SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

Thank you, Kossin

I would settle in place without wondering too much.
The capital looks very solid as it is. It could be a great commerce city.
Plus : there's a rule Kossin know that I don't know that states there is a minimum number of specials for a capital... I believe it is more than 2 corns, am I right ?
This means there could be a resource NW (lost if we settle on the hill) or SW (lost as well). Resources might as well be elsewhere... that's right ! Moot point.


That said, we can live with going forth and back. So if you prefer seeing what's behind the hill before settling, fine with me. I wouldn't gamble but I trust your skills.

^^ Spawn algorithm means nothing when it's gone through a mapmaker unfortunately.

~~~

Ran a few test games to see some early wonders timing. All dates are BC unless specified. I'll add a few more later.

Stonehenge
1925 1750 2200 1975 1725 1800 2050 2225 1775 1550

Great Wall
1675 1325 1575 2415 2300 1775 1200 1825 1600 1325

The Oracle
1150 1625 925 1800 260 925 470 455 1150 850

GLH
800 50 1000 725 205AD 410 340AD 525 290

ToA
215 925 825 1100 1025 900 205AD 525 290

Pyramids
95 245 355AD 1625 1350 35 260 140 130AD

Judaism
1600 2525 2300 2700 1100 2375 2650 2625 1500 2550


~~~ Turns-by-turns on Epic

140 turns @ 25 years (4000BC-500BC)
90 turns @ 15 years (500BC-850AD)
40 turns @ 10 years (850AD-1250AD)
90 turns @ 5 years (1250AD-1700AD)
70 turns @ 2 years (1700AD-1840AD)
100 turns @ 1 year (1840AD-1940AD)
220 turns @ 0.5 years (1940AD-2050AD)

Good work kossin.

As far as barbs go, seems like animals turn into warriors/archers pretty much at 2650BC. Not quite sure when they start entering our territory yet.

space or PH: Settle in place or on Plains Hill

Advantages of plains hill:
-worker takes 18 turns rather than 23 (gain 5 turns)
-first settler out ~3 turns earlier
-warriors out faster

Disadvantages of plains hill:
-lose 1 turn moving
-gain tundra hill (possibly more) = crappier capital long-term
-might lose strategic resource in BFC
-perhaps fewer forests
-no guarantee for extra hills
-lose 1 turn while moving from 1 corn to the other to improve (SIP burns a forest that allows the move)
-lose 8 commerce compared to in place (no 3 yield with 1 commerce in first culture ring)

I'll play a few openings with the test game to get a feel for it.

Click to expand...

Losing 1 turn at this level probably doesn't matter as much. The uncertainty of hills, strategic resources and commerce are more of a problem. Depends how much "cooking" has been done on this map, I guess?

As for your map-gazing skills. Looks pretty good. Better than what I did when I made the test (was more concerned with the actual BFC of start-location). Once a tiny bit of scouting is done, it'll be a lot easier to make accurate testmaps.

If there's indeed tundra to the south-east, I'm really extremely for settling in place. If it wasn't for the forest under the settler, an "easy" fix would be to move to PH, and back if start is better. Putting a forest there makes it more evil.

Test game:

Had a lot of fun with the testgame and sort of a dingding Ghandi opening (only I got out a settler before Oracle since it's a lot slower on Emperor).
It's just very frustrating how much time the AI use to get some basic trade-for-techs researched (preventing trades for maths into the ADs for Philo bulb f.eks).

Good job guys!
With my iPhone,briefly:

To kossin:
no tundra appears in the 5x5 of the BFC under the normal generator IIRC.

About opening:
sip, worker seem good
one settler then oracle not bad

^^
Tundra can appear in 5x5. I checked some random Fractal maps and they do happen. Moreover this map has been altered, so I'm expecting traps.

There was also a lot of complaints in the last SGOTM iIrc as having the "right" move gave victory almost on t1. I'm guessing the plains hill is there as a trap. It could be another plains hill with a lot of shadow but it looks too dark brownish to me to not be tundra. As I said, I should be able to give a better assessment when I can check the save.

Got the start file. Will look at the save and post a detailed plan tonight. I am not sure a fixed 15 turns of play is appropriate, especially for the 1st and 2nd set. Generally I think it's good to stop before starting a new tech. Personally I prefer a longer set to the completion of BW since there is not much to be discussed during this period and we can have better view for the discussion of city placement with copper location.

I still prefer to settle on the PH. Add a few more points to Kossin's list.

1. Could get more resources in dark area although the loss of a resource in the tile under the warrior is higher.
2. Not really a weaker capital. At least 14 good tiles to work and we won't have that many citizens until very late. This game is going to be finished before 1500AD.
3. 4 turns earlier of 1st worker is very important since this leads to the butterfly effect. Rexing is the key in emperor and below.
4. For a food abundant capital, whipping is the best way to rexing. Gandhi is the best leader for SE economy. Delhi is a good GP farm, especially if we can find Stone and grab the mids.
5. Last, played 2 DS's BOTM map and found that he usually gave very strong hint about where to settle.

Agree about playing the set until BW is done.

We will likely lose on a strategic resource by settling on PH but the 4 turns gained on worker and eventually research should pay off.

I agree that it will be best suited for GP farming. Even if there's tundra over there [it doesn't seem so likely anymore], like you said we will probably not even have to work those tiles anyway as the game will be over.

The "coast" is a lake after all, which reduces the odds of a south pole start quite a bit I think. The tile SW of the warrior has fresh water.

I'll run some more Emp/Epic games to get more Wonders dates.

>>>Changing my vote to settle on PH.

PH: kossin, Duckweed

SIP: dingding, BornInCantaloup, Bugg123 (since it doesn't appear like tundra change your vote?)

Udey1? (pm'ing)

I've updated posts #1 & 2, please tell me if I've missed something important.

One thing we haven't decided: Roster.

Duckweed has asked to go first since he'll be more busy in May.
Udey1 is in exams so I was thinking of pushing him later on the roster.
dingding is busy until the 24th which is tomorrow.
Others have not voiced preferences/busy.

Here is a tentative roster as a result:

1. Duckweed
2. Bugg123
3. dingding
4. kossin
5. BornInCantaloup
6. Udey1

Tell me if it works for you or if you'd rather move somewhere else on the roster, it's not set in stone!

That schedule looks fine to me, Sorry I haven't been in too much lately.

I am waiting until I get the permission to move settler to the PH.

@ Udey1

We are calling a vote and this is very important move.

SIP. I never played emperor in this game but reading up on what you guys are saying I agree for heavy wonders. Late dates? great!

More forests for chops SIP
There is something under the warrior, horse/copper something with hammers.
2 hills in BFC?????
we are hammer short.
Looks like a GP farm to me.

So since this is only emperor, are we considering going religion?

Also If marble is close ToA would be excellent for early GPs

At the aeroport. Briefly SIP un change.

1) Hammer lack. Need hills to build wonders.
2) SIP saves 1 turn on the movement of the settler and 2 turns on that of the workers. Not bad compared to settle in the PH.

@Duckweed:

OK to play till BW.

You can start with BW first and change to Agri at the middle, trying to finish the Agri and the worker at the same turn. Thus we'll probably get discount on the agri coz we'll probably meet some other civ during the early few turns.

Settling place :
Ducweed's point about the number of usable tiles is very valid.
The only real problem about settling on the PH could be the lack of production but we can always find a good prod site for the 2nd or 3rd city.

--> Settling on the PH is ok with me.
It will speed up the first few cities/workers. And... what's behind the PH is intriguing.


Early techs, wonders and religion :
I think that 1 settler --> Oracle is for Immortal+ difficulty. It is very reasonable on Emperor to produce 2 settlers then Oracle. Even 3-4 settlers could be doable but... with less chances of success.

I'd rather research worker techs before going to Priesthood :
1- Agri --> BW -->
2a- TW --> Pottery
2b- AH
3 --> up to Priesthood
[Insert Fishing if needed]

This should give us time for 2-3 settlers. Sidenote : with fast workers, it is easier to synchronise chops for the Oracle.

@ The Oracle slingshot :
Kossin and DingDing : why do you seem to favour CoL so much ? Whithout knowledge of the map, I can only see it superior to Monarchy because it is on the way to Civil Service. Is that the reason ? (Or SPI temples ?)
CoL requires Writing, which may delay either worker techs or RExing. Monarchy is less useful on the tech tree but I consider it FAR more powerful on its own than CoL. I insist on the "on its own" part, because Alphabet can be discovered very late on Emperor difficulty.

@ Early religion :
I wouldn't think about it before securing all of the above (worker techs + Oracle). Monotheism may be doable, though. The difficulty is that we may not have commerce specials, which would make up for the time invested in the religion.

EDIT :

dingding said:

You can start with BW first and change to Agri at the middle, trying to finish the Agri and the worker at the same turn. Thus we'll probably get discount on the agri coz we'll probably meet some other civ during the early few turns.

Click to expand...

Neat ! Never thought about something like that !

@ The roster :
No preference I'll just be away a few days at the end of May.

dingding said:

You can start with BW first and change to Agri at the middle, trying to finish the Agri and the worker at the same turn. Thus we'll probably get discount on the agri coz we'll probably meet some other civ during the early few turns.

Click to expand...

Good suggestion.

dingding said:

2) SIP saves 1 turn on the movement of the settler and 2 turns on that of the workers. Not bad compared to settle in the PH.

Click to expand...

Gandhi's UU is fast worker, so the SW corn can be improved immediately.

BornInCantaloup said:

Settling place :
Ducweed's point about the number of usable tiles is very valid.
The only real problem about settling on the PH could be the lack of production but we can always find a good prod site for the 2nd or 3rd city.

--> Settling on the PH is ok with me.
It will speed up the first few cities/workers. And... what's behind the PH is intriguing.

Click to expand...

Is this a vote to PH? Good, 3 votes and that makes PH the final decision.

Some more points of the advantage of PH.

1. More explanation of the butterfly effect of the earlier 1st worker and extra 1 hammer from PH. City can start to grow earlier and that will compensate the loss of 10g by 1 turn delay of settling. As what kossin tested, we can have 2nd settler out 4 turns earlier. That means we could beat AI to a critical site, and/or we can work on a lovely Gold/Gem 4 turns earlier, and/or getting stone/marble hooked 4 turns earlier, which means we can grab SH or Oracle 4 turns earlier, which also leads to earlier 1st GP, and more etc.

2. Regarding hammers for wonders. Forests are the major hammer resource for the early wonders. We save 1 forest by settling on PH. Moreover, by micro of the worker and settler build, we can get >50 hammer overflow a time.

3. Regarding less workable tiles. As I mentioned before, this game is going to finish before the city can grow really large. Moreover, we are playing a Phi leader, representation scientist is better than any tiles at that time.

Detailed plan

Tech BW->Agri->BW

Turn 0 -- Settler SE to PH, Warrior to NE
Turn 1 -- Settle and Delhi builds Worker. Warrior ???
Turn 18 -- Worker 1 irrigates SW corn, Delhi starts 2 warriors.
Turn 26 -- Worker 1 goes to irrigate NW corn
Turn 36 -- BW in, 2 corns improved. worker1 is available for next move. End of set.

1st and 2nd citizens on Corns, 3rd citizen on grassland forest.

I looked it up again with camera rotation + high zoom.


In place = 4 hills (1 plains, 3 grass)
PH = at least 3 hills (2 plains, 1 grass). Can't say what's in the fog

PH: kossin, Duckweed,BornInCantaloup

SIP: dingding, Bugg123 (since it doesn't appear like tundra change your vote?), Udey1

So it's 3v3, although Bugg123 voted SIP when it appeared to be tundra.

>>>I prefer that the one playing the set decide which way to go when there is a tie.

@ The Oracle slingshot :
Kossin and DingDing : why do you seem to favour CoL so much ? Whithout knowledge of the map, I can only see it superior to Monarchy because it is on the way to Civil Service. Is that the reason ? (Or SPI temples ?)
CoL requires Writing, which may delay either worker techs or RExing. Monarchy is less useful on the tech tree but I consider it FAR more powerful on its own than CoL. I insist on the "on its own" part, because Alphabet can be discovered very late on Emperor difficulty.

Click to expand...

1.Guarantees a religion on our landmass (can't say if we're isolated/semi/etc.)
2.We're spiritual and philosophical, the earlier we can take advantage of it, the better
3.If we find stone nearby, Pyramids is guaranteed to be attempted
4.Temples are cheap (effectively 40), combined with religion, that's 2 free happy per city
5. Good culture boost in second city if we settle near someone
6. Easier border pops (run artist 4 turns -> saves forests)
7. Delaying worker techs remains to be seen. Having early writing is certainly a plus
8. We'll get a monster tech rate with this early
9. Monarchy requires MPolice which costs hammers and upkeep. AIs still research it frequently
10. Better trading chip (doesn't matter much on Emperor though as the penalty is smaller)
11. Opens up CS earlier

Duckweed said:

Detailed plan

Tech BW->Agri->BW

Turn 0 -- Settler SE to PH, Warrior to NE
Turn 1 -- Settle and Delhi builds Worker. Warrior ???
Turn 18 -- Worker 1 irrigates SW corn, Delhi starts 2 warriors.
Turn 26 -- Worker 1 goes to irrigate NW corn
Turn 36 -- BW in, 2 corns improved. worker1 is available for next move. End of set.

1st and 2nd citizens on Corns, 3rd citizen on grassland forest.

Click to expand...

What tile are you planning on using before the first corn is completed? Either one of the corns for faster growth or 1/2 to get the second warrior out faster for exploration?

Otherwise it sounds good.

kossin said:

>>>I prefer that the one playing the set decide which way to go when there is a tie.

Click to expand...

I forgot to mention this. In the SGs I played, the player who is UP decide which way to go when there is a tie.

kossin said:

What tile are you planning on using before the first corn is completed? Either one of the corns for faster growth or 1/2 to get the second warrior out faster for exploration?

Click to expand...

The city governor is ON by default. Therefore the 1st citizen will work at 2F1H before culture pops and then to the corn. 3rd citizen is uncertain, I will put it on 2F1H tile unless there is another 3F tile. I think it's better to let the city grow to size 4 as soon as possible so that we can start the 2nd settler and have it out by 2 pop whip.