Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
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She must have been reading over your shoulder when you wrote that and you just wanted to bug her.
Am I right?
SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
She must have been reading over your shoulder when you wrote that and you just wanted to bug her.
Am I right?Mitchum
Deity
Edited: Updates are in red.
I’d like to ask permission to play 4 extra turns to T60. This accomplishes several things:
AGREED! I will play until T60.
With that, here are the high level details for my turn set:
Research:
Masonry -> Monotheism (-> BW -> PH -> Writing)
I will use binary research, still getting Monotheism on T60. I will do this by setting research to 0% for 1 turn (the turn settler 2 is completed) and then back to 100% for the remainder of my turnset. Per testing, this will net 6 extra beakers.
Delhi:
The only builds during my turn set will be settler 2 (T54) -> warrior 3 (T60). At all times, citizens will be working the corn tiles (improved or not). For MM details, see the turn-by-turn spoiler.
Silverado:
Silverado will be founded on T55 1NW of the deer (2W of the silver) in Irgy’s original suggested spot. The pros and cons of this spot vs. settling on the ice to get another silver resource and a whale tile while giving up the deer can be found here. Silver City will build warrior 4 and will have its only citizen work the silver resource (improved or not) for my entire turn set (and likely the next two as well).
POSSIBLE DISCUSSION POINT: Settle as suggested above or on the ice? AGREED to settle in the original location as described above.
Worker Actions:
Worker 1 will improve the northern corn -> western corn -> partial farm 2S of capital if no forest -> silver mine -> partial farm 2s of capital if no forest -> plains hill mine. No worker turns will be lost in movement.
Warrior 1 Actions:
Warrior 1 will stay fortified in his current location for the entire time. Moving him leaves too big a risk that more barbs will spawn on the northern peninsula. Promote unit to Woody I if/when he gets 2 experience points.
Warrior 2 Actions:
Warrior 2 will proceed to fog-busting location in the forest 1W of pigs with caution. He will NOT do any extra exploring. Promote unit to Woody I if/when he gets 2 experience points.
As a note, I saw a bear disappear on T49 right before my eyes in my test game, which seems to indicate that on this turn, barb animals disappear and human barbs spawn. To be safe, I’d like to be in my fog busting spot (in the forest 1W of the pigs) by T47. Of course, all of this depends on the bear that is definitely still roaming the area.
During my exploration, I will use our cultural borders, the river, forests and visibility across the lake to my advantage to move as safely as possible to warrior 2’s fog busing location.
DISCUSSION POINT: Should I just go straight to my fog busting location or explore a bit as desciribed in the attached screen shot in the spoiler? Should I delay getting to the forest until T49? The sooner I get there, the sooner I'll have to square off with the bear... AGREED to move directly to the fog-busting location with caution. No extra exploration.
For the micro managers in the group, here is my proposed turn-by-turn plan:
Espionage – I noticed that we have as many points against Zara as he has against us (+/- 4). This may mean nothing as he's putting as many points against us as we're putting against him as Dhoomstriker predicted. However, it could also mean that we're on a continent alone with Zara... T36 and he's the only AI we've met?
I’d like to ask permission to play 4 extra turns to T60. This accomplishes several things:
1. We learn Monotheism on T60. This will enable us to move forward already knowing that we have founded our second religion (and confirm that Silver City will be the holy city).
2. We complete warrior 3 on T60; what to do with him will be a main point of discussion for the next turn set.
3. It gets us back to round numbers (not a big deal).
4. This turn set will be boring, so it gives me a bit more to do.
2. We complete warrior 3 on T60; what to do with him will be a main point of discussion for the next turn set.
3. It gets us back to round numbers (not a big deal).
4. This turn set will be boring, so it gives me a bit more to do.
AGREED! I will play until T60.
With that, here are the high level details for my turn set:
Research:
Masonry -> Monotheism (-> BW -> PH -> Writing)
I will use binary research, still getting Monotheism on T60. I will do this by setting research to 0% for 1 turn (the turn settler 2 is completed) and then back to 100% for the remainder of my turnset. Per testing, this will net 6 extra beakers.
Delhi:
The only builds during my turn set will be settler 2 (T54) -> warrior 3 (T60). At all times, citizens will be working the corn tiles (improved or not). For MM details, see the turn-by-turn spoiler.
Silverado:
Silverado will be founded on T55 1NW of the deer (2W of the silver) in Irgy’s original suggested spot. The pros and cons of this spot vs. settling on the ice to get another silver resource and a whale tile while giving up the deer can be found here. Silver City will build warrior 4 and will have its only citizen work the silver resource (improved or not) for my entire turn set (and likely the next two as well).
POSSIBLE DISCUSSION POINT: Settle as suggested above or on the ice? AGREED to settle in the original location as described above.
Worker Actions:
Worker 1 will improve the northern corn -> western corn -> partial farm 2S of capital if no forest -> silver mine -> partial farm 2s of capital if no forest -> plains hill mine. No worker turns will be lost in movement.
Warrior 1 Actions:
Warrior 1 will stay fortified in his current location for the entire time. Moving him leaves too big a risk that more barbs will spawn on the northern peninsula. Promote unit to Woody I if/when he gets 2 experience points.
Warrior 2 Actions:
Warrior 2 will proceed to fog-busting location in the forest 1W of pigs with caution. He will NOT do any extra exploring. Promote unit to Woody I if/when he gets 2 experience points.
As a note, I saw a bear disappear on T49 right before my eyes in my test game, which seems to indicate that on this turn, barb animals disappear and human barbs spawn. To be safe, I’d like to be in my fog busting spot (in the forest 1W of the pigs) by T47. Of course, all of this depends on the bear that is definitely still roaming the area.
During my exploration, I will use our cultural borders, the river, forests and visibility across the lake to my advantage to move as safely as possible to warrior 2’s fog busing location.
DISCUSSION POINT: Should I just go straight to my fog busting location or explore a bit as desciribed in the attached screen shot in the spoiler? Should I delay getting to the forest until T49? The sooner I get there, the sooner I'll have to square off with the bear... AGREED to move directly to the fog-busting location with caution. No extra exploration.
For the micro managers in the group, here is my proposed turn-by-turn plan:
Spoiler :
Mitchum
Deity
In general, I'm reluctant to give a unit a promotion until I see what he needs. If my axe makes it all the way to an enemy city without getting wounded, I'll give him City Raider promotions the turn I plan to attack. If that same axe is going to attack an axe guarding an iron mine, I'll give him the Shock promotion the turn I am going to attack. Sometimes, if my odds are > 95%, I won't give the unit a promotion at all, saving it as a way to quickly heal the unit if it gets wounded. Saving the promotion does two things. First, it lets me tailor the promotion to what is needed at the time. Second, any damage the unit has taken (i.e. via siege weapons), gets partially healed before attacking. I know that we are all aware of this fact and do this in our own games. IIRC, we have a rule for it.
In this game, we will likely build 6 or 7 warriors (depending on when we find copper). Since we only need 4 warriors at the end of the game, if we are relatively confident that we can keep these 4 alive, there may come a day when one of these warriors will need to do more than hang from the trees and pee all over his trousers. In a pinch, we may end up upgrading one of them for some future combat mission. If we do that, a Woodsman pomoted mace is nowhere near as good as a City Raider mace at attacking cities. In fact, after the early part of the game, the Woodsman promotion is somewhat limited, unless you can get Woody II and enjoy double movement though the trees (e.g. Tarzan).
So, the reason I asked about losing the fortification bonus is that if a barb does wander near our friend, we can give him the Woody I promotion and he's still fortified. If no such barb comes around, we've got a unit with a free promotion that may serve us later in a non-Woody way.
Regarding healing, once we have our two fog busters in place, the odds of getting attacked twice in rapid succession are quite low in my opinion. So the need to promote to speed up healing doesn't seem like a major issue to me.
With all of that said, there is a risk that someone will miss the fact that there is a barb nearby, fogetting to give our mate his Woody promotion. That would be bad, especially if we lost said mate to the barbs.
Sooooo, the SAFEST move would be to hand out the promotion ASAP to avoid a mistake in the future (especially with 7 people playing the turns). But the BETTER move would be to hang on to this promotion until we know what we need.
Am I missing something? Is there a hole in this logic somewhere?
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
Okay, I vote for the original Silver City location (2W of silver). The other site is even more food poor than the spot we chose.
There was a scout and apparently he injured the lion because it was a half dead lion that attacked me. I was able to avoid the other lion and bear completely.
The wolf I killed was 1NW of the new silver. There is still a lion over there.
I think that we should promote to WoodI on those two warriors ASAP.
I agree with Irgy's analysis of the compromise but it was a compromise and it allowed us to finally play.
I'm good with Mitchum playing 4 extra turns. So long as we don't spend 5 extra days discussing one choice in those 4 turns.
I don't like the idea of heading up to explore those extra squares right now. Let's use that warrior as we all agree is best and take as little chance as possible with him.
As far as builds/exploring goes: We need to remember that we have to keep 4 warriors safe to the end of the game. We need to figure this in at some point before we can't build them anymore. We also need to have some military so that we can protect ourselves from other AI too.
No matter what, we will have to send settler3 to the east to try and block off Zara. And yes it does look like we may be alone on this landmass with Zara and not much in the way of resources (especially those we need).
There was a scout and apparently he injured the lion because it was a half dead lion that attacked me. I was able to avoid the other lion and bear completely.
The wolf I killed was 1NW of the new silver. There is still a lion over there.
I think that we should promote to WoodI on those two warriors ASAP.
I agree with Irgy's analysis of the compromise but it was a compromise and it allowed us to finally play.
I'm good with Mitchum playing 4 extra turns. So long as we don't spend 5 extra days discussing one choice in those 4 turns.
I don't like the idea of heading up to explore those extra squares right now. Let's use that warrior as we all agree is best and take as little chance as possible with him.
As far as builds/exploring goes: We need to remember that we have to keep 4 warriors safe to the end of the game. We need to figure this in at some point before we can't build them anymore. We also need to have some military so that we can protect ourselves from other AI too.
No matter what, we will have to send settler3 to the east to try and block off Zara. And yes it does look like we may be alone on this landmass with Zara and not much in the way of resources (especially those we need).
Okay, well I guess you guys took my Pros and Cons as something that you are able to vote on and voted already. Whatever.I'll vote for Irgy's location.
Well, call them statements of preference rather than a votes if you like.
I think that's a good idea, for the reasons you've given.
I am happy with the turn set as described.
As for the warrior moves, my inclination would be to head straight there. I'd head basically from T36 across the cows to T43. I don't mind the proposed path that much though.
I just want to tell you guys something.
I was unable to follow the thread yesterday evening. Was out till 2am. When I looked at it this morning there were 5 (!!!) pages of long posts. There is no way I can handle this amount of info. I am sure there are excellent ideas, with excellent explanation, but the amount of words is amazing.
My point is simple: when you claim for an argument, it is better to give at most 3 convincing arguments in, say, 2 posts, then to give 100 convincing arguments in 10 posts. I don't know about you guys, but I cannot digest the latter. I think that if we all limit ourselves a little bit we can have a much more effective discussion, and somehow manage to reach agreements earlier.
I was unable to follow the thread yesterday evening. Was out till 2am. When I looked at it this morning there were 5 (!!!) pages of long posts. There is no way I can handle this amount of info. I am sure there are excellent ideas, with excellent explanation, but the amount of words is amazing.
My point is simple: when you claim for an argument, it is better to give at most 3 convincing arguments in, say, 2 posts, then to give 100 convincing arguments in 10 posts. I don't know about you guys, but I cannot digest the latter. I think that if we all limit ourselves a little bit we can have a much more effective discussion, and somehow manage to reach agreements earlier.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I agree that we're posting too much, and sometime we risk also that good ideas will be lost. Fact is that we were all on line and we used the thread as a sort of chat, like yesterday night.
I hope we'll post a lot less for this TS.
I agree to round the turns, so Mitch can play 'til turn 60. This will be the last 20 turns TS, then starting from mine, we'll go for 15 turns/TS.
Of course i vote for Silver City (i like Silverado too) 2W of silver, where Irgy proposed it.
Binary research: Warlords and BtS do not round to integer like Vanilla, still you gain something using it. Not if it can delay to found a religion, which is a main part of our crazy (unusual, at least) strategy.
So i suggest that few turns before settle Silverado we turn the slider to the limit which gives us Mono in the same turn and which save some money.
After Mono, or when the silver is improved, we can set to 0 for a 1-2 turns, then raise.
In any case we can't run 100% when city #2 is founded so, better do something actively than let the slider go down by himself.
Promote the warriors ASAP, Woodsman.
Not sure if scouting around the stone is too risky.
For the rest, it's OK. Good luck!
I hope we'll post a lot less for this TS.
I agree to round the turns, so Mitch can play 'til turn 60. This will be the last 20 turns TS, then starting from mine, we'll go for 15 turns/TS.
Of course i vote for Silver City (i like Silverado too) 2W of silver, where Irgy proposed it.
Binary research: Warlords and BtS do not round to integer like Vanilla, still you gain something using it. Not if it can delay to found a religion, which is a main part of our crazy (unusual, at least) strategy.
So i suggest that few turns before settle Silverado we turn the slider to the limit which gives us Mono in the same turn and which save some money.
After Mono, or when the silver is improved, we can set to 0 for a 1-2 turns, then raise.
In any case we can't run 100% when city #2 is founded so, better do something actively than let the slider go down by himself.
Promote the warriors ASAP, Woodsman.
Not sure if scouting around the stone is too risky.
For the rest, it's OK. Good luck!
Mitchum
Deity
OK. I think we have a large majority opting to place Silverado near the lake in the original location Irgy suggested. Check.
I also think that the team would feel better giving Warrior 1 & 2 Woody promotions as soon as they have 2 experience points. Check.
Play until turn 60. Check.
Manipulate science as required to ensure that we learn Monotheism by T60, doing binary research if available. I'll have to test this. I may be able to run 0% science for 1 turn early on before Silverado is settled and then leave it at 100% the rest of my turn set.
EDIT: I just confirmed that binary research will work and I can still get Monotheism on T60. I set research to 0% on the turn the settler was completed (could have been any turn before that really). On the next turn, I set research back to 100%. I was able to keep it at 100% for the remainder of my turnset with 1 gold to spare.
EDIT 2: I played 1 extra turn with and without binary research. With binary research on T61 I had 42 beakers (and 1 gold) in BW. Without binary research I only had 31 beakers (and 3 gold). Is it possible that the difference could be this big? In both cases, I knew the same 3 AI...
Regarding warrior exploration:
We have one vote against exploration, one that prefers heading straight to our fog busting location but feels that exploration is ok too and one that feels that scouting isn't overly risky.
Since Warrior 1, Warrior 2, lion and bear are all "fog busting" the peninsula, I don't expect any more animal barbs to spawn unless we kill one (right Dhoomstriker?). So my goal would be to avoid the bear and lion and arrive at our fog busting location before T48.
My biggest concern about going straight there is that the bear is out there. If I go fairly straight to the fog busting location, a face off is almost guaranteed. If I get attacked in the open, the bear has a 79.3% chance of success. If I get attacked the turn I enter the forest, the bear has a 33.8%% chance of success. As the warrior sits in the forest, the bear's odds continue to go down. Although I would rather not have to fight the bear at all (even 33.8% odds are a bit risky), I'd much rather be in the woods than on open land.
What I was thinking was that by moving around, I could wait until I spot both the lion and the bear. With the size of our cutlural borders and the fact that we have Warrior 1 in place and Warrior 2 out there, the odds of seeing the lion are pretty high. Once I know where he is, he should be a lot easier to avoid. The bear, on the other hand, will be a bit more difficult as he's out on the far end of the peninsula as far as we know (in all of my test games, he wandered out there in a fairly small area). I would rather wait until I know where he is before I take another step west into the "unknown". Doing my exploring to uncover those three unfogged tiles should give me a little more time to figure out where he is. Plus, it removes any obligation for future exploring units to have to waste a single turn heading west. They can focus on going north and east.
So, I think my chances of an animal encounter are about the same, whether I explore or not. Obviously, the explore option has the added benefit of unfogging 3 tiles. I will not be required to get to my fog busting location quickly and can stay in place for a few turns until I have more info on where the animals are.
It's up to the team. Regardless of what I do, the bear poses a fairly big risk.
An alternative could be to wait until T49 when the bear disappears. In this case, we would pray that either no barbs spawn in the next 2 turns or that if one does spawn, it's a warrior and not an archer.
I will proceed as the team wishes.
I'm fine doing what the team decides.
For fun, it may be valuable to have all of us play cat-and-mouse with the bear and lion. Both are present in the test game. This will give all of us a feel for how the animals behave and how to avoid them. It may be a good idea to play a second test game, this time putting the bear and lion in different starting spots. If any of you do this, any insights or suggestions you could offer would be helpful.
I also think that the team would feel better giving Warrior 1 & 2 Woody promotions as soon as they have 2 experience points. Check.
Play until turn 60. Check.
Manipulate science as required to ensure that we learn Monotheism by T60, doing binary research if available. I'll have to test this. I may be able to run 0% science for 1 turn early on before Silverado is settled and then leave it at 100% the rest of my turn set.
EDIT: I just confirmed that binary research will work and I can still get Monotheism on T60. I set research to 0% on the turn the settler was completed (could have been any turn before that really). On the next turn, I set research back to 100%. I was able to keep it at 100% for the remainder of my turnset with 1 gold to spare.
EDIT 2: I played 1 extra turn with and without binary research. With binary research on T61 I had 42 beakers (and 1 gold) in BW. Without binary research I only had 31 beakers (and 3 gold). Is it possible that the difference could be this big? In both cases, I knew the same 3 AI...
Regarding warrior exploration:
We have one vote against exploration, one that prefers heading straight to our fog busting location but feels that exploration is ok too and one that feels that scouting isn't overly risky.
Since Warrior 1, Warrior 2, lion and bear are all "fog busting" the peninsula, I don't expect any more animal barbs to spawn unless we kill one (right Dhoomstriker?). So my goal would be to avoid the bear and lion and arrive at our fog busting location before T48.
My biggest concern about going straight there is that the bear is out there. If I go fairly straight to the fog busting location, a face off is almost guaranteed. If I get attacked in the open, the bear has a 79.3% chance of success. If I get attacked the turn I enter the forest, the bear has a 33.8%% chance of success. As the warrior sits in the forest, the bear's odds continue to go down. Although I would rather not have to fight the bear at all (even 33.8% odds are a bit risky), I'd much rather be in the woods than on open land.
What I was thinking was that by moving around, I could wait until I spot both the lion and the bear. With the size of our cutlural borders and the fact that we have Warrior 1 in place and Warrior 2 out there, the odds of seeing the lion are pretty high. Once I know where he is, he should be a lot easier to avoid. The bear, on the other hand, will be a bit more difficult as he's out on the far end of the peninsula as far as we know (in all of my test games, he wandered out there in a fairly small area). I would rather wait until I know where he is before I take another step west into the "unknown". Doing my exploring to uncover those three unfogged tiles should give me a little more time to figure out where he is. Plus, it removes any obligation for future exploring units to have to waste a single turn heading west. They can focus on going north and east.
So, I think my chances of an animal encounter are about the same, whether I explore or not. Obviously, the explore option has the added benefit of unfogging 3 tiles. I will not be required to get to my fog busting location quickly and can stay in place for a few turns until I have more info on where the animals are.
It's up to the team. Regardless of what I do, the bear poses a fairly big risk.
An alternative could be to wait until T49 when the bear disappears. In this case, we would pray that either no barbs spawn in the next 2 turns or that if one does spawn, it's a warrior and not an archer.
I will proceed as the team wishes.
I'm fine doing what the team decides.
For fun, it may be valuable to have all of us play cat-and-mouse with the bear and lion. Both are present in the test game. This will give all of us a feel for how the animals behave and how to avoid them. It may be a good idea to play a second test game, this time putting the bear and lion in different starting spots. If any of you do this, any insights or suggestions you could offer would be helpful.
Mitchum
Deity
OK. I ran a more controlled test.
Test 1: Binary Research - I used 0% research for 1 turn and 100% research the rest of the turns other than the last turn, where research was set to 90% to ensure Monotheism was learned on T60. I also researched Monarchy after Monotheism, a tech I knew none of the AI had learned yet.
Results on T61: 37 beakers into Monarchy. 1 gold in the treasury.
Test 2: Sliding Research - I used 100% research until Silverado was founded. I then dropped the slider to 80% generating +1 gold/turn. I ran one turn of 100% research once the silver was mined. Then I set the slider back to 90%, which was at break even (i.e. no gold generated or lost).
Results on T61: 31 beakers into Monarchy. 1 gold in the treasury.
Conclusion: Binary research does have an advantage and MUST be used by this team in all cases unless it delays a key tech by an unacceptable amount of time. It's like working the silver mine for one extra turn in this early stage of the game. My test ran only 7 turns and provided a 6 beaker advantage over 128 beakers of research. This equates to about a 5% increase in science rate. This may not seem like much (6 beakers) but 5% will add up over time into a much larger advantage.
It takes more effort to run binary research, but the benefits outweigh the extra investment in time and care. It requires that we always pay attention to the science slider since it will self-adjust down (never up) as our expenses go up.
Test 1: Binary Research - I used 0% research for 1 turn and 100% research the rest of the turns other than the last turn, where research was set to 90% to ensure Monotheism was learned on T60. I also researched Monarchy after Monotheism, a tech I knew none of the AI had learned yet.
Results on T61: 37 beakers into Monarchy. 1 gold in the treasury.
Test 2: Sliding Research - I used 100% research until Silverado was founded. I then dropped the slider to 80% generating +1 gold/turn. I ran one turn of 100% research once the silver was mined. Then I set the slider back to 90%, which was at break even (i.e. no gold generated or lost).
Results on T61: 31 beakers into Monarchy. 1 gold in the treasury.
Conclusion: Binary research does have an advantage and MUST be used by this team in all cases unless it delays a key tech by an unacceptable amount of time. It's like working the silver mine for one extra turn in this early stage of the game. My test ran only 7 turns and provided a 6 beaker advantage over 128 beakers of research. This equates to about a 5% increase in science rate. This may not seem like much (6 beakers) but 5% will add up over time into a much larger advantage.
It takes more effort to run binary research, but the benefits outweigh the extra investment in time and care. It requires that we always pay attention to the science slider since it will self-adjust down (never up) as our expenses go up.
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 13,474
Binary Research should be used, even pre-Monotheism
The biggest benefit is a benefit that is hidden from the interface but is a very real benefit. That is that whenever you aren't researching a "first level" tech, i.e. not one of the 7 techs that are on the far left of the tech tree, you will get bonuses to your research. You'll even get bonuses to your research for those first 7 techs if you've met a lot of AIs, but the factor often isn't as big as it is for every other tech. Basically, you get at least a 20% bonus Science for each tech, due to knowing its pre-requisite.
If you are making 14 base Flasks per turn, then you will benefit from the 20% bonus. However, if you drop your research slider to 90% or 80% and you then make anywhere from 10 to 13 base Flasks per turn, then you are missing out on a free Flask per turn. You can't get that Flask back. There is no rounding on said Flask. You either get it or you don't.
In my example, Binary Research lets you miss out on bonus Flasks for one turn, in exchange for about 6 or 7 turns of getting that bonus Flask.
The rounding effect has not really been fully tested. It is clear that if you have one city making 1.76 Flasks and another making 7.47 Flasks, you will get 9 Flasks added onto your Flask output, instead of just 8 Flasks. What isn't clear is what happens to the remainder... 1.76 + 7.47 = 9.22... do we keep that .22 to carry forward into the next turn or does it disappear? If a remainder is carried-forward, does it disappear after a tech is fully learned? No one on the forums, that I have read about anyway, has gone into this level of detail. However, it has been made clear time and time again that C++ floor (truncating and discarding remainder values) routines are used liberally throughout the code.
Thus, I would believe it if these remainder values were thrown away. The best way to avoid seeing these kinds of remainder values in most of our cities is to always run our Science rate using Binary Research--0% or 100%. Fortunately, BUFFY makes Binary Research easy to do, letting you use the additional "-" and "+" buttons to "immediately toggle" between 0% and 100% Science, so that doing so is not a mind-numbing task of clicking 10 times.
On the turn that I settled in Irgy's location in my test games, I immediately set the Science slider to 0% for 1 turn. The next turn, I was able to set it to 100% for the rest of Monotheism. Using Binary Research, I got Monotheism in the same amount of time as I would have if I didn't touch the Science slider and it was automatically adjusted, while being able to maximize the chance of gaining bonus Flasks and minimize the strong chance that remainder Flasks and remainder Gold are thrown away. If you want to try BLubz' method of Science to 0% before settling Silverado, be sure to run a test game first, just to make sure that we'll get enough Gold from that 1 turn of 0% Science in order to complete Monotheism--if not, then wait until you've settled Silverado in order to set Science Rate to 0%. Finally, once you're done researching Monotheism, remember to set our Science Rate to 0% again, so that we can accumulate a bit more gold for Bronze Working.
Do not be thrown off by the "same amount of time" comment. I am only saying that we do not slow down our tech path to Monotheism. You are unlikely to see the gains that I am talking about show up as getting every tech 1 turn faster. More likely, in the early game, you'll see yourself getting every 3rd or 4th tech 1 turn faster. But, it's free Flasks (Science), so don't look a gift-horse in the mouth, so they say.
If you want to run a Test Game to prove me wrong or right
If someone WERE to run a test game to see if remainders go away or are carried forward across turns, the EASIEST way to do so would be with Gold. Gold doesn't get hidden bonuses and it also wouldn't have the possibility of "remainders being reset" when a Tech is learned. So, if anyone wants to try and prove me wrong, go ahead and run a test game to see if fractions of a Gold are "stored" across turns and eventually add up to 1 more Gold, or prove that my theory is right in that those fractions are forever lost (making BTS even WORSE than Vanilla and Warlords for micromanagement due to the way that fractions were set up, since it would mean that Binary Research is even MORE important to use in BTS).
Other Random Comments
That said, on the turn that a Warrior kills a Barb unit, there is a chance that a newly spawned Barb unit (a very small chance, I will admit) will be able to attack us again after 3 turns' worth of healing. So, if a Warrior is drastically wounded, it would be definitely worth "triggering" the promotion right away.
Also, if we do not assign promotions to those Warriors, we'll have to be sure NOT TO FORTIFY THEM. They'll have to "Skip their turns" (pressing the Spacebar key) each turn, otherwise the risk that a Barb unit will spawn that the UP player does not notice is too great.
So, I'm fine with you delaying the promotions if you promise to use one when the unit is badly wounded (when he is at half or less than half of its health) AND as long as you do not fortify the units but instead use the "Skip turn" icon or equally press the Spacebar for both Warriors on each turn that you would otherwise have them fortified.
Binary Research is just as important, and in some cases, even more important in BTS than in Warlords or Vanilla, particularly due to the rounding.
The biggest benefit is a benefit that is hidden from the interface but is a very real benefit. That is that whenever you aren't researching a "first level" tech, i.e. not one of the 7 techs that are on the far left of the tech tree, you will get bonuses to your research. You'll even get bonuses to your research for those first 7 techs if you've met a lot of AIs, but the factor often isn't as big as it is for every other tech. Basically, you get at least a 20% bonus Science for each tech, due to knowing its pre-requisite.
If you are making 14 base Flasks per turn, then you will benefit from the 20% bonus. However, if you drop your research slider to 90% or 80% and you then make anywhere from 10 to 13 base Flasks per turn, then you are missing out on a free Flask per turn. You can't get that Flask back. There is no rounding on said Flask. You either get it or you don't.
In my example, Binary Research lets you miss out on bonus Flasks for one turn, in exchange for about 6 or 7 turns of getting that bonus Flask.
The rounding effect has not really been fully tested. It is clear that if you have one city making 1.76 Flasks and another making 7.47 Flasks, you will get 9 Flasks added onto your Flask output, instead of just 8 Flasks. What isn't clear is what happens to the remainder... 1.76 + 7.47 = 9.22... do we keep that .22 to carry forward into the next turn or does it disappear? If a remainder is carried-forward, does it disappear after a tech is fully learned? No one on the forums, that I have read about anyway, has gone into this level of detail. However, it has been made clear time and time again that C++ floor (truncating and discarding remainder values) routines are used liberally throughout the code.
Thus, I would believe it if these remainder values were thrown away. The best way to avoid seeing these kinds of remainder values in most of our cities is to always run our Science rate using Binary Research--0% or 100%. Fortunately, BUFFY makes Binary Research easy to do, letting you use the additional "-" and "+" buttons to "immediately toggle" between 0% and 100% Science, so that doing so is not a mind-numbing task of clicking 10 times.
On the turn that I settled in Irgy's location in my test games, I immediately set the Science slider to 0% for 1 turn. The next turn, I was able to set it to 100% for the rest of Monotheism. Using Binary Research, I got Monotheism in the same amount of time as I would have if I didn't touch the Science slider and it was automatically adjusted, while being able to maximize the chance of gaining bonus Flasks and minimize the strong chance that remainder Flasks and remainder Gold are thrown away. If you want to try BLubz' method of Science to 0% before settling Silverado, be sure to run a test game first, just to make sure that we'll get enough Gold from that 1 turn of 0% Science in order to complete Monotheism--if not, then wait until you've settled Silverado in order to set Science Rate to 0%. Finally, once you're done researching Monotheism, remember to set our Science Rate to 0% again, so that we can accumulate a bit more gold for Bronze Working.
Do not be thrown off by the "same amount of time" comment. I am only saying that we do not slow down our tech path to Monotheism. You are unlikely to see the gains that I am talking about show up as getting every tech 1 turn faster. More likely, in the early game, you'll see yourself getting every 3rd or 4th tech 1 turn faster. But, it's free Flasks (Science), so don't look a gift-horse in the mouth, so they say.
If you want to run a Test Game to prove me wrong or right
If someone WERE to run a test game to see if remainders go away or are carried forward across turns, the EASIEST way to do so would be with Gold. Gold doesn't get hidden bonuses and it also wouldn't have the possibility of "remainders being reset" when a Tech is learned. So, if anyone wants to try and prove me wrong, go ahead and run a test game to see if fractions of a Gold are "stored" across turns and eventually add up to 1 more Gold, or prove that my theory is right in that those fractions are forever lost (making BTS even WORSE than Vanilla and Warlords for micromanagement due to the way that fractions were set up, since it would mean that Binary Research is even MORE important to use in BTS).
Other Random Comments
Mitchum, I see what you are saying and I understand your arguments about the Warriors.
That said, on the turn that a Warrior kills a Barb unit, there is a chance that a newly spawned Barb unit (a very small chance, I will admit) will be able to attack us again after 3 turns' worth of healing. So, if a Warrior is drastically wounded, it would be definitely worth "triggering" the promotion right away.
Also, if we do not assign promotions to those Warriors, we'll have to be sure NOT TO FORTIFY THEM. They'll have to "Skip their turns" (pressing the Spacebar key) each turn, otherwise the risk that a Barb unit will spawn that the UP player does not notice is too great.
So, I'm fine with you delaying the promotions if you promise to use one when the unit is badly wounded (when he is at half or less than half of its health) AND as long as you do not fortify the units but instead use the "Skip turn" icon or equally press the Spacebar for both Warriors on each turn that you would otherwise have them fortified.
I would suggest leaving this scouting duty to a future Warrior. We seem to want to settle east or north and I support us settling towards Zara with Settler 3, so knowing the hidden squares near the Stone Resource is not a current priority, especially not one that would risk our fog-busting getting messed up (such as Warrior 1 having to fight in the open and dying, for example).
Dhoomstriker
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I must have missed the message where someone talked about exploring around the Stone. I'll have to go back and read it.
However, if someone wants Warrior 1 to explore the Stone, then we'll risk his life, which is now pretty safe. We'll also risk more Barb units spawning in the NW of the western area.
If someone wants Warrior 2 to explore the Stone, then your above points about risking a fight with the Bear are part of the equation. Even more importantly, by moving Warrior 2 way out there, he will no longer be fog-busting the west properly, and for sure, another Barb unit will spawn out there. That's a terrible situation to have happen and is not an acceptable risk to take.
I also support Mitchum's slow, steady creeping of Warrior 2 towards his planned Fog Busting location. The best bet would be to not fight the Bear at all. The Bear will likely disappear somewhere between turns 50 and 56, from my testing. I'd rather see us getting the Warrior to his assigned Forest as safely as possible, and the best way to do that is to rely on the fact that Barb units must "walk back and forth," while we can opt to stay in place for a turn. That's our biggest advantage for avoiding the Bear--if a Bear doesn't "walk in and out of sight" for a few turns, there's a greater chance that you won't run into him (never a 100% chance) than if you just beeline to the Fog Busting 2 location, in which case you take on a great chance of running into the Bear.
Mitchum
Deity
Great minds think alike. I've already run the testing and posted my results in the post just before yours. YES, binary research is the way to go. I use it almost religiously in my games, but usually after I have libraries. I wasn't aware of the advantage this early in the game until I ran my test.
It appears that the rest of the team wants to promote right away. We give up a small advantage of saving a promotion in exchange for the safty in knowing that no one will mess up and forget to give the promotion when needed. I'm fine either way, but unless someone else speaks up, I'll give the Woody promotion if/when Warrior 1 or 2 gets two experience points.
Do you think that exploring is riskier than moving to the west right away (i.e. hitting space bar every once in a while to ensure the coast is clear)? I'm afraid that if I go straight there, a fight with the bear is almost gauranteed and the odds aren't great (33.8% loss) that we'll win even if we are on a forest tile.
Dhoomstriker
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Your reasons make sense to me. I am fine with you playing those extra turns.
If we're able to micro a bit in a test game and get Warrior 3 out one turn sooner (something to try--I haven't tried it yet but thought about it while brushing my teeth), even then I think you can play those extra turns, as most of us (all of us, maybe, even?) seem to want to explore eastward next, so it wouldn't be too hard to send Warrior 3 1NE or something (for either east or north exploration), if you get a turn of movement out of him.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
OK, so binary research be it.
Usually we let the UP player discretion on the unit movements.
But since we're talkin about unpromoted warriors and we're going in deep on PPPs this SG, i just recommend the max care and caution.
No more, no less. Said this, i think we can finally have a TS with almost nothing to decide.
So i start a discussion on next TS, mine, BTW.
Start research on BW and build warriors in Dehli until size 4 (we need 2, at least: 1 for guarding Dehli and one for scout) and let Silverado build 2 warriors (again, 1 for the city and 1 for scout) and a worker?
This will total 6 warriors, provided they all survive. 4 are needed to meet one of the conditions.
Usually we let the UP player discretion on the unit movements.
But since we're talkin about unpromoted warriors and we're going in deep on PPPs this SG, i just recommend the max care and caution.
No more, no less. Said this, i think we can finally have a TS with almost nothing to decide.
So i start a discussion on next TS, mine, BTW.
Start research on BW and build warriors in Dehli until size 4 (we need 2, at least: 1 for guarding Dehli and one for scout) and let Silverado build 2 warriors (again, 1 for the city and 1 for scout) and a worker?
This will total 6 warriors, provided they all survive. 4 are needed to meet one of the conditions.
Dhoomstriker
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That's neat. I wasn't sure if a Barb Animal had to be "out of view of the human player" in order for it to disappear or not. It's also nice to be able to extend the range that my test games saw them disappearing to even before Barb Archers can appear.
Dhoomstriker
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All test games indicate that we will grow to Size 4 well before the first Warrior is complete in Delhi. There really is no discussion to have here. Growing to Size 5 would just mean that we'd delay building Settler 3.
It would take forever for the next Warrior to come out, as we'll already be partway to Size 5 before the first Warrior is complete.
Please run a short test game, because you'll quickly see that building 2 Warriors in the capitol after Settler 2 is not a viable option.
Dhoomstriker
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Yes, I do think that it is riskier to go and scout out the Stone than to just stay where you are for a good number of turns.
We BELIEVE that the Bear is doing some fog-busting of the west, but in our test game, the Bear wandered all the way up to the north.
You'll want Warrior 2 to be near the SW to help passively fog-bust a bit (remember that the 5x5 radius applies at all times, not just when a unit is sitting in a Forest), and then if the Bear has obviously moved (say, if Warrior 1 spots him), then you'll definitely need Warrior 2 to be in the south-west instead of near the Stone, or else 2 Barb units will likely spawn during both the Bear's and Warrior 2's absence.
It's weird to think about, but as long as the Bear is where we think he is, it's best to leave well enough alone. He'll passively fog-bust, preventing many other Barb units from appearing, and as you said, even a fortified Forest fight is not really in our favour. Any other location for a Bear fight is almost certain death for Warrior 2.
We've at least got the Coast and Lakes to restrict the Bear from moving towards us, but there will definitely be a bit of a risk factor as soon as you move to the square 1SW of the Pig, as the Bear could be in any of the three revealed land squares. The later that you move there (say, around T49, when you said that he might disappear), the greater the chance that the Bear will not fight us.
POSSIBLE DISCUSSION POINT for BLubmuz' turnset:
If anyone wants to 100% avoid Barbs from spawning in the west, then we'll need to use a 3rd Warrior to do it. There's always the risk that one of our two Fog Busters will die in a fight and then Barbs will start to overrun that area. It doesn't have to be Warrior 3 that goes out there, but the sooner that we put a 3rd Warrior out there, the sooner that we can claim 100% that the western area is ours. We may not want to do so for even Warriors 3, 4, and 5, but perhaps for Warrior 6, since those 3 Warriors will PROBABLY be required in order to properly fog-bust and defend City 3 (if it gets placed towards Zara).
So, please give your opinion on whether you think that 100% fog-busting the west is more important than eastward exploration (that would mean sending Warrior 3 west) and if not, then how important do you think a Barb-free west should rank (City 3 is more important but a fog-free west is more important than City 4, or maybe Cities 3 and 4 are both more important, or whatever else you have to say on the matter).
Dhoomstriker
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I'll leave the exact movements up to you as you play, as you'll have the most up-to-date map intelligence, so don't take any of my comments in regards to Warrior 2's movements as 100% set in stone--as the UP player, you'll have to use additional info that we don't have right now as a factor in your decisions.
You do raise a good point about being able to see across the Lake--I haven't tested that visibility, but if you think that this visibility will help you, then perhaps it is worth coming from the east side of that lake into the Fog Busting 2 position. Really, it depends upon how many fogged squares you will walk next to and how close those squares are to a spot that the Bear could not have been in the previous turn.
For example, if the Bear couldn't have been in the Coast, then a square next to the Coast has a smaller chance of the Bear being in it than a square which is completely surrounded by land. You have to balance this fact by exactly which squares you can really see from "across the Lake."
Then, use your "skip turn" advantage to try and get a feel for where the Bear is or isn't and use probability to reduce the chance of encountering him as much as possible.
The rest is up to you and luck.
Dhoomstriker
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I'm pretty sure that there is a bug in the documentation of BUFFY's unit naming system. BLubmuz is the one who asked about this stuff and received a reply about how to properly name units in this message.
If someone would volunteer to play around with the BUFFY settings for unit naming, and figure out how the proper way to do this naming works, then we can set up a standard value for the whole team to use in place of the DEFAULT naming value, so that we'll consistently get our units coming out as Warrior 1, Warrior 2, Worker 1, Worker 2, etc.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
yes and i got the answer. Still, i note that 3.19.003 has the standard option set in the way i would.
here the info i copyed on a txt.
the string we need is this: ^cnt[n]^
I will surely test, but i can't see how Dehli can grow so fast as you say. It's now @ 3 without any food in the granary (which doen't exists, BTW).
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