Dr kossin #33
- Thread starter kossin
- Start date
Round 2
This one is actually a 2-parter but I've decided to call them separate rounds to make up for one of the missed days. It covers all the way to 1505AD anyway.
Once the gold tile was improved, my economy was a lot better. I switched to it immediately at the expense of hammers and growth.
I went Mysticism>Fishing>Sailing but looking back I really should have queued up Pottery after Mysticism.
I sent my second settler far east to try and claim the flood plains area but came up short 1 turn to Sitting Bull. I moved him back a little bit to claim the second flood plains (rice+copper+fp's) area and told him to sit tight for a few turns.
Once my third settler was ready, Bizmarck showed up with dual-settlers... land is going fast in this one, I'm glad to be Imperialistic.
This altered my dotmap slightly and I ended up only placing 3 cities east. That wasn't too bad however as I had a large peninsula to myself where I could fit 5 cities easily, all with good food.
Then I got a lucky break. I spotted Bizmarck sending units to the Barbarian city just north and came to this scene:
I wasn't doing too bad in workers as Karakorum was a hammer monster and I had a few chops going on as well, but it was nice nonetheless.
I started sweating a bit when Bizmarck went into WHEOORN and started massing units next to me. This forced me to make a detour to Masonry to whip walls in the closest city. Karakorum built Axes and Scotty kept an eye on his SoD next to me. When he decided to move it... luck struck again. Sitting Bull was his target. They'd stay at war for a long long time too.
Isabella spread Buddhism and I converted making easy friends on the landmass.
Sitting Bull was the first to Alphabet and then he went for Aesthetics... I followed up with my HBR idea from round 1 and it worked perfectly.
The Axes I built were put to good use as well, capturing this nice barbarian city.
This game I pretty much REXed before 1AD, getting 10 cities by 1AD. I added an eleventh a bit later as well.
I mostly ran scientists as the land isn't suited for cottages, with very few rivers but decent food. My first Scientist would make an Academy in Karakorum.
This was a very fortunate trade I thought. A Deity AI lacking Alphabet this late is quite something.
In 50AD there was more good news, Isabella had built the AP. 4 free hammers everywhere! This also prompted me to go for Monotheism to get the benefits from Organized Religion.
Another trade with backward Bizmarck.
Which allowed to save a turn of Anarchy by doing a double-switch.
On t130, Sitting Bull culture bombed one of his cities, stealing my rice in the process. A few turns later I got another Scientist whom I used for a Golden Age. I was gaining back ground on the rice but it still took 20 more turns to secure it.
This was another opportunity to save Anarchy time, going Bureaucracy and Caste System. I maxed 2 cities on scientists to generate two more GS.
Another trade with Bizmarck...
The first GS is born on the last turn of the Golden Age... he part bulbs Education.
With Stone in hand, this Wonder was a no-brainer, giving out a hefty bpt bonus.
Once I felt Liberalism was in my grasp, I started trading, hoping to take Astronomy as a freebie to go meet the others and profit from Intercontinental Trade Routes.
However as I was about to finish Liberalism Isabella got Astronomy... so I took Nationalism instead.
A few more trades...
I met the first two overseas AIs, dog and master.
Backward Bizmarck...
And here's Brennus to round up the AIs. Even more backward than Bizmarck!
A couple of trades with Cyrus to close out this round...
Being the Mongols, I am thinking mounted warfare wouldn't be so bad. It's pretty easy to get 3-promos out of the gate from every city.
Who to target however?
One last note: I won Circumnavigation for once.
This one is actually a 2-parter but I've decided to call them separate rounds to make up for one of the missed days. It covers all the way to 1505AD anyway.
Once the gold tile was improved, my economy was a lot better. I switched to it immediately at the expense of hammers and growth.
Spoiler :
I went Mysticism>Fishing>Sailing but looking back I really should have queued up Pottery after Mysticism.
I sent my second settler far east to try and claim the flood plains area but came up short 1 turn to Sitting Bull. I moved him back a little bit to claim the second flood plains (rice+copper+fp's) area and told him to sit tight for a few turns.
Once my third settler was ready, Bizmarck showed up with dual-settlers... land is going fast in this one, I'm glad to be Imperialistic.
Spoiler :
This altered my dotmap slightly and I ended up only placing 3 cities east. That wasn't too bad however as I had a large peninsula to myself where I could fit 5 cities easily, all with good food.
Then I got a lucky break. I spotted Bizmarck sending units to the Barbarian city just north and came to this scene:
Spoiler :
I wasn't doing too bad in workers as Karakorum was a hammer monster and I had a few chops going on as well, but it was nice nonetheless.
I started sweating a bit when Bizmarck went into WHEOORN and started massing units next to me. This forced me to make a detour to Masonry to whip walls in the closest city. Karakorum built Axes and Scotty kept an eye on his SoD next to me. When he decided to move it... luck struck again. Sitting Bull was his target. They'd stay at war for a long long time too.
Isabella spread Buddhism and I converted making easy friends on the landmass.
Sitting Bull was the first to Alphabet and then he went for Aesthetics... I followed up with my HBR idea from round 1 and it worked perfectly.
Spoiler :
The Axes I built were put to good use as well, capturing this nice barbarian city.
Spoiler :
This game I pretty much REXed before 1AD, getting 10 cities by 1AD. I added an eleventh a bit later as well.
I mostly ran scientists as the land isn't suited for cottages, with very few rivers but decent food. My first Scientist would make an Academy in Karakorum.
Spoiler :
This was a very fortunate trade I thought. A Deity AI lacking Alphabet this late is quite something.
Spoiler :
In 50AD there was more good news, Isabella had built the AP. 4 free hammers everywhere! This also prompted me to go for Monotheism to get the benefits from Organized Religion.
Spoiler :
Another trade with backward Bizmarck.
Spoiler :
Which allowed to save a turn of Anarchy by doing a double-switch.
Spoiler :
On t130, Sitting Bull culture bombed one of his cities, stealing my rice in the process. A few turns later I got another Scientist whom I used for a Golden Age. I was gaining back ground on the rice but it still took 20 more turns to secure it.
Spoiler :
This was another opportunity to save Anarchy time, going Bureaucracy and Caste System. I maxed 2 cities on scientists to generate two more GS.
Spoiler :
Another trade with Bizmarck...
Spoiler :
The first GS is born on the last turn of the Golden Age... he part bulbs Education.
Spoiler :
With Stone in hand, this Wonder was a no-brainer, giving out a hefty bpt bonus.
Spoiler :
Once I felt Liberalism was in my grasp, I started trading, hoping to take Astronomy as a freebie to go meet the others and profit from Intercontinental Trade Routes.
Spoiler :
However as I was about to finish Liberalism Isabella got Astronomy... so I took Nationalism instead.
Spoiler :
A few more trades...
Spoiler :
I met the first two overseas AIs, dog and master.
Spoiler :
Backward Bizmarck...
Spoiler :
And here's Brennus to round up the AIs. Even more backward than Bizmarck!
Spoiler :
A couple of trades with Cyrus to close out this round...
Spoiler :
Being the Mongols, I am thinking mounted warfare wouldn't be so bad. It's pretty easy to get 3-promos out of the gate from every city.
Who to target however?
One last note: I won Circumnavigation for once.
drlake
Emperor
I notice that you manage some pretty favorable technology trades, such as HBR for Alphabet. Do you put a couple of turns of research into a lot of different techs to make these more likely? I can't recall seeing the AI trade a more expensive tech for a cheaper one in any of my games unless I had already partially researched it.
If that is what is going on, how do you decide what to partially research? Do you do a few partials to set up a bunch of trades on one turn, or just figure out what the next potential trade is and start researching a tech when you are going to try to trade for it?
If that is what is going on, how do you decide what to partially research? Do you do a few partials to set up a bunch of trades on one turn, or just figure out what the next potential trade is and start researching a tech when you are going to try to trade for it?
Yes.
You can see in the HBR<->Alphabet trade that I've actually researched close to half of Alphabet.
I partial research what the AI is willing to trade and that I want.
The emphasis is thus on economic techs.
Also if you can get techs that another AI lacks, you can then trade that new tech to another AI, getting more out of your research.
When I get to a later stage in the game and I have a monopoly on a tech, I will part-research as many techs as I can to get a multiple trade going on the same turn. Once you lose the tech monopoly, the AI is free to trade it so you might as well get the most out of it.
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 27,005
Although it appears you are waiting to at least Miliitary Tradition to start a war, I'm surprised you haven't begged for Archery yet to at least enable Keshiks. I usually always get it for free.
Begging counts against WFYABTA limit I believe. While I have Isabella at Friendly to keep trading, I'd like to keep trading with the other AIs and getting say Biology in a trade is way better than Archery
Round 3
This trade helped make my economy quite stronger. I've started bulldozing cottages in favor of farms once I revolted to Representation.
I'd been farming a GP to generate a Golden Age, which was accomplished shortly after.
I also added 2 cities on an island which I share with Cyrus.
On the last turn of my Golden Age I managed to trade for Communism.
Trade Missions are really good at this time in the game.
Trades with Cyrus and Saladin... gotta love that I'm getting double trades out of the 'same guy'.
Meanwhile, I've researched Rifling and I've been cranking out level 4 Cavalry.
Sitting Bull got Rifling about the same turn as I did.
Isabella will get Rifling in a few turns.
Which leaves Bizmarck and his Grenadiers... meh, let's ram into him.
First, we send Bizmarck on an errand.
This gets his SoD into SB's land and frees up his cities, as shown by Scotty.
All of 1 turn later, here is the overview and my war plan. NOT RESIZED
Here's the same turn after I've declared war:
As you can see he lost half his kingdom without even being able to move anything. His SoD is in Native America in the open, Sitting Bull has a stack moving into Bizmarck's land and I'm harassing his units in the open with Cavalry. The war is a success and he will be wiped out in a bit.
I keep a good techrate during the course of the war (my research at 0% is around 500bpt) which allows me to keep up in tech.
I capture 2 more cities from Bismarck and Sitting Bull gets the last 2 turns before I could manage to get over there.
I stopped the next turn, my research at 100% is greater than 1500bpt and at 0% it's over 700bpt. I'm probably going to grab Bombers to clear out the continent (Isabella's culture is crushing 2 of my captured cities which are heavily garrisoned). I might be able to win Diplo from there or I'll just go thump on Cyrus/Brennus with Modern units or nukes.
Techs
Relations
F1 screen. Half of my research is coming from specialists.
Tile improvements
I might switch to Bureaucracy since Vassalage isn't too helpful right now or I could avoid the Anarchy and stick with it until Bombers.
Isabella might get Tanks but with the large border we share, I should have little problem stacking enough Bombers/Carriers with Fighters to make them useless.
This trade helped make my economy quite stronger. I've started bulldozing cottages in favor of farms once I revolted to Representation.
Spoiler :
I'd been farming a GP to generate a Golden Age, which was accomplished shortly after.
Spoiler :
I also added 2 cities on an island which I share with Cyrus.
Spoiler :
On the last turn of my Golden Age I managed to trade for Communism.
Spoiler :
Trade Missions are really good at this time in the game.
Spoiler :
Trades with Cyrus and Saladin... gotta love that I'm getting double trades out of the 'same guy'.
Spoiler :
Meanwhile, I've researched Rifling and I've been cranking out level 4 Cavalry.
Sitting Bull got Rifling about the same turn as I did.
Isabella will get Rifling in a few turns.
Which leaves Bizmarck and his Grenadiers... meh, let's ram into him.
First, we send Bizmarck on an errand.
Spoiler :
This gets his SoD into SB's land and frees up his cities, as shown by Scotty.
Spoiler :
All of 1 turn later, here is the overview and my war plan. NOT RESIZED
Spoiler :
Here's the same turn after I've declared war:
Spoiler :
As you can see he lost half his kingdom without even being able to move anything. His SoD is in Native America in the open, Sitting Bull has a stack moving into Bizmarck's land and I'm harassing his units in the open with Cavalry. The war is a success and he will be wiped out in a bit.
I keep a good techrate during the course of the war (my research at 0% is around 500bpt) which allows me to keep up in tech.
Spoiler :
I capture 2 more cities from Bismarck and Sitting Bull gets the last 2 turns before I could manage to get over there.
Spoiler :
I stopped the next turn, my research at 100% is greater than 1500bpt and at 0% it's over 700bpt. I'm probably going to grab Bombers to clear out the continent (Isabella's culture is crushing 2 of my captured cities which are heavily garrisoned). I might be able to win Diplo from there or I'll just go thump on Cyrus/Brennus with Modern units or nukes.
Techs
Spoiler :
Relations
Spoiler :
F1 screen. Half of my research is coming from specialists.
Spoiler :
Tile improvements
Spoiler :
I might switch to Bureaucracy since Vassalage isn't too helpful right now or I could avoid the Anarchy and stick with it until Bombers.
Isabella might get Tanks but with the large border we share, I should have little problem stacking enough Bombers/Carriers with Fighters to make them useless.
That certainly would make it a lot harder... the RNG strikes again. And for once I'm on the good side
drlake
Emperor
OK, next question:
You're getting 700bpt out of specialists? And with the research slider at 100% research, another 700ish out of commerce with no cottages? That would be from a mixture of what, riverside tiles, coastal tiles, special resources, watermills, windmills, and the like? Damn...
OK, I need to SERIOUSLY RETHINK my use of terrain improvements. Cottages up until Rep, but Rep + Caste = build farms? Do you just stay in Rep and Caste, or do you rebuild the cottages later?
You're getting 700bpt out of specialists? And with the research slider at 100% research, another 700ish out of commerce with no cottages? That would be from a mixture of what, riverside tiles, coastal tiles, special resources, watermills, windmills, and the like? Damn...
OK, I need to SERIOUSLY RETHINK my use of terrain improvements. Cottages up until Rep, but Rep + Caste = build farms? Do you just stay in Rep and Caste, or do you rebuild the cottages later?
Trade routes as well.
I have Electricity now as well so windmills and watermills contribute extra commerce.
Keep in mind that this setup has more raw production so buildings are produced faster and I have more infrastructure overall as a result.
Rush-buying would also work with cottages however.
I never had that many cottages this game, just early on when my citizens had no better tiles and to get some early commerce going.
Post-emancipation it takes 40 turns for a cottage to grow into a Town, which is too long so I'll stick with Farms, Workshops, Windmills, Watermills and Mines. As long as you're not under Free Speech, it's very clear that workshop>Town... especially if you use Caste System.
There is no single-way to play the game, cottage spam isn't always the answer.
I have Electricity now as well so windmills and watermills contribute extra commerce.
Keep in mind that this setup has more raw production so buildings are produced faster and I have more infrastructure overall as a result.
Rush-buying would also work with cottages however.
I never had that many cottages this game, just early on when my citizens had no better tiles and to get some early commerce going.
Post-emancipation it takes 40 turns for a cottage to grow into a Town, which is too long so I'll stick with Farms, Workshops, Windmills, Watermills and Mines. As long as you're not under Free Speech, it's very clear that workshop>Town... especially if you use Caste System.
There is no single-way to play the game, cottage spam isn't always the answer.
drlake - In my game I expanded more early, but completely tanked my economy. This means I've been constrained by happy cap for a long time and so I have a lot of potential cottages that haven't been worked at turn 100+ and not having Iron Working yet. It takes a long time to get that cottage into a town. But I do have 20 some cottages which will be towns shortly. For me it will be a hard choice at this point, because I have to commit to caste now vs going cottages aiming for Universal Suffrage + Free Speech.
If I have a double pig + fish site then early on in the game I know its caste since I can drive my research off that one city running 7 scientists. Elsewhere you cottage for early commerce, but put more farms and workshops.
This game there was no obvious caste city for me and I grabbed the flood plains so I'm all cottages, but because of the development delay half my land won't be at towns by the time I switch to US at democracy let alone when I've got Free Speech.
And don't forget emancipation if you half ass the game at deity and everyone switches to emancipation before you get close to Rep you have a problem.
If I have a double pig + fish site then early on in the game I know its caste since I can drive my research off that one city running 7 scientists. Elsewhere you cottage for early commerce, but put more farms and workshops.
This game there was no obvious caste city for me and I grabbed the flood plains so I'm all cottages, but because of the development delay half my land won't be at towns by the time I switch to US at democracy let alone when I've got Free Speech.
And don't forget emancipation if you half ass the game at deity and everyone switches to emancipation before you get close to Rep you have a problem.
Artichoker
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2007
- Messages
- 1,711
Yes, it's the 11-XP cavalry trick you mentioned a few days ago...I was going to try that in one my of my games with Vassalage, but you were first to get there!
Hannibal can do something similar (because of Charismatic), but there is also another trick that can be added to that combo. If you make Numidian Cavalry, they begin with the same XP as Cuirassiers or Cavalry but also get a free Flanking I promotion. It costs some gold to upgrade them, but you can save hammers from the cheaper unit cost.
I myself would be very reluctant to stay in Vassalage with this game plan, but it can still work as long as you're sure you can deliver the knockout punch.
Like Grashopa said, it was a tough choice between cottages and workshops. Since you didn't go with cottages, it's a very difficult transition into Free Speech.
Shurdus
Am I Napoleon?
How does the 11 XP cavalry trick work? You would need to build barracks and a stable - or Ger - and run vassalage + theocracy... What am I missing?
Also, Kossin, you mention being culture bombed and then you counted the turns it takes for you to reclaim your rice. How id you count the amount of turns it will take? Did you count until you had the rice back or were you able to tell up front how long it would take? If so, how do you count the turns?
Also, Kossin, you mention being culture bombed and then you counted the turns it takes for you to reclaim your rice. How id you count the amount of turns it will take? Did you count until you had the rice back or were you able to tell up front how long it would take? If so, how do you count the turns?
Ger (4xp) + Barracks (3xp) + Vassalage + Theo = 11xp
drlake
Emperor
If no Ger, add a settled Great General. Add GGs to replace Vassalage and Theo as desired.
Interesting about Hannibal. Despite playing a SG with him, I keep forgetting Numidians get a free upgrade. I remember Dirk pulling a HA>Cuirassier upgrade in the Victoria Doctorate... while costly the rewards were indeed great as you get them so early this way if you can time a GM correctly.
I started so late on cottages due to pushing Pottery too far out which pretty much made the decision for me to go workshops.
I went back to Bureaucracy after all for a while...
No, I just counted the turns it took to gain it back. You'd need access to the console to see how much culture actually is in the tile and the per turn rate to determine that. Since I have no clue how to access it, I don't know!
^^Exact
The only problem is you'll need so many GGs to get them from every city, whereas the Mongols don't need to do it. I'd much rather settle all my GGs in the same city (say a coastal pump, HE city, IW city...) or make a bunch of Military Academies to get 1 unit/turn later on.
I played sloppily and went to war much later than I could have (I didn't whip out my army). It would have been much harder without that 3rd promotion but it was still a bit bloody.
shyuhe
Deity
Nicely done. I think diplo will lead to a faster victory, assuming you build it or one of the guys abroad does. I hope Berlin doesn't culture flip as it's got some nice wonders
Also - I know the early golden age helps for civic switches and for the production/commerce bonus, but is it really worth running one pre-pacifism since it's unlikely you'll get 3 scientists out of one golden age?
Also - I know the early golden age helps for civic switches and for the production/commerce bonus, but is it really worth running one pre-pacifism since it's unlikely you'll get 3 scientists out of one golden age?
Nicely done. I think diplo will lead to a faster victory, assuming you build it or one of the guys abroad does. I hope Berlin doesn't culture flip as it's got some nice wonders
Also - I know the early golden age helps for civic switches and for the production/commerce bonus, but is it really worth running one pre-pacifism since it's unlikely you'll get 3 scientists out of one golden age?
It would have been better to get Philosophy and then spring the Golden Age I agree. I'm not sure it would have been faster alas to get Liberalism so I didn't wait. Being a little nervous for the late date (wasn't certain when the other continent would get there) I guess I semi-panicked.
