, if I don't have metal, I must settle with archery, and that almost always sucks. I can't rely on any one single archer to guard a worker roading a flat tile, for instance. So archers are too expansive, both because they deflect my scientists from more useful techs, and because archers are notoriously defensive. It's not fun to have your archers sit in cities waiting for the barbs to destroy your tile improvements before they attack you.
@kossin
Thank you for the tip about the camera!
Sorry about deflecting posts towards my questions!
Post the archers on forest or hill tiles outside your culture and watch barb suicide on them instead of parking them in cities.
Round 2
This was quite a successful round by my estimates.
I'll start off with my explorers in 1800BC.
First, the gift city area. It has a single non-coast fish resource. The dog will explore the northern part of the western area while the warrior will be a lookout for Cathy settlers and barb fogbusting.
I'll settle a city there off the coast to block access to the fish. It will be a rather weak city for a long time, not help Cathy that much (well it does give her Incense) and desperately give me some diplo points.
I've just launched my third dog although he will be delayed by 1 turn. He'll look at the southern part of the western area.
Finally, the older Dog is still looking at the eastern area which isn't that food devoid anymore.
By this time, my first two cities, especially Cahokia, have been focusing on spamming settlers. Since I'm lacking for workers, the goal is to get the settlers in place before Catherine/Willem and just have them sit by until I can't delay them anymore.
I have to hurry as Cathy's latest city claimed the rest of the flood plains/marble area.
Settling Cahokia 1S did, after all, waste 1 seafood.
As it turns out, the western area doesn't look that large so sending settlers east turned out to be a good move.
Writing was completed in 1520BC. I post this screenshot as you can see 2 workers in position to complete a network to Catherine. Timing is important, every little bit helps.
Back east, my settlers were getting into position.
So far, I've been spamming Settlers and only have 3 workers to improve my land. My 3rd city completed a library with the help of 2 chops and is running 2 scientists at a -1 food deficit.
After a short time, Cathy shows up as expected with her crew.
My trade chip was once again Aesthetics. Unfortunately, Willem was the first to Alphabet, which he got after Aesthetics =\. Going to Alphabet directly would have been better but it's kinda hard to tell on the moment.
I had to wait some more turns until Qin got his hands on it to start trading.
More's the luck, Cathy had research in Alphabet and wouldn't part with anything more than IW for it.
Resource trades were plenty assuring growth room for my cities despite not even having hooked up the gems yet! (nor religion of HR)
I finally managed to grab the barb city next to Cahokia, and more importantly got a 10xp Dog in the process to unlock the Heroic Epic.
Willem got his hands on Taoism at 300BC but didn't share his knowledge, being the most advanced AI. As a result, I went Meditation-Drama to bulb is as well. Drama was a good trade chip netting me Mathematics and Currency. I didn't go for CoL as it required more techs.
Once I had a blocking settler in place for the western area (I'll show you in a moment), I planted a city for Catherine, desperate for Diplomacy points.
Philosophy was traded to Catherine and Qin to get some of the final early techs I was lacking.
Catherine finally sent her settlers west but the land was just perfect for an easy block.
I finished Code of Laws which brought me to 1AD and to the end of this REX session.
Here's some of the prime real estate Cathy found before crossing the desert.
A look at techs. I'm not doing too bad but they do have a good lead on me still. It's nothing to worry about though as with the amount of cities I've gotten, research will pick up in time.
Diplomacy has improved despite Buddhism not spreading.
A final look at the western area. I can put 2 more cities down and also grab the barb city with my units starting next turn.
I'm still pretty low on workers but more are being produced to help out.
Finally, a non-tilted, non-resized, view of the known land so far.
Willem recently asked me to stop trading with Hatty and I accepted. She's far away, disliked and small while Willem is the best techer and quite large.
Catherine was a bit slower than I expected but her Capital isn't stellar and the land around it either. She also had quite a bit of gold in her coffers a few times and no Wonders to show for it. My guess is she got greedy and went wonder hunting but failed. She still has quite a bit of cities, even though some of them look pretty bad.
Next round will be economic development and hopefully try not too fall behind... I'm on the edge as it is right now.
This was quite a successful round by my estimates.
I'll start off with my explorers in 1800BC.
First, the gift city area. It has a single non-coast fish resource. The dog will explore the northern part of the western area while the warrior will be a lookout for Cathy settlers and barb fogbusting.
Spoiler :
I'll settle a city there off the coast to block access to the fish. It will be a rather weak city for a long time, not help Cathy that much (well it does give her Incense) and desperately give me some diplo points.
I've just launched my third dog although he will be delayed by 1 turn. He'll look at the southern part of the western area.
Spoiler :
Finally, the older Dog is still looking at the eastern area which isn't that food devoid anymore.
Spoiler :
By this time, my first two cities, especially Cahokia, have been focusing on spamming settlers. Since I'm lacking for workers, the goal is to get the settlers in place before Catherine/Willem and just have them sit by until I can't delay them anymore.
I have to hurry as Cathy's latest city claimed the rest of the flood plains/marble area.
Spoiler :
Settling Cahokia 1S did, after all, waste 1 seafood.
Spoiler :
As it turns out, the western area doesn't look that large so sending settlers east turned out to be a good move.
Spoiler :
Writing was completed in 1520BC. I post this screenshot as you can see 2 workers in position to complete a network to Catherine. Timing is important, every little bit helps.
Spoiler :
Back east, my settlers were getting into position.
Spoiler :
So far, I've been spamming Settlers and only have 3 workers to improve my land. My 3rd city completed a library with the help of 2 chops and is running 2 scientists at a -1 food deficit.
After a short time, Cathy shows up as expected with her crew.
Spoiler :
My trade chip was once again Aesthetics. Unfortunately, Willem was the first to Alphabet, which he got after Aesthetics =\. Going to Alphabet directly would have been better but it's kinda hard to tell on the moment.
Spoiler :
I had to wait some more turns until Qin got his hands on it to start trading.
Spoiler :
More's the luck, Cathy had research in Alphabet and wouldn't part with anything more than IW for it.
Spoiler :
Resource trades were plenty assuring growth room for my cities despite not even having hooked up the gems yet! (nor religion of HR)
Spoiler :
I finally managed to grab the barb city next to Cahokia, and more importantly got a 10xp Dog in the process to unlock the Heroic Epic.
Spoiler :
Willem got his hands on Taoism at 300BC but didn't share his knowledge, being the most advanced AI. As a result, I went Meditation-Drama to bulb is as well. Drama was a good trade chip netting me Mathematics and Currency. I didn't go for CoL as it required more techs.
Spoiler :
Once I had a blocking settler in place for the western area (I'll show you in a moment), I planted a city for Catherine, desperate for Diplomacy points.
Spoiler :
Philosophy was traded to Catherine and Qin to get some of the final early techs I was lacking.
Spoiler :
Catherine finally sent her settlers west but the land was just perfect for an easy block.
Spoiler :
I finished Code of Laws which brought me to 1AD and to the end of this REX session.
Here's some of the prime real estate Cathy found before crossing the desert.
Spoiler :
A look at techs. I'm not doing too bad but they do have a good lead on me still. It's nothing to worry about though as with the amount of cities I've gotten, research will pick up in time.
Spoiler :
Diplomacy has improved despite Buddhism not spreading.
Spoiler :
A final look at the western area. I can put 2 more cities down and also grab the barb city with my units starting next turn.
Spoiler :
I'm still pretty low on workers but more are being produced to help out.
Spoiler :
Finally, a non-tilted, non-resized, view of the known land so far.
Spoiler :
Willem recently asked me to stop trading with Hatty and I accepted. She's far away, disliked and small while Willem is the best techer and quite large.
Catherine was a bit slower than I expected but her Capital isn't stellar and the land around it either. She also had quite a bit of gold in her coffers a few times and no Wonders to show for it. My guess is she got greedy and went wonder hunting but failed. She still has quite a bit of cities, even though some of them look pretty bad.
Next round will be economic development and hopefully try not too fall behind... I'm on the edge as it is right now.
Udey1
Prince
way to get so many peaceful cities on Deity
.
.
Stewie0416
Who Cares?
This is should be manageable. If you can get Cathy to Friendly I don't think she'll declare on you w/o being bribed right? (Correct me if i'm wrong btw). I would just have to say that watch out for WvO. He has some NICE cottage territory and could run away with tech...he always does in my lowly price games anyways.....
goodolarchie
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2009
- Messages
- 282
Yeah 12 green cities is pretty impressive, even if 2 are barbs. Liberalism and military dominance shouldn't be too tough at this point.
CivilizedTiger
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2009
- Messages
- 523
Aren't you afraid about the eastern cities?
They're bordering the cities of two creative leaders, and you might have a harder time defending both of them, should it be required, considering that they increase your borders with other nations. Aaaanddd... both of your neighbours are backstabbers.
Well... anyway, I like how things are looking. And I like how you're not discouraged about slower techs. I've actually quit games because I didn't have civil service in 500CE, for instance, but... your situation looks very good there.
They're bordering the cities of two creative leaders, and you might have a harder time defending both of them, should it be required, considering that they increase your borders with other nations. Aaaanddd... both of your neighbours are backstabbers.
Well... anyway, I like how things are looking. And I like how you're not discouraged about slower techs. I've actually quit games because I didn't have civil service in 500CE, for instance, but... your situation looks very good there.
Aren't you afraid about the eastern cities?
They're bordering the cities of two creative leaders, and you might have a harder time defending both of them, should it be required, considering that they increase your borders with other nations. Aaaanddd... both of your neighbours are backstabbers.
Well... anyway, I like how things are looking. And I like how you're not discouraged about slower techs. I've actually quit games because I didn't have civil service in 500CE, for instance, but... your situation looks very good there.
Williem is a decently low % backstabber. Cathy also borders far more tiles with Willem than kossin.
Cultural borders vs any leader, creative or not, is not a problem (you may lose a tile or two, but you should never lose your inner ring) until after things like Music(cathedrals), Nationalism (Hermitage) generally, where you can start seeing some real pressure.
So long as your city isn't reduced to producing Culture, and it can still sink it's hammers into other things, s'fine.
Round 3
I started off by capturing that barb city. I lost a few units in the process but gained a good amount of gold.
In the following turns, Catherine decided to convert to Christianity, her founded religion.
This was bad luck as I got Buddhism really soon after =\ I avoided it for the moment to stay on Cathy's good side. Willem was finally a good boy and spread the religion throughout the round.
Here's the tech situation by 150AD. I'm not pulling enough beakers to stay competitive right now as my hammers were spent on more workers.
Qin eventually built the AP in Buddhism and I voted for Willem to get him to Pleased, enabling begging!
As further AIs were getting their hands on Civil Service, I was starting to get desperate as the Liberalism race was in jeopardy.
I did some civic overhaul following that, followed by a conversion to Buddhism. (yes Cathy is in Christianity but HR will compensate for it a bit to stay at Pleased).
Pacifism would give a boost in
production seeing as I didn't have a GP farm per say.
I took this trade with Qin, mostly looking for extra gold (it was pretty rare unfortunately).
As 300AD turned around, the first overseas AI showed up. That's a fast Optics beeline!
Lacking a GP farm, I had to rely on Pacifism+Caste+Pacifism+Starvation
The only problem though... Willem finished Education already. Second, I don't have a second GS handy by... actually he isn't due for quite a few turns still =\
Willem is notorious in my experience for beelining Liberalism. It unlocks his favorite civic and he didn't get the Shwedagon Paya so it's almost certain he's not taking a detour like Mansa in that other game.
I revolted into building mode as I've been lacking the whip for too long.
Seeing the race is about lost, the required techs aren't needed anymore.
I stopped the round here to consider my position.
First, here's a look at AC's island that is shared with the yet-to-meet Gilgamesh.
Techs. Not too sure where to head for now, I need to think some more about it.
Diplo is good.
Finally, a non-resized view of my land.
I screwed up GS production and it's going to cost me the Liberalism race. I have 1 sitting by at the moment to bulb part of Education and hopefully send Cathy to war next turn.
Guess you can't have everything going your way
I started off by capturing that barb city. I lost a few units in the process but gained a good amount of gold.
Spoiler :
In the following turns, Catherine decided to convert to Christianity, her founded religion.
Spoiler :
This was bad luck as I got Buddhism really soon after =\ I avoided it for the moment to stay on Cathy's good side. Willem was finally a good boy and spread the religion throughout the round.
Spoiler :
Here's the tech situation by 150AD. I'm not pulling enough beakers to stay competitive right now as my hammers were spent on more workers.
Spoiler :
Qin eventually built the AP in Buddhism and I voted for Willem to get him to Pleased, enabling begging!
Spoiler :
As further AIs were getting their hands on Civil Service, I was starting to get desperate as the Liberalism race was in jeopardy.
Spoiler :
I did some civic overhaul following that, followed by a conversion to Buddhism. (yes Cathy is in Christianity but HR will compensate for it a bit to stay at Pleased).
Spoiler :
Pacifism would give a boost in
production seeing as I didn't have a GP farm per say.I took this trade with Qin, mostly looking for extra gold (it was pretty rare unfortunately).
Spoiler :
As 300AD turned around, the first overseas AI showed up. That's a fast Optics beeline!
Spoiler :
Lacking a GP farm, I had to rely on Pacifism+Caste+Pacifism+Starvation
Spoiler :
The only problem though... Willem finished Education already. Second, I don't have a second GS handy by... actually he isn't due for quite a few turns still =\
Spoiler :
Willem is notorious in my experience for beelining Liberalism. It unlocks his favorite civic and he didn't get the Shwedagon Paya so it's almost certain he's not taking a detour like Mansa in that other game.
I revolted into building mode as I've been lacking the whip for too long.
Spoiler :
Seeing the race is about lost, the required techs aren't needed anymore.
Spoiler :
I stopped the round here to consider my position.
First, here's a look at AC's island that is shared with the yet-to-meet Gilgamesh.
Spoiler :
Techs. Not too sure where to head for now, I need to think some more about it.
Spoiler :
Diplo is good.
Spoiler :
Finally, a non-resized view of my land.
Spoiler :
I screwed up GS production and it's going to cost me the Liberalism race. I have 1 sitting by at the moment to bulb part of Education and hopefully send Cathy to war next turn.
Guess you can't have everything going your way
Prediction: AC + Gilgamesh + go wonder-whoring. Where's Qin? Past Hatty?
Hard to tell what the AI tech path is right now since everyone's stuck in middle of the pack.
I think you're going to have to worry about at least 1 AI here going cultural...if it's Cathy, you're going to have to do something about that sooner rather than later I think.
Yeah, going to bet that Cathy is edging towards a cultural VC. Willem is just teching, Gilgamesh/AC wonder whoring, Qin/Willem probably also considering a war against Hatty and vassalizing her.
Hard to tell what the AI tech path is right now since everyone's stuck in middle of the pack.
I think you're going to have to worry about at least 1 AI here going cultural...if it's Cathy, you're going to have to do something about that sooner rather than later I think.
Yeah, going to bet that Cathy is edging towards a cultural VC. Willem is just teching, Gilgamesh/AC wonder whoring, Qin/Willem probably also considering a war against Hatty and vassalizing her.
Have to post a teaser screen from my shadow. From 125 BC:
If anyone else is shadowing I'd appreciate if you could start posting your games at the end once Kossin is done and put up some saves so we can get a post-game comparison discussion going. Even if you got barb'ed out as I did last DR.
Spoiler :
If anyone else is shadowing I'd appreciate if you could start posting your games at the end once Kossin is done and put up some saves so we can get a post-game comparison discussion going. Even if you got barb'ed out as I did last DR.
You have to have enough whip to get some catapults and elephants on willem no? He doesn't build castles right? Even though a few cities won't help you tech-wise, I'd really like to slow willem down. Several games ago I hit a deity Willem at 600 AD with cats the turn he got liberalism, but my game he didn't have elephants and he didn't pick up engineering first so I was able to take him out completely. He didn't even build units until the war started.
You're doing ok so far, I guess.. but founding those far away cities relatively early with little commerce (and not finding time to put up courthouses either) has put you a bit behind on tech. Will be interested to see how you pull out. Not sure why there's no library+courthouse+massive GPP in Snaketown by 520AD, though?
Tried a different approach blocking off "my part" of the continent from Cathy (by settling the blocker city by the coast and keeping it. It was left producing workers and boats off the coppermine). Left me time to settle my part of the land (Room for 9-10 cities) and keeping maintenance down. Even found time to build Glib+NE and Parth with marble from Cathy around 300-400BC, so no shortage on GS.
Ofcourse I kinda lucked out on a) getting Judaism from Cathy (so no need to gift a city) b) Cathy went for Nat, c) WvO went for Astro (but didn't bother to take to the seas, leaving me with the bonus), clearly heading for Lib in your game, d) founding taoism (which may have caused b and c, at least c ) and e) everyone ganging up on poor Hatty (including me) for a lot of happy neighbours.
Ofcourse I probably still will find a way to not win, since this is where my game usually falls apart on Deity... in a big way, so I'll be interested to see how you do!
Not posting screens or anything since they contain spoilers compared to where you are at at the same date.
Tried a different approach blocking off "my part" of the continent from Cathy (by settling the blocker city by the coast and keeping it. It was left producing workers and boats off the coppermine). Left me time to settle my part of the land (Room for 9-10 cities) and keeping maintenance down. Even found time to build Glib+NE and Parth with marble from Cathy around 300-400BC, so no shortage on GS.
Ofcourse I kinda lucked out on a) getting Judaism from Cathy (so no need to gift a city) b) Cathy went for Nat, c) WvO went for Astro (but didn't bother to take to the seas, leaving me with the bonus), clearly heading for Lib in your game, d) founding taoism (which may have caused b and c, at least c ) and e) everyone ganging up on poor Hatty (including me) for a lot of happy neighbours.
Ofcourse I probably still will find a way to not win, since this is where my game usually falls apart on Deity... in a big way, so I'll be interested to see how you do!
Not posting screens or anything since they contain spoilers compared to where you are at at the same date.
Qin is behind Hatty yes. I'm mesmerized she hasn't been DoW'd on so far...
Since the goal is domination/conquest, AIs going culture is a good news
Perhaps it could work, but his being so close to Renaissance units, it's too late now imo.
I was in Caste for a while to try and spawn some GPs so that slowed down infrastructure a lot.
Cannons would probably be a good way to proceed here, I'll just have to see if I can get them soon enough.
I don't know what stops cannons actually
I can say however that Machine Guns don't
Starting the report on the round. It was quite a successful one
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