I found that starting mids after stone connected won't delay the mids completion if we want 1375 BC date in need of 5 forests, while it make difference if we accept the 1325 BC with 4 forests.
SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I found that starting mids after stone connected won't delay the mids completion if we want 1375 BC date in need of 5 forests, while it make difference if we accept the 1325 BC with 4 forests.
I would be astonished if he puts the exact slider and EP target weights to accumulate exactly 4EP/turn on us.
I tried a game just now and certainly there will be a lot of thing to discuss. To give you some clues, for example:
1. It's possible to advance the settler by 1 turn by using the corn in the cap.
2. Bombay can climb up to 3 pop quickly with the same corn.
3. Whipping the Chariot can save 1 tree.
Await your detailed plan.
I won't be surprised. Jus may has more than 1 AI in his continent.
1. the earlier settler only makes negative gain since workers won't be ready at that time.
2. Delhi need two corns all the time and Delhi should get the 1st priority for growth since whipping of granary and lib is needed soon.
3. I addressed the issue and it seems everyone agree on that.
Plan for next 15 turns -- FW (faster worker)
Tech path -- Masonry->Fishing->Sailing->Math
T88 -- GS for academy, Research 100%, 4FW I (irrigate) FP
T89 -- Delhi (lib), Vij (Artist to FP, anticipating religion autospread), FW 1W C&C (Chop and Cancel)
T90 -- 4FW to stone and Q (Build quarry)
T92 -- Delhi (Mids), Vij (1 or 2 artists for culture pop next turn)
T93 -- Vij works on 2FP, 3FW to cow and P (pasture), 1FW to Delhi 2N and C
T94 -- Vij (1 citizen works on improved Cow)
T95 -- Delhi FW 1S and C, Vij (LH) 3FW to Marble and Q
T96 -- Vij 3rd citizen take Horse and Bombay takes FP
T97 -- Settler out to 1SW of Pig, Bombay (Worker), Delhi (remove 1 Sci to mine)
T98 -- Delhi (Another sci to mine), Vij 3FW to 2S of Vij I & C
T99 -- Settle whatever 2nd GP, Switch to slavery and whip chariot in Delhi, 6th citizen on 3F1C tile. Delhi FW 1SW R (road) & C. Pat found (WB on Pig tile), 3FW to Pig and P
T100 -- Delhi FW 1SW and C
T101 -- 3FW 1NE1NE I & C
T102 -- 3FW 1NW C
T103 -- 1FW to 2N forest C, 2FW move toward Delhi
Edit: The issue of whipping GLH is for the next set. I keep my vote on not whipping it since IMO 1100BC is pretty safe.
Tech path -- Masonry->Fishing->Sailing->Math
T88 -- GS for academy, Research 100%, 4FW I (irrigate) FP
T89 -- Delhi (lib), Vij (Artist to FP, anticipating religion autospread), FW 1W C&C (Chop and Cancel)
T90 -- 4FW to stone and Q (Build quarry)
T92 -- Delhi (Mids), Vij (1 or 2 artists for culture pop next turn)
T93 -- Vij works on 2FP, 3FW to cow and P (pasture), 1FW to Delhi 2N and C
T94 -- Vij (1 citizen works on improved Cow)
T95 -- Delhi FW 1S and C, Vij (LH) 3FW to Marble and Q
T96 -- Vij 3rd citizen take Horse and Bombay takes FP
T97 -- Settler out to 1SW of Pig, Bombay (Worker), Delhi (remove 1 Sci to mine)
T98 -- Delhi (Another sci to mine), Vij 3FW to 2S of Vij I & C
T99 -- Settle whatever 2nd GP, Switch to slavery and whip chariot in Delhi, 6th citizen on 3F1C tile. Delhi FW 1SW R (road) & C. Pat found (WB on Pig tile), 3FW to Pig and P
T100 -- Delhi FW 1SW and C
T101 -- 3FW 1NE1NE I & C
T102 -- 3FW 1NW C
T103 -- 1FW to 2N forest C, 2FW move toward Delhi
Edit: The issue of whipping GLH is for the next set. I keep my vote on not whipping it since IMO 1100BC is pretty safe.
I mentioned Cow in case that majority want another Fish in BFC. Obviously we all agree on working the pig tile as soon as possible.
-Switching to Pyramids now was meant as the overflow from finishing Pyramids is double thanks to stone, putting more hammers in the library. It really doesn't change much however where we put the hammers, but I think we might gain a few overall by starting Pyramids on t90. The completion date for library will be very similar in either case but we might just get some more overflow I think.
-Agree on letting the settler finish naturally. I even tried chopping him out and the result is 1t faster workboat but a big hit on research (slowing down Pottery).
-Praying for a religious spread in Vijay as it hastens GLH by 1 turn compared to no spread!
A few comments:
t89
I'd move the warrior SE to fogbust the Pali site. I had a nasty barb city spawn there in one test. It opens up three more tiles for barb spawns but that's perhaps good as it might be the difference in HE or no HE (just pray for no spear!).
Alternatively we could have the extra FW irrigate 1 turn 2S of Vijay since we're putting 3 farm turns there later.
t98
?West Warrior can go back NW to fogbust?
t101
We need a road on pigs. Once all forests are gone in Vijay, it starts losing 1
/turn -- unless we trade the extra corn for health resource.
Otherwise everything looks perfect.
-Agree on letting the settler finish naturally. I even tried chopping him out and the result is 1t faster workboat but a big hit on research (slowing down Pottery).
-Praying for a religious spread in Vijay as it hastens GLH by 1 turn compared to no spread!
A few comments:
t89
I'd move the warrior SE to fogbust the Pali site. I had a nasty barb city spawn there in one test. It opens up three more tiles for barb spawns but that's perhaps good as it might be the difference in HE or no HE (just pray for no spear!).
Alternatively we could have the extra FW irrigate 1 turn 2S of Vijay since we're putting 3 farm turns there later.
t98
?West Warrior can go back NW to fogbust?
t101
We need a road on pigs. Once all forests are gone in Vijay, it starts losing 1
/turn -- unless we trade the extra corn for health resource.Otherwise everything looks perfect.
The stone bonus won't go with overflow.
Forgot to mention about Corn<->Clam trade, so I don't have health problem in Vij. Pig can be connected later. Who do you want to trade with?
I did not mention about the warrior move since I'll leave the barbarian warriors for our 6xp warrior and chariot, so the SW warrior will move 1NW at T88.
Forgot to mention about Corn<->Clam trade, so I don't have health problem in Vij. Pig can be connected later. Who do you want to trade with?
I did not mention about the warrior move since I'll leave the barbarian warriors for our 6xp warrior and chariot, so the SW warrior will move 1NW at T88.
Good idea on the warrior.
We can get Zara to Friendly pretty easily if Confu spreads to him (+8 iIrc) with OB and his natural disposition. Trading resources will make it faster to backfill techs we lack.
I'll double check the pyramids overflow... The overflow comes from the production total, no?
One last thing: need to check if working fp on t94 allows 1 more turn of working marble on GLH.
We can get Zara to Friendly pretty easily if Confu spreads to him (+8 iIrc) with OB and his natural disposition. Trading resources will make it faster to backfill techs we lack.
I'll double check the pyramids overflow... The overflow comes from the production total, no?
One last thing: need to check if working fp on t94 allows 1 more turn of working marble on GLH.
dingding
Prince
Duck, I think you can plan it out till the Pyramid. That's only a few more turns ahead.
Two things in your plan to mention:
1.
For those who want to whip the GLH, here we have an option: work on the cow and switch the production to an Axe.
An Axe is 52h and the production at this turn is 4h. So we can whip 2 pop into this Axe later and get 50 overflow into GLH, which is equal to whipping 2 pop into GLH directly, just delaying 1 turn (1125BC) and getting a free Axe. Axe is necessary for our intercontinental expansion.
However, the same with Duck, I'm not convinced that whipping the GLH is necessary.
2.
Is the fifth worker urgent? I don't think so.
Can we put some hammers on ToA at this time, for a bonus money from the Marble and the growth of Bombay?
There is another hill in Bombay, on which one more pop can work. Moreover, it'll be harder and harder to find a good occasion for a pop growth in Bombay.
Two things in your plan to mention:
1.
For those who want to whip the GLH, here we have an option: work on the cow and switch the production to an Axe.
An Axe is 52h and the production at this turn is 4h. So we can whip 2 pop into this Axe later and get 50 overflow into GLH, which is equal to whipping 2 pop into GLH directly, just delaying 1 turn (1125BC) and getting a free Axe. Axe is necessary for our intercontinental expansion.
However, the same with Duck, I'm not convinced that whipping the GLH is necessary.
2.
Is the fifth worker urgent? I don't think so.
Can we put some hammers on ToA at this time, for a bonus money from the Marble and the growth of Bombay?
There is another hill in Bombay, on which one more pop can work. Moreover, it'll be harder and harder to find a good occasion for a pop growth in Bombay.
dingding
Prince
About the warriors' move:
The one in NW should stay the position until the Chariot is out. Then he can fogbust 1N2W.
The one in NE can play Catch-me-if-you-can with barbarians, or fortify in the forest hill if there are not two Bar Archers together.
The one in NW should lighten Pata's spot. (Duck mentioned it's gonna NW at T88? Really? What if it pops an archer at that spot?)
BTW I think it's too late to leave barbarians to pop Warriors, which our WII warrior can easily handle. The chance for unlocking the HE is slim by him, I would prefer to reduce the potential risk.
About Pyramid's overflow with stone:
IIRC, they fixed the mechanism in 3.19. All the overflow will be free from resource/trait bonus if there is one.
The one in NW should stay the position until the Chariot is out. Then he can fogbust 1N2W.
The one in NE can play Catch-me-if-you-can with barbarians, or fortify in the forest hill if there are not two Bar Archers together.
The one in NW should lighten Pata's spot. (Duck mentioned it's gonna NW at T88? Really? What if it pops an archer at that spot?)
BTW I think it's too late to leave barbarians to pop Warriors, which our WII warrior can easily handle. The chance for unlocking the HE is slim by him, I would prefer to reduce the potential risk.
About Pyramid's overflow with stone:
IIRC, they fixed the mechanism in 3.19. All the overflow will be free from resource/trait bonus if there is one.
Worker is not urgent, but settlers are urgent. Another worker will help to chop all the forests around Bombay to produce 2 settlers quickly. Instead of growing Bombay to size 3 and some cash which probably cannot be claimed before CS, I'd rather let Bombay keep pumping settlers at size 2.
The chance of unlocking HE is 50% with one battle.
Not decent but not slim.Good point on the Pali warrior... there are good chances the warrior will follow us which frees up the extreme southwest tip of the continent for something so spawn (archer/spear/city).
In any case, we risk something spawning in the area which could cause us headaches. I think we have time for the Chariot to be done before barbs start entering our borders so like I had said, probably best to fogbust the Pali area.
You're right on overflow... staying on Library then is fine.
Won't the Axe decay if we wait to whip it all that time? It's going to lose a few hammers for sure.
EDIT: it loses 4 hammers before it's ready to whip. As a result, we'd need to add another turn of building the Axe, i.e. start on t92 (or whenever SH is completed I guess, whichever is earlier).
I like this option, it's a good compromise between the 2 options and an Axe could be useful.
~~~
The WII warrior needs to win 4 more fights iIrc for level 4... not looking too brightly there
I like the plan. If you can trade for health, I guess road on pigs can wait.
I think I aggree on the worker to chop out settlers plan as well.
I'll be off for today, so I'll say right now that I aggree with this plan given your discussion. I'll trust your warrior movements
If we want to build the axe to whip it into GLH and hammers don't decay too much, I don't mind that... but if it leads to us saving all of 1 turn to natural build, there's not that much point. Reason I want 1150 rather than 1100 or 1075 for GLH is that I've seen it built too many times in the 1150-1100 range, so the 2 turns could end up being really important to us. If putting a few hammers into the axe now won't cost us anything for the natural build date (and hammers don't decay) , I don't mind doing that for 1 turn.
If my vote on a plan is neccessary, send me a PM, and I'll get to it sometime in the next 5-8 hours.
I think I aggree on the worker to chop out settlers plan as well.
I'll be off for today, so I'll say right now that I aggree with this plan given your discussion. I'll trust your warrior movements
If we want to build the axe to whip it into GLH and hammers don't decay too much, I don't mind that... but if it leads to us saving all of 1 turn to natural build, there's not that much point. Reason I want 1150 rather than 1100 or 1075 for GLH is that I've seen it built too many times in the 1150-1100 range, so the 2 turns could end up being really important to us. If putting a few hammers into the axe now won't cost us anything for the natural build date (and hammers don't decay) , I don't mind doing that for 1 turn.
If my vote on a plan is neccessary, send me a PM, and I'll get to it sometime in the next 5-8 hours.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Good work ! I like the plan and agree with most of what has been said.
Just wondering about this :
But the immediate profit of a prophet is much higher in Vijay.
About whipping the GLH :
I would feel bad about it. As soon as our wonders will be done, the priority will be to pump some settlers/workers, right ?
Delhi will need infra. Pataliputra will need to grow. Bombay is decent to build workers but needs to grow to efficiently build settlers. That makes Vijay our best settlers producing city.
We can watch Justinian's number of cities if we're worried he builds the GLH.
Just wondering about this :
Wouldn't you settle a prophet in Vijay ? It wouldn't benefit from bureaucracy, right... Which won't come in too long, right... I guess that's what you have in mind for settling it in Delhi.
But the immediate profit of a prophet is much higher in Vijay.
About whipping the GLH :
I would feel bad about it. As soon as our wonders will be done, the priority will be to pump some settlers/workers, right ?
Delhi will need infra. Pataliputra will need to grow. Bombay is decent to build workers but needs to grow to efficiently build settlers. That makes Vijay our best settlers producing city.
We can watch Justinian's number of cities if we're worried he builds the GLH.
EDIT: it loses 4 hammers before it's ready to whip. As a result, we'd need to add another turn of building the Axe, i.e. start on t92 (or whenever SH is completed I guess, whichever is earlier).
I like this option, it's a good compromise between the 2 options and an Axe could be useful.
~~~
The WII warrior needs to win 4 more fights iIrc for level 4... not looking too brightly there
I tried to whip a temple in Vij and it only accelerate GLH by 1 turn. Have not tried an Axe, but I don't like this plan, for the same reason as temple whipping, Axe is close to useless if our chariot can win his 1st battle.
It seems like you did not get this.
Don't be scared.
Settling in Vijay isn't really helpful:
-we lose 1 turn of settled GP (5 gold, 2 hammers - 4 because of Stone)
-With Representation around the corner, Academy and library in Delhi makes it more interesting to settle there.
It does help with GLH production a bit yes but after that it's pretty useless.
I will repeat it again:
I would prefer not to whip GLH, but looking at the map we have, I suspect there are several coastal capitals. In the test map there are only 2 coastal capitals yet quite a few times GLH has gone between 1150-1100BC as Bugg123 said.
Right now we're looking at
-1075BC GLH with no religion spread, no whip
-1125BC GLH with no religion spread but whip (Axe/GLH itself)
-1100BC GLH with religion spread, no whip
-1150BC GLH with religion spread but whip (Axe/GLH itself)
Around 50% of the time Zara attempts GLH. It's a good thing he went to IW however which makes him less of a contender. We have no info on Justinian other than he has Sailing and maybe Constantinople size (can't remember if it's in top 5 cities). And we have no info on any of the other leaders period.
We can decide next round how to proceed... for all I know we might get a forest spread which means 1175BC GLH with no whip. The only time I managed to get an Emperor AI to get a faster GLH was with a seriously cooked capital (double gems, bunch of food and production Roosevelt). However it's not too far-fetched for them to get it 1150-1100BC... losing on GLH would plain suck.
Vijay's next build queue is a workboat or 2 and probably a galley after to settle the islands... it can grow while building those and start on settlers after.
-we lose 1 turn of settled GP (5 gold, 2 hammers - 4 because of Stone)
-With Representation around the corner, Academy and library in Delhi makes it more interesting to settle there.
It does help with GLH production a bit yes but after that it's pretty useless.
I will repeat it again:
I would prefer not to whip GLH, but looking at the map we have, I suspect there are several coastal capitals. In the test map there are only 2 coastal capitals yet quite a few times GLH has gone between 1150-1100BC as Bugg123 said.
Right now we're looking at
-1075BC GLH with no religion spread, no whip
-1125BC GLH with no religion spread but whip (Axe/GLH itself)
-1100BC GLH with religion spread, no whip
-1150BC GLH with religion spread but whip (Axe/GLH itself)
Around 50% of the time Zara attempts GLH. It's a good thing he went to IW however which makes him less of a contender. We have no info on Justinian other than he has Sailing and maybe Constantinople size (can't remember if it's in top 5 cities). And we have no info on any of the other leaders period.
We can decide next round how to proceed... for all I know we might get a forest spread which means 1175BC GLH with no whip. The only time I managed to get an Emperor AI to get a faster GLH was with a seriously cooked capital (double gems, bunch of food and production Roosevelt). However it's not too far-fetched for them to get it 1150-1100BC... losing on GLH would plain suck.
Vijay's next build queue is a workboat or 2 and probably a galley after to settle the islands... it can grow while building those and start on settlers after.
Yes, hammers get boost from bureaucracy.
There are more.
1. Delhi will get more benefit from the extra hammer later to get infrastructures and wonders faster.
2. GPriest will also produce more cash in capital from earlier cash multiplier. Settled in Vij only makes GLH 1 turn faster.
3. After representation being available, the 3 beakers get multipliers from academy and early lib as well
Settling in Vij only makes GLH 1 turn earlier.
Axe whip saves 2 turns as I posted. Granted it's not overwhelming but it could be the difference between GLH and 250 gold as I said earlier.I tried to whip a temple in Vij and it only accelerate GLH by 1 turn. Have not tried an Axe, but I don't like this plan, for the same reason as temple whipping, Axe is close to useless if our chariot can win his 1st battle.
It seems like you did not get this.
Anyway, it's not important now, let's focus on Pyramids for this set.
I don't mind losing the WII warrior, just saying it's not looking too likely we get him to 10 xp
EDIT
Overall I think the team is against whipping an Axe.
The team seems to agree with majority on pretty much everything Duckweed proposed, except for the warrior around Paliputra.
BIC and Bugg haven't voiced their opinions on it so either they agree with Duckweed or don't care either way - I don't know.
If something spawns around Pali's location, it will make settling the city rather difficult, I would really prefer to have it lighted as dingding said.
Udey1
Prince
Hey finals are finished. I will begin joining in here. I am reading up on what is happening right now. Hope I can help us along.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Sorry, I read fast what was said and overlooked this.
There's a barb warrior right now, so additionnal spawning wouldn't happen, right ? However, we need him gone in 8 turns so we don't need to risk a fight just now (barb warrior promoting and healing in case of victory).
I'd get the NW warrior to come for help first, and risk a fight with the barb warrior when we have support. The NW warrior would conveniently fogbust the 3 tiles that the Western warrior (W) leaves as he'll fogbust Pali's location.
My opinion :
T88 : NW warrior goes on the rice ; W warrior goes 1NW
T89 : NW warrior goes on the floodplains ; W warrior fortifies
T90 : W warrior has either died, killed the barb warrior or can start chasing it ; NW warrior crosses the river and goes to the forest then acts according to the situation.
At that point, it would make the tile we don't fogbust 4W1N of Vijay instead of Pali's spot. 4W of Vijay is also likely to be left unchecked if the W warrior doesn't kill the barb on T90.
It surprises me you had a barb city appear there, Kossin. How many tiles do they need to spawn ?
Duckweed asked about who to trade corn vs clam with :
I'd say Justinian. Zara will be very easy to get to friendly anyways, right ?
Similar threads
- Sticky
