SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

I think the paths are almost useless, since anyone can reconstruct them easily...

But, if you like it, here is the screenie with the paths.
Actually, I thought that you were heading straight NW with the 3rd western Warrior, so the paths that you drew really cleared up your intentions to me. Thanks!



I can see the benefits on your proposal to stop our units from time to time to gain knowledge if barbs are around. But we must consider also the need to move fast, if we can consider fast 1 tile/turn.
Okay, well it's the responsibility of the UP player to determine the appropriate level of safety. As long as you are aware of the tactic, then you are as well-equipped in the matter as we can make you. I can't FORCE you to press the Spacebar occasionally, but if you are about to walk into unforested land, consider doing so first, just to buy yourself a bit of safety.


I use this "Spacebar" trick when I don't have an escort for my stolen Workers. I only move them one square at a time and will often "Spacebar" (skip) their next turn, getting them home slower than if they had an escort, but almost always 100% safely home, as "staying in place" helps to spawn-bust.


In any case, if you missed it, i deleted all the foreign units (Zulu and German) and separated the continent, let the Zulu in a small landmass.
I left the French untouched.
Okay, great. I didn't get time to open your saved game, so I did miss that fact. The closer the settings that you have played to the real game, the more useful your experience learned from your practice game will be.


Updating Pathing
I am attaching an updated version of your screenshot, complete with a few suggestions.
Spoiler The Updated Screenshot :
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Forest Regrowth Suggestion
The first suggestions are related to Forest regrowth. Where possible, if you can walk in one square that is relatively "equal" to another square, then try to move to the square that least reduces our chance of Forest regrowth.

What makes two squares "equal"? Well, if they're both in our borders or close to our borders, we'll probably not "reveal" any hidden squares by walking in either square, so that would make them equal in what they reveal (nothing). If both of them can be used equally to get you to your destination square in the same amount of time, then they are equal movement-wise.

Where those squares might not be equal is their chance of a Forest growing there. If you stand in a square where a Forest has a chance of growing, then a Forest won't grow for that turn. It's a minor point, but with a limited number of game turns, and with the squares otherwise being "equal," we might as well maximize our chances for Forest regrowth.

So, on two spots (one for the Red Path and one for the Green Path), I have put a "dark red X" where I'd like you to consider moving to a relatively "equal" square, instead of the one that you had indicated.

For example, on the Green Path, you had us walking on a Plains square that was surrounded horizontally and vertically by 3 Forests. That square has one of the highest chances possible of a Forest growing there, but that Forest won't grow on any turn that we walk there with a unit. By instead moving to the square 1N of that Plains square, which is a Plains Forest square, we allow for the Forest to grow for that turn on the Plains square. Since a Forest can't grow overtop of an already existing Forest, we don't "waste" a chance for the Forest to grow when we walk on the Plains Forest square.

Now, if the squares aren't equal, don't both going "out of your way" in order to help increase Forest regrowth--it's not worth our while. Only when the movement between two different squares is relatively equal to each other should this consideration come into play



Southern Coast Suggestion
I'd rather that we follow the Coast with our explorer, where possible. Not only do we allow for the chance of spotting Seafood Resources, is it safer navigating with Coast on one or two sides of our exploring Warriors, as no Barb units that can spawn on the Coast can attack and kill our exploring Warriors.

The Yellow Path could be used to explore the inland squares before the Settler fully gets there.

If we skip exploring the Coast, then we won't know if we "just" missed a nice Fish Resource in our settled city.


Western Exploration Suggestion
I marked off the Fog-busting areas in Pink of where you will have us placing the 3 western Warriors.

Once we have those 3 Warriors in place, we can move those warriors to the west a bit (maybe after waiting for 2-3 turns in place, just to make sure that no Barbs recently spawned just as our Fog-busters were getting into place). We'll move west (say, after 2-3 squares) at the same time with all 3 Warriors, so that they will help to fog-bust for each other. We'll only leave two small gaps in coverage, for the gain of being able to see the hidden squares off of the western coast. Moving the Warriors immediately back to where you have them in our screenshot would be our next moves.


I realize that these western-exploration movements WILL PROBABLY occur in the next turnset, but they might occur in your turnset if instead of exploring to the north-east and north, our 3rd fog-buster instead heads straight NW. We MIGHT want to do so if the team feels that stopping Barb Cities from spawning is MORE IMPORTANT than scouting the land to the north. I think that most of us will be okay with taking the risk of a Barb City spawning in that small period of time if it means being able to see more of the northern squares--it is a calculated risk. However, if someone does not feel comfortable taking that risk, then they should speak up and let us know that they'd rather have our next warrior go straight NW to its western fog-busting position.
 

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If we're going to go to this effort, why not switch to Slavery and whip on the same turn. That way, we'll be running Slavery with a smaller popultion = smaller cost. Then switch back out of Slavery 5 turns later.
Thank you for that point. As you have outlined, the decision will not be as easily decided as a decision made on paper.

What you say may or may not work in our favour. A Test Game would let us know for certain.

If we're whipping in our capitol, we'll be regrowing the population quickly. If we whip at the proper time, we'll whip on the turn just before we grow our city, meaning that we'll immediately regain at least 1 of the whipped population points.

A city settled further away may or may not cost us even more in Maintenance than will 2 citizens in our capitol.

There are a lot of factors to take into account, so a Test Game that will accurately tell us Maintenance costs can definitely give us the answer. It is also possible that there will be "no better method" in terms of Maintenance, but if we can save a Gold per turn here or there for no additional cost to our empire, why not run the Test Game in order to find out?
 
No, I never saw this message. But, I find it strange that he wouldn't have two cities by now... I have seen this message in my other games, so I know that I have Buffy set up properly.
Zara currently has one city.

Please look at the attached screenshot to see how you can tell by looking at the Scores area at the bottom right of your main Civ 4 screen.

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I also suppose we're in a smaller continent than the one in our test, since we met only him. This would probably reduce the chances of barb cities spawning, since it's related with the % of unclaimed map and the % of fogbusted map related to the landmass. This can be wrong if those % are related to the overall land.
While I haven't looked through the SDK for the related code, I can say from anecdotal evidence (i.e. playing a lot of games) that unclaimed land is calculated map-wide and Barb spawning and Barb City spawning isn't isolated to a particular land mass. Even what Mitchum said--about killing a Barb on one continent and another appearing on a different continent would support this point. Further, the Lazy Programmer Theory would argue in favour of this point being true.


- we don't know if he already settled more cities
We at least know this point. However, Zara could be one turn away from settling City #2--we can't know that fact at this point.


From here my proposal to build only the already planned warrior in Dehli, send him NE and in CCW turn have him in position (1 SW of stone) by turn 80.
I just wanted to say that this idea was a really innovative one and I like your creative approach of helping to scout a bit while also meeting our western fog-busting goal. The idea still runs counter to your worries about a Barb City spawning in the west (i.e. we delay getting our 3rd western fog-buster in place), but that said, it is a reasonable risk to take, since the west is currently MOSTLY fog-busted.


Since we decided i stop once BW is researched, and i can see i'm maybe too prudent, if we decide to go in this way, i'll update my PPP accordingly.
I don't mind if you want to keep playing after Bronze Working comes in, but I would appreciate it if you stop at the point that it does come in and try to get feedback from most of the team before proceeding with the rest of your turnset. Or just stop there. Whichever works for you.


Note that I'll be travelling soon, so I will be temporarily away from the thread, but traveling only takes part of a day--just don't expect immediate replies out of me, as I'll be busy packing and getting ready to travel.
 
I don't understand why going after the Barb cities will mean we have to go against Zara...

We won't HAVE to fight Zara under those conditions, but there is a greater opportunity cost if we don't continue to use the army in which we invested our Hammers. Preferably, we'll be able to focus our Hammers on Cultural buildings (for a Cultural Victory) or on Economic buildings (for a Diplomatic victory). If we instead spend those Hammers on an army, I'd hope to see as much value gained out of those invested Hammers as possible.
 
Wrong.
If we agree on a 3rd fogbuster, Dehli needs to insert another warrior before the settler.

Edit:
unless the warrior we'll send NE will turns pretty quickly CCW and reachs SW of stone before Turn 80.
Just to clarify, by sending our 4th Warrior on the Red Path that your screenshot indicated (i.e. north-east then west then south-west to fog-bust), your claim is that we will not be building two Warriors in a row in Delhi, correct? We will complete the 4th Warrior and then continue immediately on to building Settler 3 in Delhi, right?


If so, then our easternmost Warrior (the Green Path Warrior) might even start to go north-west for a bit and then back west or south-west to uncover more hidden squares, around the time that Bronze Working is in, in order to help scout a little bit north of the already-scouted-Coast, meeting up with the Yellow Path Warrior around the time that we need to figure out exactly where the settler will sit in the east. This Green Path Warrior movement may or may not happen after your turnset--you can always start to "loop back" with the Green Path Warrior if you see a Forest/Hills square to walk onto that is "inland from the Coast" and you feel that the time is right to do so (such as if you found a Seafood Resource and you wanted to scout for additional land Resources, or if you do end up playing past Bronze Working and feel that we'll go too far if you keep going east).
 
Zara currently has one city.

Please look at the attached screenshot to see how you can tell by looking at the Scores area at the bottom right of your main Civ 4 screen.

Is there something that explains what all of the info is in the scores area? I know what most of it is, but not all of it. I never knew that the final number indicated the number of cities, for example.
 
While I haven't looked through the SDK for the related code, I can say from anecdotal evidence (i.e. playing a lot of games) that unclaimed land is calculated map-wide and Barb spawning and Barb City spawning isn't isolated to a particular land mass. Even what Mitchum said--about killing a Barb on one continent and another appearing on a different continent would support this point. Further, the Lazy Programmer Theory would argue in favour of this point being true.

I think the size of the landmass does matter. In my testing, I would typically go into WB and delete all of the barbs on the map so that they would all spawn the next turn. This would quickly tell me if I had a spawnable tile in my test without having to hit end turn 100 times waiting for barbs to be killed. When going into WB, one of the smaller islands never had a barb. One that was just a bit bigger always had one barb.

I just wanted to say that this idea was a really innovative one and I like your creative approach of helping to scout a bit while also meeting our western fog-busting goal. The idea still runs counter to your worries about a Barb City spawning in the west (i.e. we delay getting our 3rd western fog-buster in place), but that said, it is a reasonable risk to take, since the west is currently MOSTLY fog-busted.

I agree that this is the best approach to take. I'd like to hook up Stone soon because I think that the teams that don't build the 'Mids in this game will be at a disadvantage. This scouting north will allow us to find the best location for Stone (city by the stone).

I agree that the risk is quite small of barbs spawing. In my testing, I did everything possible to force barbs to re-spawn and it took many turns of deleting all of the barbs to get one to spawn when I only had 1 or 2 tiles available for them. Since we only have 2 or 3 tiles (can't remember), as long as barbs aren't being killed left and right, we should be fine... as long as we don't get a barb in the initial spawing phase which should happen any turn (remember, I just killed a lion on T60).

Note that I never saw a barb city spawn in my testing.
 
Just to clarify, by sending our 4th Warrior on the Red Path that your screenshot indicated (i.e. north-east then west then south-west to fog-bust), your claim is that we will not be building two Warriors in a row in Delhi, correct? We will complete the 4th Warrior and then continue immediately on to building Settler 3 in Delhi, right?

If so, then our easternmost Warrior (the Green Path Warrior) might even start to go north-west for a bit and then back west or south-west to uncover more hidden squares
Yes, that is the plan. But the green-path-warrior must follow that path. Also, your editing of that path, aside the better use of the yellow line inside our borders, is not of much use, since we don't actually know the land East.
More, your blue moves, are not inside my TS, so i avoid to discuss them now.

Is there something that explains what all of the info is in the scores area? I know what most of it is, but not all of it. I never knew that the final number indicated the number of cities, for example.
First, you can even customize those info in the appropriate tab of BUFFY. But that info can be incorrect, since if you play an AW game, for instance, you can see only the number of cities you have unfogged. Once you have OB with a Civ, or at least you're in peace, you should be able to have the correct info about the number of cities.

This said, it's probably true that Zara is only with his Capital. Sure, he can already have a settler in position.

Note that I never saw a barb city spawn in my testing.
I did, and i'm concerned by this, but we probably found a solution.
 
OK, since all the points are clear, this is
My PPP until turn 72-73, build 03 (final):

turn 60 situation: 2 cities (size 3/size 1), 1 FWorker, 2 warriors (both fogbusting W)

t61: Judaism founded in Silverado, Dehli size 4.
start BW, research to 0
t62: 21 in the bank, BW will arrive in 10 (-2g/t) note: this won't change 'til the end of my TS
t63: both warriors completed (3+4), the one from Dehli will follow the Red path, the one from Silverado the yellow/green path
Silverado builds another, Dehli settler in 12
the exp. borders of Silverado help to fogbust S of the pig's lake
t65: the mine is completed, move citizen there - settler 1 turn early, +1C
t66: worker re-start farming
t69: warrior (5) from Silverado, heads E, following his mate, wait for the settler inside our borders to avoid maintenance cost (we have 4 units outside borders)
t71: farm completed, move citizen on the farm
t72: BW in, start PH, research to 0 stop here or next turn
t73: stop, if not already done
I'll stop on turn 72 or 73, unless major events will stop me.

We'll have: Dehli size4, 1 settler heading E, 3 warriors fogbusting W, 1 just built, 1 scouting E, 1 waiting for the settler NE (6 total).

Unless someone asks me to hold, i'll play in some 11-12 hours from now.
 
If so, then our easternmost Warrior (the Green Path Warrior) might even start to go north-west for a bit and then back west or south-west to uncover more hidden squares
Yes, that is the plan. But the green-path-warrior must follow that path.
Just to clarify my now-out-of-context statement, I was referring to the time that Bronze Working is complete for the Green Path Warrior to "loop around" a bit to the NW and then back to the west or south-west--depending upon how far NW you go.

I raised this point in case it was decided that you would play on past Bronze Working. You're going 6 squares east past our eastern cultural border in your screenshot, so I felt that around that distance was about as far as we needed to go (the distance that you can go up until Bronze Working comes in) is about as far east as we want to go for now. That was all I was saying there.


Coast vs Non-coast
What's not clear is if you will be following the Coast. I would strongly encourage it, as otherwise, we have to later send ANOTHER Warrior almost directly on the same path, just to uncover our Seafood Resources. That kind of exploration is WASTEFUL. We don't have time for extra exploration.

That said, if we have absolutely no intention of settling on the Coast (I don't see why we would take this stance, but if it were the case), then I would suggest sending the Green Path Warrior farther away from the Coast, so that he is only exploring squares that we would get as part of an "inland" city. There's no point exploring the worst of both worlds, by revealing the edges of the Coast but not all of the water squares--either explore along the Coast or explore far inland.

My suggestion is to explore the Coast. While doing so, please don't blindly follow the Coast. Instead, be sure to take the following advice into account:
As for the Coastal exploration, here's a tip to improve your gameplay, if you have the following layout:
C1 C2 C3
L1 L2 L3
L4 L5 L6

where C = Coast and L = Land

and where you are at L3 and plan to uncover hidden squares by walking towards L1, then you're better off going from L3 to L5 to L1, instead of L3 to L2 to L1, as L2 won't reveal any new water area, but moving to L5 gains us free exploration.


If people don't want to explore the Coast, then I suggest a path that runs TWO SQUARES NORTH of BLubmuz' original Green Path, so that a later Warrior exploring along the Coast will not overlap the later exploration by a Coast-explorer.


BLubmuz, if you do not want to explore along the Coast with what we are now calling Warrior 4 (our 5th Warrior), then please let us know and set up a voting poll. My vote goes for the Coastal exploration, as a Seafood Resource is always going to give you Food and Food is the basis for a reasonable city site.



Also, your editing of that path, aside the better use of the yellow line inside our borders
The yellow line was something that you drew. I did not add it to the map.

In looking at your saved game from Turn 74, 2150 BC, the yellow line ends at the location of Warrior 5, who was built in Silverado. I don't understand why the yellow line was drawn starting from Delhi--perhaps it was a minor error made when you quickly added lines to the map.


JUST TO BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, do you understand the minor modifications that I made to the paths of the Green Path Warrior and Red Path Warrior right around the edges of our cultural borders, for the purposes of avoiding the disruption of Forest regrowth? The changes denoted by the dark red letter Xs?

The remainder of the Green Path, where I scratched it out and redrew it along the Coast, is discussed in the Coast vs Non-coast point above.



More, your blue moves, are not inside my TS, so i avoid to discuss them now.
IF we are all in agreement not to immediately fog-bust to the west with our 4th Warrior (who is being called Warrior 3 in your saved game), AND if you do not play any turns after Bronze Working, then yes, this point is true. Otherwise, it was worth saying, in case either of those two points did not turn out to be true.


First, you can even customize those info in the appropriate tab of BUFFY. But that info can be incorrect, since if you play an AW game, for instance, you can see only the number of cities you have unfogged. Once you have OB with a Civ, or at least you're in peace, you should be able to have the correct info about the number of cities.
If Zara has a different number of cities that we do not "know about," the number will turn to a teal colour instead of a white colour. So, he thus only has 1 city now. At least, that's my understanding of how those numbers work.


I did, and i'm concerned by this, but we probably found a solution.
It's not really a solution. We still take a risk of a Barb City spawning to the west. The best way to prevent it would be to give up a lot of our valuable northern exploration with Warrior 3 (our 4th Warrior), while the team seems to want to explore there in favour of western fog-busting. I, too, want to explore the northern path, but we must all realize that we take a risk of a Barb City spawning to the west, so no one should be unexpectedly surprised later if a Barb City does appear there--you can be upset about a Barb City appearing, just don't go claiming that you thought it couldn't happen, because, as BLubz' testing proved, it can happen.
 
t63: both warriors completed (3+4), the one from Dehli will follow the Red path
Please follow my minor modification to the Red Path unless you want to discuss why we shouldn't do so.

, the one from Silverado the yellow/green path
The Green path, with modifications of the Red X, plus either going more north of it by 2 squares or south of it along the Coast. Please don't follow the Green Path's path outside of our borders, as that scouting is the worst-of-two-worlds' of scouting, halfway between scouting inland and properly scouting the Coast.

The yellow path was for Warrior 5 (our 6th Warrior--the 2nd Warrior built in Silverado) and has nothing to do with either Warrior 3 or Warrior 4.


t69: warrior (5) from Silverado, heads E, following his mate
Let's have him do the opposite of what Warrior 4 did.

If Warrior 4 follows the Coast, then go farther inland (2 squares north of BLubmuz' Green Path) with Warrior 5. If Warrior 4 goes farther north (2 squares north of BLubmuz' Green Path), then have Warrior 5 follow the Coast. Cool?


We'll have: Dehli size4, 1 settler heading E, 3 warriors fogbusting W, 1 just built, 1 scouting E, 1 waiting for the settler NE (6 total).
Just so that it is clear for everyone, he is saying that we will build 3 Warriors in a row from Silverado. I'm fine with that.


Unless someone asks me to hold, i'll play in some 11-12 hours from now.
Unless you plan to follow the Coast using my altered Green Path
Spoiler Yes, it is not an exact path as the squares are hidden :
Yes, you can't follow the altered Green Path exactly, since the hidden squares probably won't match the real game's hidden squares, but the general idea is there--stick to the Coast except where you have a long straight-stretch of Coast where you can temporarily explore away from the Coast for one turn and then to back to the Coast, for "free exploration a bit to the north of the Coast")
, then we must have a vote before you can proceed.


My suggestion would be to vote on:
a) Explore along the Coast with Warrior 4 and explore 2 squares to the north of BLubmuz' Green Path with Warrior 5
b) Explore 2 squares to the north of BLubmuz' Green Path with Warrior 4 and explore along the Coast with Warrior 5
c) Come up with another option for Warrior 4 that invalidates previous votes and forces a re-vote on the new voting poll

I vote for option a).


EDIT: I will be AFK for the next 10 hours, so if you're confused about any of the points that I have made, please wait for either someone else to clarify them for you or else wait for me to get back and clarify them for you.
 
My suggestion would be to vote on:
a) Explore along the Coast with Warrior 4 and explore 2 squares to the north of BLubmuz' Green Path with Warrior 5
b) Explore 2 squares to the north of BLubmuz' Green Path with Warrior 4 and explore along the Coast with Warrior 5
c) Come up with another option for Warrior 4 that invalidates previous votes and forces a re-vote on the new voting poll

I vote for option a).

I would prefer scouting along the coast as well. This reveals sea food and is also a bit safer since barbs cannot attack from all directions.

So, Silverado will build 3 warriors in a row. Does settler 3 complete on your last turn? If not, what are you building after the settler?

EDIT: I'm okay with you playing today.
 
No need to vote. If i can i will go along the coast and i always use a zig-zag path while exploring. Of course, if along the coast is flat and unforested terrain, i'll prefer forested or at least hills. If i'm right with my guess on Aksum's placement, i probably do not need to go far as i went in the test. Thus, if i can walk along the coast i can unfog later the inland tiles. Or vice versa, depends from the terrain.

Unit names: i'm referring to the warriors as they are named in the save. I think that in this way the player after me can better understand what i did, as anyone lookin' to the save. Being this a test or the real game.

The goal for that "scout" is to reveal enough terrain to put us in position to decide if or where to settle East.

I'll stop once the settler is complete. Also, i'll stop to the beginning of a turn, as i already said.
 
One last thing, since warrior 1 will be fog-busting from the marble shortly, don't give him the Woody I promotion unless he needs it. Be sure to look at him each turn to make sure no barb is near him...
 
One last thing, since warrior 1 will be fog-busting from the marble shortly, don't give him the Woody I promotion unless he needs it. Be sure to look at him each turn to make sure no barb is near him...
Needless to say ;)

Playing now...
 
OK, done.
Pretty uneventful, if not for 2 barb warriors around. One slowed me on moving E, but is now dead, the other is still alive and targeting our warrior. This is walkin' to his target spot, and is now on a forest.

Spoiler :
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The victorius warrior is now healing on a forest near Ethiopian borders.
An Ethiopian scout helped to fogbust W, coming from NE.

We have copper in Dehli's BFC! A worker is ready to mine it, it's on GL.

This is the situation i left:

Spoiler :
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The autolog... sorry i forgot to switch from html to txt :blush: anyway, not much to read.

No more saves in the TS report!

as you can see, not a great land E, nor NE. We'll have to discuss a lot, i presume.

Zara is still with one city, at least in the scoreboard and i never seen messages about cities founded, so we're lookin' at Aksum's borders.
 
Nice work, captain!!


We have copper in Dehli's BFC! A worker is ready to mine it, it's on GL.

So those teams that settled on the plains hill will have to settle a pretty weak city in order to work the copper. I think out capital (+copper - silver) will be better long term.

as you can see, not a great land E, nor NE. We'll have to discuss a lot, i presume.

Zara is still with one city, at least in the scoreboard and i never seen messages about cities founded, so we're lookin' at Aksum's borders.

Wow, it looks like a pretty small continent. I'd like to settle Stone, but it may be better to settle a city to capture the cow and the wheat, blocking off a bit more of the continent.

We may also need to settle a city to the south east between us and Zara. Without knowing what sea food resources are down there, it will be hard to settle it now though. With the warrior where he is, no barbs should spawn between us and Zara. I wonder if it is save to have him take 2 steps south to see the coast...

I'll start working on an updated test save.
 
I'm worried about your link directly to our real save. I'd hate for someone to download it and play it like it's a test game. Can you remove the link? Players who want to download the real save can go to the submission page to get it directly... At least if you go there yourself, it will be clear that you're getting the real save.
 
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