I can't believe it's this hard! *rants*

Vicawoo wow now there's a question... Lemme think that for a while :D The guide talking about maybe trying to build the stonehenge was one of the very first things I read about on how to start. I dont recall right now where was it, I googled that guide up from somewhere. I just remember clearly been said there that you can go for it if you want to cause it is so easy to get.

Lymond umh yeah didnt I just say on the very thing you quoted, last line of it, that I'd try the worker first? Oh and ditching archery early on too? Ok, will try that as well :)
 
Building SH isn't always a mistake, but it is not a universally useful opening. First, never do it when you're creative...there just isn't enough benefit. Also never bother unless you'll build at least four monuments to secure your borders. After that, two of these three conditions must be true for me to consider SH : I started with Mysticism or popped it from a hut, I have lots of forests to chop, I have stone in the capital BFC.
 
Vicawoo wow now there's a question... Lemme think that for a while :D The guide talking about maybe trying to build the stonehenge was one of the very first things I read about on how to start. I dont recall right now where was it, I googled that guide up from somewhere. I just remember clearly been said there that you can go for it if you want to cause it is so easy to get.

Lymond umh yeah didnt I just say on the very thing you quoted, last line of it, that I'd try the worker first? Oh and ditching archery early on too? Ok, will try that as well :)

ha...i don't think it can be emphasized enough. What has not been mentioned is the justification for this and there is some articles on the math behind the "worker first" approach. Basically, although you don't grow those first few turns -ultimately you will get special resources improved quicker after the worker is finished and thus grow quicker and produce quicker in the long run. Worker is without a doubt the most important unit in the game. That's why many tout India's UU (fast worker) as the best UU in the game. (Caveat: As mentioned, there may be situations when a work boat is built first which is usually pretty obvious)

I believe I recall that article that mentioned Stonehenge - it may even be Sistuils(sp?) beginner guide. I think the point he was trying to make is that you may still be able to build it later as AIs generally don't prioritize Stonehenge, although they will eventually. However, I think his point was that there are more important things to get out first before even trying for it. I may go for Stonehenge if I have stone hooked up soon, good production/forests, and my UB is a monument. However, not before getting out more important things like settlers/escorts. Stonehenge is a luxury in my book not a necessity. Also, you have to gauge the surroundings. Is an AI real close or someone imperialistic like Justinian/Joao/Kathy,i.e., they will settle in your face quick? Are nuts like Monty/Shaka/Nappy a few tiles away and must be put down quickly by your axe rush? Things like usually means Stonehenge is very much an afterthought.
 
I'll point out the guy who advocated opening with religion said he could beat prince, but was at a loss above that level. That's where I was when I used religious openings too. And Noble can easily be defeated with a religious opening, so it's certainly not the reason you're having trouble. Worker first is generally good advice; the only times to deviate are for seafood and when the worker will sit idle when completed (won't have finished researching your first worker tech yet).

Honestly, if you do these two things, you'll beat Noble:
1 - Never work an unimproved tile. (aside from the very early game) To accomplish this, you'll need more workers than you're used to building (in the case of almost every new player who comes here with stories like yours)
2 - Don't build any wonders. That's right...none. Trust me, you'll be shocked at how well you can do without them. I am as much of a wonderspammer as the next guy (and probably more than most) but knowing which wonders to build in which situations is important. Until you learn to identify those situations, the :hammers: you are investing in wonders are probably mostly wasted.
 
I wouldnt knock a religious start. If you can abuse a religion and build the shrine and spread it to 20+cities its a nice way to pay for your civ early on. I had a emperor game where i spread 2 religions early on. One captured from an AI capital and another I started with. I was more than able to pull off a win.

In terms of barbs being an issue learn how to spawn bust using warriors/archers or axemen on hills/jungle/forest.

From the sounds of it you just need to play out a few games to improve your game play.

Posting a save would allow a better critique. Do post the 4000bc save to so others can compare or shadow the game. Two pages of advice all based on games we have not seen!! :lol:

Do read through some of the follow throughs online. TMIT does lots of videos online on how to play at higher levels. I forget where the links are. This forum is a wealth of knowledge. Read through and learn. load other players saves. You may want to play a few of the noble club games and compare your save to others.
 
Here's a save from 1315AD (Sota2), didnt go "so" bad actually - until that bloody Justinian attacked me when I was already fighting with Alexander to the South, I lost both of my big armies South and North, plus the cities I took from Alexander & the one up NE edge, and my economy was in rather horrible state as well. Oh and Salt Lake City was a dreadful food mistake, donno what I was thinking! (irrigation maybe?) :D I did not start this with religion either, I think.. I found that big land map and many nations with constant ongoing wars & diplomatic bickering way too exhausting and started a new game.

Sadly I havent even done saves from most of my games, the other save is from my latest one, but it is a really bad start and yeah I hadnt made enough workers yet at all (normally I make more, honest ;) ), I wanted to put couple base soldiers in place first, and Joao jumped there in between my cities when I was securing land to the west, so I hurried to block him off (otherways would have never created that city called Great Wall, horrible spot!) and hoped for flipping him with culture pressure. It is actually one move away from double war declaration and next turn I loose Great Wall. Also this is a stonehenge start, with creative leader, dont laugh ;) I wanted to try double land hogging skillz, lol.

The game before that was a nice start one (atleast to my eye) - until Shaka rammed me with 30 troops and cleared the start of my best early army so far -.- But no saves from that sadly, it would have been the best one to get hints on, one of those "..what just happened, what did I do wrong??" games.
 

Attachments

Building SH isn't always a mistake, but it is not a universally useful opening.

Building SH first:Civilization IV::Breaking bricks with your head:Martial Arts

Yes, you can smash bricks with your head, but you don't tell people who are just beginning that they can. It's just counterproductive.
 
Huh? What kind of guides have you been reading? :crazyeye: Going for early religion is very inadvisable and one of the biggest rookie mistakes...

Hehe, here is the GameSpy guide, I remembered that the author made some poor choices starting, and he sure did LOL.

If you want to go for an early religion, pick a civ that starts with Mysticism so you don't have to bother researching it.
I think ideally you would pick a civ that starts with Mysticism and either Agriculture/Fishing so you could still go worker for your first (or second) build.

EDIT- oh man now the author is researching Meditation AFTER already researching Polytheism, nooooo. :cringe:
 
Lymond I actually read through 16 pages of Sis's guide yesterday/today, and several of the articles on that second link :) (Tips for people who hate Civ4 was extremely useful, pointed out loud and clear all the bad tactics I was trying to bring with me from old civs, hehe), and am also scrambling through Sulla's walkthrough, on section 3 now. I wish I'd post in this forum earlier, instead of my stubborn "I will figure it out myself through trial and error" -attitude.
 
ha...i thought you might like that "hate CIV4" article for old school players. It's kinda confusing at first because he writes it in a sarcastic way and there's a point or two I don't fully agree with, but the ultimate point is a good one. CIV4 is a different animal.

I know you've already done it, but I wouldn't bother with posting old saves. Just fire up a new game and run a shadow game as I mentioned. We'll play along and give advice. I think it's the best way to learn and learn quickly.
 
Here's a save from 1315AD (Sota2), didnt go "so" bad actually - until that bloody Justinian attacked me when I was already fighting with Alexander to the South, I lost both of my big armies South and North, plus the cities I took from Alexander & the one up NE edge, and my economy was in rather horrible state as well. Oh and Salt Lake City was a dreadful food mistake, donno what I was thinking! (irrigation maybe?) :D I did not start this with religion either, I think.. I found that big land map and many nations with constant ongoing wars & diplomatic bickering way too exhausting and started a new game.

Sadly I havent even done saves from most of my games, the other save is from my latest one, but it is a really bad start and yeah I hadnt made enough workers yet at all (normally I make more, honest ;) ), I wanted to put couple base soldiers in place first, and Joao jumped there in between my cities when I was securing land to the west, so I hurried to block him off (otherways would have never created that city called Great Wall, horrible spot!) and hoped for flipping him with culture pressure. It is actually one move away from double war declaration and next turn I loose Great Wall. Also this is a stonehenge start, with creative leader, dont laugh ;) I wanted to try double land hogging skillz, lol.

The game before that was a nice start one (atleast to my eye) - until Shaka rammed me with 30 troops and cleared the start of my best early army so far -.- But no saves from that sadly, it would have been the best one to get hints on, one of those "..what just happened, what did I do wrong??" games.
Took a quick look at the second save. Your primary problem is with workers/settlers. You should have 8-10 cities at least by that point in a game, and about a dozen workers. Even with five cities, you should have at least seven workers. If a city is working unimproved tiles, you need more workers, and they should be at the top of the build queue somewhere.

Will take a more detailed look when I get back in later, but I am on my way out the door.
 
Lymond ah I need to get back to more gaming later, it's 3am here hehe, I'm fixing late night erm early morning supper and then I'll have to sleep.

I read that article for old players out of curiosity, I definitely dont hate the fourth :D I love it to the point of bad addiction again, on the contrary I never liked the third much. Number 2 was my great love, oh and Alpha Centauri too, I still play that one ^^ om nom!

Mariogreymist 8-10 cities by that time o___O ok yeah I'm clearly screwing up my growth, I thought I was doing that part just fine, even too fast.. I need to give this some thought... And I'm very puzzled how do I handle money with that speed, I can barely afford the cities I have there now with religion boost and too low science.. Well it has to wait now, before I get the urge to star another game of this late! Thanks a lot for your help guys ^^
 
Below monarch and if your on a crowd map warrior rush. You can wait till they finish building the worker steal it and take the capital.
 
Try an OCC. One of the things I find annoying/weird about this game is I seem to do better on an OCC than a regular game. I'm still on Noble as well.
 
I'm glad you're enjoying this great hobby of ours Onysa. :)

... And I'm very puzzled how do I handle money with that speed, I can barely afford the cities I have there now with religion boost and too low science..

Try to get at least one good cottage city: a good candidate will have plenty of grasslands. A food resource is always a plus too.

I'm a Civ 4 noob, but I know some people build libraries not for the +25% :science:, but to open up the 2 scientist specialist slots. Specialists are cool because they don't depend on your slider:
Scientists will always give you + 3 :science:, which means you can still get technologies while your slider is at 0% (usually full economic crash).

Try an OCC. One of the things I find annoying/weird about this game is I seem to do better on an OCC than a regular game. I'm still on Noble as well.

Interesting observation nash5, I've never tried a OCC, but it does seem like it would be easier to manage things with just the one city.
 
Interesting observation nash5, I've never tried a OCC, but it does seem like it would be easier to manage things with just the one city.

Yeah, I guess the main thing is you don't have to think as much. I can't get any of these BUG mods to work so it's such a pain in the backside to manage all the diplomacy and things of that nature, along with managing every city. OCC takes care of at least half of the struggle I have. I can still win pretty easily at Noble if I take my time and plan everything out, but it's a game, I just want to have a couple hours of fun, and OCC does that for me.
 
Yeah the number of units you need to build in Civ 4 is one of hte biggest changes to previous versions. If you come all the way from Civ 1, you will have an instinctive aversion to too many units. unit support was EXPENSIVE back then. You would have a maximim of 2 units per city pretty much until very late in the game. Now with a lot of free units, and non free units costing one gold a turn they are really really cheap.

If you want to see one way to play the early game go watch TMIT's REXing extravaganza as Suleman. The thread is here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=352249 this video diary is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SoMQ9mtvYE&feature=PlayList&p=0CF210671DFB4C23&index=0&playnext=1

Upto about 1AD he builds pretty much nothing appart from warriors, settlers and workers. He does have quite a lot of gold specials to keep his economy afloat, but oyu can do something similar iwth a cottage city particularly if you are financial.

As an old school civ veteran myself I would suggest not playing random leaders, but go darius of the perisans. You have two solid financial traits in financial and org, which helps your economy out hugely. Plus immortals, the unique unit (replaces chariot) are great if you find yourself close to someone at the start and need to take them out early.

As every leader needs a slightly different strategy, so I would not play random when you start a level. Only play random when you are more comfortable with the difficulty level.

Ignore the starting wonders unless they are still in play late. I do normally make a play for the oracle, but don't worry about it too much.

The persians start with hunting and agriculture so something like Animal Husbandry, mining, bronze working to start with. Then if oyu have horses and want to rush someone get the wheel and pump immortals.

Librarys and marketplaces are much worse than previous versions of civ as the bonus is only 25% not 50%. This is balanced by the fact that they allow you to run specialists as well. So early game DON'T BUILD THEM unless you are going to run specialists in that city. That means that in the early game you have a max of 2 libraries in your 6 city empire, which again feels really weird for an old school civ player. Your capital can have a library, and if you have another city wiht good food specials then it can be a good place to build one too, to have 2 scientists.

Scientist specialists are great for firstly building an academy in your capital and secondly for using the "bulb" power to research the right techs to help you win the race to liberalism (which is pretty key at high levels). Note also that the techs now have really widely varying amounts of lightbulbs to learn, so be careful when taking a free tech either from libralism or the oracle. Nationhood is normally a good one from liberalism, for the oracle I normally get metal casing. Other people suggest asthetics if you want to go for the literature wonders. All these techs are good for trading with the AIs.

Diplomacy is the other key thing, it is quite different to previous versions. Religions are normally key to diplomacy. Be very careful when selecting state religion, that is why founding a religion is not so useful on high levels as you NEED to be the same religion as someone if oyu want peaceful relations. So you have to let them found it then spread it to you. Sometimes you can found one and spread it to them, but on higher levels that normally takes more resources than you can spare.

Civ 4 has got a lot of changes to the way things work compared ot the previous versions, and you have to unlearn some things. The tile improvements are a lot better than they used to be and there are lot more uses for population (whipping for production or using specialists). The bonus you get from a special tile with the correct improvement is huge, and you need to get those working for you fast. So you prioritise the techs that allow you to work the tiles. Calendar is more important than I thought it was too, I should get that earlier I think. The extra happy and health from calendar resources can give oyu a huge boost.

Anyway I think that is enough for one post :D. I guess I should try to write a guide for people who have some false tactics from previous CIVs (not that I played CIV3 much). I played huge amounts of Civ 1 though.
 
ha...i thought you might like that "hate CIV4" article for old school players. It's kinda confusing at first because he writes it in a sarcastic way and there's a point or two I don't fully agree with, but the ultimate point is a good one. CIV4 is a different animal.

I know you've already done it, but I wouldn't bother with posting old saves. Just fire up a new game and run a shadow game as I mentioned. We'll play along and give advice. I think it's the best way to learn and learn quickly.

Heh, I wish I'd found that article 3-4 years ago! I started playing Civ 4 after Warlords came out, after playing since Civ 1. After trying a few games, I got annoyed with the different dynamics and went back to Civ 3 where I stayed for YEARS, playing mods. I just decided to give Civ 4 another try a couple months ago, got Complete, and LOVE IT! I'm on my second game at Prince level now, and doing well so far.

One suggestion for you: Work your way through the Noble's Club games starting with #1. The sample games directory at the top of this forum has links to games played at different levels, or you can access the Noble's Club Bullpen Mk. II (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=315035). These games are great learning tools, since you can play a game while looking at how others approached the same strategic situation and civilization. I played the first three on Noble, won them all (after never previously beating Noble, mind you), switched to Prince for the fourth and won that one, and am now working on the fifth on Prince.
 
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